"Christian" Religions which reject the Trinity Doctrine

[ding]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints

Jehovah's Witnesses

Christian Science

Armstrongism

Christadelphians

Oneness Pentecostals

Unification Church

Unity School of Christianity

Scientology - Dianetics

 

[ding]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints
Founded By: Joseph Smith, Jr., 1830.
Mormons believe that God has a physical, flesh and bones, eternal, perfect body. Men have the potential to become gods as well. Jesus is God's literal son, a separate being from God the Father and the "elder brother" of men. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being from God the Father and God the Son. The Holy Spirit is regarded as an impersonal power or spirit being. These three separate beings are "one" only in their purpose, and they make up the Godhead.

Quick Primer on LDS (Mormon) Church Doctrine

 

[emilynghiem]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints

Jehovah's Witnesses

Christian Science

Armstrongism

Christadelphians

Oneness Pentecostals

Unification Church

Unity School of Christianity

Scientology - Dianetics

Dear ding to be fair
when I talked with a coworker at a previous job,
who believed in Unity while her husband was Church of Christ,
they had struggled and struggled with him trying to explain to her
how the "three were one". He and I both used the analogy of
"Judicial Legislative and Executive" being 3 DISTINCT authorities
but there is only ONE Government not three! His wife still
could not get her brain to think that way. She (and her Mom)
just saw God as ONE not three, where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinct
from God the Heavenly Father.

What I got from this, was that the BRAINS that think in terms
of three, or three in one, or one only, just see things differently.
Similar to atheists seeing and saying thing as impersonal and nontheistically,
while Christians or Deists may see God as Personified. Buddhists also
see the forces and laws of Life and Nature as IMPERSONAL not personified.

I do not think it is fair to judge people if their brains DIVIDE
things differently.

I learned in a linguistics class, some cultures don't have a word for
PINK but call it LIGHT RED. When I think of Light Red I don't think
of Pink, but I think of a Red that is faded or weak. That's not the
same thing as a concentrated shade of PINK. So I realized that
I may never see colors the same as someone brought up with
a language that biases their brains to see Pink as a shade of Red.
Similar with the word AzURE that means light blue. To me that's
just another shade of Blue, but light, so what? To others it's
a separate color that has its OWN NAME.

So how we divide the spiritual spectrum is going to
be conditioned by language and perception as well.

It's still the same God, it's still the same color range.
But how we distinguish one thing from another
or if we "blend some together" as the same,
that's going to vary from person to person,
culture to culture, or brain to brain.

It's Still the same God or Jesus
whether we call God by Wisdom
Heavenly Father, God's laws, God's truth,
Universe, Nature, Good will etc.
or Jesus by Salvation, Justice,
Justice and Peace, Restorative Justice.
We divide the spectrum and names differently
but these all point to the universal laws or
sources of Truth or God and Justice or Jesus.

 

[ding]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints

Jehovah's Witnesses

Christian Science

Armstrongism

Christadelphians

Oneness Pentecostals

Unification Church

Unity School of Christianity

Scientology - Dianetics

Dear ding to be fair
when I talked with a coworker at a previous job,
who believed in Unity while her husband was Church of Christ,
they had struggled and struggled with him trying to explain to her
how the "three were one". He and I both used the analogy of
"Judicial Legislative and Executive" being 3 DISTINCT authorities
but there is only ONE Government not three! His wife still
could not get her brain to think that way. She (and her Mom)
just saw God as ONE not three, where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinct
from God the Heavenly Father.

What I got from this, was that the BRAINS that think in terms
of three, or three in one, or one only, just see things differently.
Similar to atheists seeing and saying thing as impersonal and nontheistically,
while Christians or Deists may see God as Personified. Buddhists also
see the forces and laws of Life and Nature as IMPERSONAL not personified.

I do not think it is fair to judge people if their brains DIVIDE
things differently.

I learned in a linguistics class, some cultures don't have a word for
PINK but call it LIGHT RED. When I think of Light Red I don't think
of Pink, but I think of a Red that is faded or weak. That's not the
same thing as a concentrated shade of PINK. So I realized that
I may never see colors the same as someone brought up with
a language that biases their brains to see Pink as a shade of Red.
Similar with the word AzURE that means light blue. To me that's
just another shade of Blue, but light, so what? To others it's
a separate color that has its OWN NAME.

So how we divide the spiritual spectrum is going to
be conditioned by language and perception as well.

It's still the same God, it's still the same color range.
But how we distinguish one thing from another
or if we "blend some together" as the same,
that's going to vary from person to person,
culture to culture, or brain to brain.

It's Still the same God or Jesus
whether we call God by Wisdom
Heavenly Father, God's laws, God's truth,
Universe, Nature, Good will etc.
or Jesus by Salvation, Justice,
Justice and Peace, Restorative Justice.
We divide the spectrum and names differently
but these all point to the universal laws or
sources of Truth or God and Justice or Jesus.

Emily, I have not judged anyone.

I am merely stating what their beliefs are.

 

[Compost]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

 

[norwegen]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

 

[emilynghiem]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

 

[emilynghiem]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Dear norwegen
Please see my previous post about John 10:29-30
It is not in conflict to say that God is greater
and that the Son and Father are one at the same time.

If you take God Jesus and Holy Spirit to mean
Truth Justice and Peace, in practical terms,
then Truth encompasses all things universal,
Then Justice is a manifestation of Truth
in human relations and in collective society,
and Peace comes with that for all humanity to be one.
One with Justice and Truth. This is the Kingdom of God.

The manifestations are still distinct,
but all are one with God "at the same time."
There is no conflict, except if we make an issue
to nitpick with a neighbor on which angle we emphasize more.

God is still greater than all of us and things combined.
But we, through Christ, become ONE with God.

Universal/Equal Justice for All is ONE with God's Perfect all encompassing truth
while these are distinct "at the same time"

God is manifested as both LOVE and also TRUTH and WISDOM
yet love is different from wisdom.
These are both God manifesting in different contexts.

So God being the culmination of all these manifestations,
the forces of Life and Nature,
of Universal laws and good will,
of truth and wisdom.

All these things are God yet
God is always greater, like the whole is
greater than the sum of the parts.

 

[Michelle420]

One time I was really stoned and Jehovah witnesses came to my door, I invited them in and impromptu read their literature out loud enthusiastically But the next time they showed up I was drunk and not in the mood. ( That was years ago in las vegas)

My ex-was Mormon. I went to church there which was a long service 3 hours. Relief Society (for women only) is like group therapy.

As a kid went to Christian Science Sunday school. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Currently, me and my mother visit different churches each week (church hopping). We haven't been to church since the 90's so it's kind of nice to go again.

That said, I don't understand the trinity thing either.

 

[Compost]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

 

[emilynghiem]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Dear Compost
Well your JW friend is right that there ARE Catholics
who aren't taught the real meaning of scripture.

I know a Catholic friend who was completely going with secular
laws and not following Scripture, even STATING he
wasn't Christian! Not all Catholics go as far as he was,
doing whatever he wanted, and just saying that as long
as he is Catholic and follows the Pope, that charity
for neighbors is all you need to do, then that's enough.

What I brought up with these JW against the Catholic teaching
and Pope is Matthew 18:15-20 that if these people are trespassing
such as bearing false witness or acting as false prophets,
the Bible says to approach them one on one and resolve
the wrong through agreement in Christ. The JW only believe
that THEY are true witnesses, not Christians or anyone else.
They don't get that if one of these people CLAIMS to follow
Scripture, you go ahead and rebuke them by it. Then if they
are not they will admit and refuse to follow scripture to CORRECT
the issue you are pointing out to them. But you don't SKIP that
step just because you assume they are not a true follower.
You give t hem a chance to prove if they will follow or not.

The JW also bow to their Elders and only follow what
their Elders or Organization or materials that are APPROVED
have allowed them to say or change. They believe in staying
uniform and ORDERLY where any CHANGE goes through
their ELDERS.

So Compost the proper way to do a rebuke in such case
with this hierarchy given to the JW is to ask the ELDERS
to meet with the Pope and follow Matthew 18:15-20

the Lutherans met with the Catholics to resolve issues
concerning justification this way and made peace.

So we need to do the same with JW and their elders
to make peace. Once both the JW and Catholic
elders AGREE to teach the same thing, then
all their sheep can follow their respective leaders!

Jesus authorizes certain people to lead their
given tribes. and in the end we shall all come
together in Christ and reconcile to establish
God's truth and be set free from these individual conflicts.

For the sheep following their local shepherds,
those leaders need to meet and follow the
Scriptural instructions for redressing grievances
and resolving trespasses and rebukes.

the JW follow their Elders. I know someone
who is best friends with an JW Elder willing to
meet and talk with anyone. We could set up a rebuke
to resolve this issue with Catholics and JW.

The issues I think we can resolve
1. the issue of calling Jehovah God
and calling the Holy Spirit Active Force.
If tribes are called to address God/Jehovah
a certain way, then we can agree that when
speaking with members of that group, we
agree to use their language or a common language.
but this may change for different groups.
Buddhists name their three refuges as
Buddha Dharma and Sangha.
God is understood as Wisdom,
and the Universal laws are called Dharma
which the Christians call the Word of God
that Jesus fulfills. The gentiles call Jesus
as Justice which is the secular name.
The churched believers focus on Yeshua
as Salvation which is the spiritual name under those laws.

When there are different tribes speaking in different tongues
we are supposed to call on interpreters to mediate.

so first step is to translate from one language
to another so we make sure we are talking
about the same name or aspect of God which
varies from context to context. God as Love
is different from God as Wisdom. Jesus as
Salvation is different from Jesus as Justice.
The Holy Spirit as Mercy is different from
Peace that comes with Justice and Salvation.

2. We can address medical and scientific proof
of what types of spiritual healing work naturally
to REMOVE demonic influences, and which types
are demonic or occult driven and clash with God's natural healing.
The JW I spoke with could accept healing if it's part of
proven medical science, if it's based on "forgiveness"
that is Biblical and it isn't unnaturally or demonically
"willing" something outside or against God's will.

The Catholics have been practicing exorcism and deliverance
but they have a controversial dangerous practice of only
priests stepping in who assume to take the role of Jesus.
The spiritual healing that is safe never puts a person in this role.
They work as teams, and invoke Jesus authority and don't dictate,
only command the demons to go to Jesus and let his authority be in charge.

There is also a prayer for protection around all the people,
and also any occult or dark energy influence has to be renounced
and removed first, or else it clashes with the positive healing prayer
and causes dangerous deflection, disruption or even death.

So Spiritual Healing is another issue that we need to address
as elders and church leaders to teach their followers consistently.

3. Once we agree that spiritual healing is based on forgiveness,
and this heals both mind and body and RELATIONS
then we can agree to follow the rebuke process to correct anything else.

We can't succeed if we don't forgive first.
So the first step is the participants in this rebuke and correction
process need to understand the importance of forgiveness
so we can receive God's wisdom and correction MUTUALLY.

We are all going to be right and wrong in different areas
and we need to hear and correct each other so we all grow.

this is how we build the Kingdom of God.

1. first we agree to accommodate differences in terms
and languages and forgive that in order to correct problems
after we establish how to communicate across tribes and cultures
2. We agree that forgiveness is the key to resolving
and healing anything causing the problems we want to correct
3. then we agree to address and take on each issue
and resolve them to restore good faith relations based
on truth, not on rejection or blaming one group more than another.

Only the people who can truly forgive can deal with this process!

 

[emilynghiem]

One time I was really stoned and Jehovah witnesses came to my door, I invited them in and impromptu read their literature out loud enthusiastically But the next time they showed up I was drunk and not in the mood. ( That was years ago in las vegas)

My ex-was Mormon. I went to church there which was a long service 3 hours. Relief Society (for women only) is like group therapy.

As a kid went to Christian Science Sunday school. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Currently, me and my mother visit different churches each week (church hopping). We haven't been to church since the 90's so it's kind of nice to go again.

That said, I don't understand the trinity thing either.

So cute drifter
Most people hear this stuff first,
THEN they get driven to drink and smoke.
I think you got it all in the wrong order?

There are two ways I've seen the Trinity explained that make sense to me
A. the Government analogy
we have Judicial, Legislative and Executive authority.
which all act independently they are NOT the same thing.
Yet we have ONE Government, not three.
If you can explain how we can have 3 branches of govt
with full authority to do what they do, yet there
is only ONE government, that's like how God is one,
but there are three manifestations or authorities that are separate from each other.

B. the roles
One man can be a
Father
Son
Husband or Friend
But still be ONE man not three
When we focus on God as the Creator role
then we refer to God as Father.
When we focus on God's laws of Justice
in Relationship with us as between people
or people and govt, we embody this
as Jesus or Justice for All
When we focus on unifying all people in PEACE
then this is the Holy Spirit like the
universal spirit of humanity that joins us all as one family.

If God is Love, then Love has many different types
Paternal Love of Mother and Father is different
Husband and Wife Romantic love is different
Familial love of brother and sister is different
Yet these are all LOVE

Each level of the trinity is a distinct manifestation.

It's like Mind Body Spirit.
There is only one person, but
we have the physical individual level of Body,
the next higher level of MIND or Conscience
that joins us in RELATIONS with another person.
and we have the COLLECTIVE level of spirit
that joins us with all humanity as one.

So when we are at peace and in harmony
as a whole, the mind body and spirit are ONE.
thus people are both individuals
and we are collectively one humanity
that affects each other as one body!

Does any of that explain why people
use the Trinity to represent the relationships
between individual and collective levels?
And why the central relation joining these
two other levels is so important to reconcile in peace?

Christ represents the conscience that both
joins man and man in relation with neighbors on the
earthly level we see in real life; and the connection
between man and God on spiritual higher levels
that go beyond what we see in life. We don't see
the people in China or Africa suffering, but we
know about them through faith. We are still
joined in spirit without physical proof we don't see
directly around us empirically. So in order to
balance what we can control and do in our
immediate local physical world, and the higher
goals we have as one family of all humanity
and society combined, that's why we need
to connect in peace and truth and not be in
conflict with each other. So we can work as
one team and do things that help everyone
and not hurt anyone on any level of society.

So the point of Jesus Christ being the central
connection for all humanity is to live by
Restorative Justice, by Justice and Peace for ALL.

this connects the individual person and body
with the collective level of all humanity in spirit.

Then we live as "one body" in natural harmony.
Mind body and spirit are one.
Individuals, relations, and all society/humanity are one.
We are still diverse and unique, but we are
unified at the same time. We have free will and independent thoughts and ways as individuals
but we have peace under one universal truth and law at the same time.

 

[Compost]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Dear Compost
Well your JW friend is right that there ARE Catholics
who aren't taught the real meaning of scripture.

I know a Catholic friend who was completely going with secular
laws and not following Scripture, even STATING he
wasn't Christian! Not all Catholics go as far as he was,
doing whatever he wanted, and just saying that as long
as he is Catholic and follows the Pope, that charity
for neighbors is all you need to do, then that's enough.

What I brought up with these JW against the Catholic teaching
and Pope is Matthew 18:15-20 that if these people are trespassing
such as bearing false witness or acting as false prophets,
the Bible says to approach them one on one and resolve
the wrong through agreement in Christ. The JW only believe
that THEY are true witnesses, not Christians or anyone else.
They don't get that if one of these people CLAIMS to follow
Scripture, you go ahead and rebuke them by it. Then if they
are not they will admit and refuse to follow scripture to CORRECT
the issue you are pointing out to them. But you don't SKIP that
step just because you assume they are not a true follower.
You give t hem a chance to prove if they will follow or not.

The JW also bow to their Elders and only follow what
their Elders or Organization or materials that are APPROVED
have allowed them to say or change. They believe in staying
uniform and ORDERLY where any CHANGE goes through
their ELDERS.

So Compost the proper way to do a rebuke in such case
with this hierarchy given to the JW is to ask the ELDERS
to meet with the Pope and follow Matthew 18:15-20

the Lutherans met with the Catholics to resolve issues
concerning justification this way and made peace.

So we need to do the same with JW and their elders
to make peace. Once both the JW and Catholic
elders AGREE to teach the same thing, then
all their sheep can follow their respective leaders!

Jesus authorizes certain people to lead their
given tribes. and in the end we shall all come
together in Christ and reconcile to establish
God's truth and be set free from these individual conflicts.

For the sheep following their local shepherds,
those leaders need to meet and follow the
Scriptural instructions for redressing grievances
and resolving trespasses and rebukes.

the JW follow their Elders. I know someone
who is best friends with an JW Elder willing to
meet and talk with anyone. We could set up a rebuke
to resolve this issue with Catholics and JW.

The issues I think we can resolve
1. the issue of calling Jehovah God
and calling the Holy Spirit Active Force.
If tribes are called to address God/Jehovah
a certain way, then we can agree that when
speaking with members of that group, we
agree to use their language or a common language.
but this may change for different groups.
Buddhists name their three refuges as
Buddha Dharma and Sangha.
God is understood as Wisdom,
and the Universal laws are called Dharma
which the Christians call the Word of God
that Jesus fulfills. The gentiles call Jesus
as Justice which is the secular name.
The churched believers focus on Yeshua
as Salvation which is the spiritual name under those laws.

When there are different tribes speaking in different tongues
we are supposed to call on interpreters to mediate.

so first step is to translate from one language
to another so we make sure we are talking
about the same name or aspect of God which
varies from context to context. God as Love
is different from God as Wisdom. Jesus as
Salvation is different from Jesus as Justice.
The Holy Spirit as Mercy is different from
Peace that comes with Justice and Salvation.

2. We can address medical and scientific proof
of what types of spiritual healing work naturally
to REMOVE demonic influences, and which types
are demonic or occult driven and clash with God's natural healing.
The JW I spoke with could accept healing if it's part of
proven medical science, if it's based on "forgiveness"
that is Biblical and it isn't unnaturally or demonically
"willing" something outside or against God's will.

The Catholics have been practicing exorcism and deliverance
but they have a controversial dangerous practice of only
priests stepping in who assume to take the role of Jesus.
The spiritual healing that is safe never puts a person in this role.
They work as teams, and invoke Jesus authority and don't dictate,
only command the demons to go to Jesus and let his authority be in charge.

There is also a prayer for protection around all the people,
and also any occult or dark energy influence has to be renounced
and removed first, or else it clashes with the positive healing prayer
and causes dangerous deflection, disruption or even death.

So Spiritual Healing is another issue that we need to address
as elders and church leaders to teach their followers consistently.

3. Once we agree that spiritual healing is based on forgiveness,
and this heals both mind and body and RELATIONS
then we can agree to follow the rebuke process to correct anything else.

We can't succeed if we don't forgive first.
So the first step is the participants in this rebuke and correction
process need to understand the importance of forgiveness
so we can receive God's wisdom and correction MUTUALLY.

We are all going to be right and wrong in different areas
and we need to hear and correct each other so we all grow.

this is how we build the Kingdom of God.

1. first we agree to accommodate differences in terms
and languages and forgive that in order to correct problems
after we establish how to communicate across tribes and cultures
2. We agree that forgiveness is the key to resolving
and healing anything causing the problems we want to correct
3. then we agree to address and take on each issue
and resolve them to restore good faith relations based
on truth, not on rejection or blaming one group more than another.

Only the people who can truly forgive can deal with this process!

You've got it all worked out. That's nice. Here's the thing. I forgive the JW for disrespecting me and my beliefs on my own front lawn. But since the willingness to forgive and a zeal for understanding is not mutual, I'm left remembering another bit of Scripture. Do not throw your pearls to pigs. I'll keep these folks in my prayers. You go on and "build the Kingdom of God" your way.

 

[koshergrl]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

 

[emilynghiem]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Dear Compost
Well your JW friend is right that there ARE Catholics
who aren't taught the real meaning of scripture.

I know a Catholic friend who was completely going with secular
laws and not following Scripture, even STATING he
wasn't Christian! Not all Catholics go as far as he was,
doing whatever he wanted, and just saying that as long
as he is Catholic and follows the Pope, that charity
for neighbors is all you need to do, then that's enough.

What I brought up with these JW against the Catholic teaching
and Pope is Matthew 18:15-20 that if these people are trespassing
such as bearing false witness or acting as false prophets,
the Bible says to approach them one on one and resolve
the wrong through agreement in Christ. The JW only believe
that THEY are true witnesses, not Christians or anyone else.
They don't get that if one of these people CLAIMS to follow
Scripture, you go ahead and rebuke them by it. Then if they
are not they will admit and refuse to follow scripture to CORRECT
the issue you are pointing out to them. But you don't SKIP that
step just because you assume they are not a true follower.
You give t hem a chance to prove if they will follow or not.

The JW also bow to their Elders and only follow what
their Elders or Organization or materials that are APPROVED
have allowed them to say or change. They believe in staying
uniform and ORDERLY where any CHANGE goes through
their ELDERS.

So Compost the proper way to do a rebuke in such case
with this hierarchy given to the JW is to ask the ELDERS
to meet with the Pope and follow Matthew 18:15-20

the Lutherans met with the Catholics to resolve issues
concerning justification this way and made peace.

So we need to do the same with JW and their elders
to make peace. Once both the JW and Catholic
elders AGREE to teach the same thing, then
all their sheep can follow their respective leaders!

Jesus authorizes certain people to lead their
given tribes. and in the end we shall all come
together in Christ and reconcile to establish
God's truth and be set free from these individual conflicts.

For the sheep following their local shepherds,
those leaders need to meet and follow the
Scriptural instructions for redressing grievances
and resolving trespasses and rebukes.

the JW follow their Elders. I know someone
who is best friends with an JW Elder willing to
meet and talk with anyone. We could set up a rebuke
to resolve this issue with Catholics and JW.

The issues I think we can resolve
1. the issue of calling Jehovah God
and calling the Holy Spirit Active Force.
If tribes are called to address God/Jehovah
a certain way, then we can agree that when
speaking with members of that group, we
agree to use their language or a common language.
but this may change for different groups.
Buddhists name their three refuges as
Buddha Dharma and Sangha.
God is understood as Wisdom,
and the Universal laws are called Dharma
which the Christians call the Word of God
that Jesus fulfills. The gentiles call Jesus
as Justice which is the secular name.
The churched believers focus on Yeshua
as Salvation which is the spiritual name under those laws.

When there are different tribes speaking in different tongues
we are supposed to call on interpreters to mediate.

so first step is to translate from one language
to another so we make sure we are talking
about the same name or aspect of God which
varies from context to context. God as Love
is different from God as Wisdom. Jesus as
Salvation is different from Jesus as Justice.
The Holy Spirit as Mercy is different from
Peace that comes with Justice and Salvation.

2. We can address medical and scientific proof
of what types of spiritual healing work naturally
to REMOVE demonic influences, and which types
are demonic or occult driven and clash with God's natural healing.
The JW I spoke with could accept healing if it's part of
proven medical science, if it's based on "forgiveness"
that is Biblical and it isn't unnaturally or demonically
"willing" something outside or against God's will.

The Catholics have been practicing exorcism and deliverance
but they have a controversial dangerous practice of only
priests stepping in who assume to take the role of Jesus.
The spiritual healing that is safe never puts a person in this role.
They work as teams, and invoke Jesus authority and don't dictate,
only command the demons to go to Jesus and let his authority be in charge.

There is also a prayer for protection around all the people,
and also any occult or dark energy influence has to be renounced
and removed first, or else it clashes with the positive healing prayer
and causes dangerous deflection, disruption or even death.

So Spiritual Healing is another issue that we need to address
as elders and church leaders to teach their followers consistently.

3. Once we agree that spiritual healing is based on forgiveness,
and this heals both mind and body and RELATIONS
then we can agree to follow the rebuke process to correct anything else.

We can't succeed if we don't forgive first.
So the first step is the participants in this rebuke and correction
process need to understand the importance of forgiveness
so we can receive God's wisdom and correction MUTUALLY.

We are all going to be right and wrong in different areas
and we need to hear and correct each other so we all grow.

this is how we build the Kingdom of God.

1. first we agree to accommodate differences in terms
and languages and forgive that in order to correct problems
after we establish how to communicate across tribes and cultures
2. We agree that forgiveness is the key to resolving
and healing anything causing the problems we want to correct
3. then we agree to address and take on each issue
and resolve them to restore good faith relations based
on truth, not on rejection or blaming one group more than another.

Only the people who can truly forgive can deal with this process!

You've got it all worked out. That's nice. Here's the thing. I forgive the JW for disrespecting me and my beliefs on my own front lawn. But since the willingness to forgive and a zeal for understanding is not mutual, I'm left remembering another bit of Scripture. Do not throw your pearls to pigs. I'll keep these folks in my prayers. You go on and "build the Kingdom of God" your way.

Dear Compost did you ask each JW for forgiveness?
usually when I show forgiveness to someone
they naturally reciprocate. it may take time.
like a good marriage or good friendship,
it isn't built by giving people a chance then giving up.
The commitment to treat each person as a neighbor in
Christ, and use each opportunity to witness is a lifelong process.

I understand you prioritize and you reach those who
you are called to connect with. But let this be done
with forgiveness, and not with rejection or giving up.

the Bible does say that if a NONbeliever asks us to leave,
then we shake off our sandals and go on.

Compost do you know that I have used this to compel corrections?
I have told people who sought to reject or denounce me for not agreeing with their correction,
that since "you and I" both claim to be believers, we are called in Christ to resolve this
and maintain relations by establishing God's truth to resolve the conflict between us.

If one of us, if THEY agree they are not a believer we can reconcile
and they DON'T have this faith then yes, I am free to leave to depart
if asked by an UNBELIEVER.

So I ask them do you believe or not?
If you admit you do not have faith, then yes I must obey
your request to depart company.

But since I have faith we are both believers, and we can resolve this in Christ,
I ask we continue until we resolve it. And that's usually why I can get people
to the point of admitting they believe the proper way is to go through Elders
and reconcile it that way, so all the sheep can follow.

Compost even if you find one of these sheep who cannot change
how they were taught unless their Elders approve it, if you can at least
get to agreement that we should pray and ASK for a rebuke and correction
between JW and Catholic elders, then that still counts as reaching
an agreement in Christ! So when 2-3 join in Christ, pray and agree on anything touching
the earth it shall be done by our Father in Heaven. That's not the same as rejection.

 

[hobelim]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Dear norwegen
Please see my previous post about John 10:29-30
It is not in conflict to say that God is greater
and that the Son and Father are one at the same time.

If you take God Jesus and Holy Spirit to mean
Truth Justice and Peace, in practical terms,
then Truth encompasses all things universal,
Then Justice is a manifestation of Truth
in human relations and in collective society,
and Peace comes with that for all humanity to be one.
One with Justice and Truth. This is the Kingdom of God.

The manifestations are still distinct,
but all are one with God "at the same time."
There is no conflict, except if we make an issue
to nitpick with a neighbor on which angle we emphasize more.

God is still greater than all of us and things combined.
But we, through Christ, become ONE with God.

Universal/Equal Justice for All is ONE with God's Perfect all encompassing truth
while these are distinct "at the same time"

God is manifested as both LOVE and also TRUTH and WISDOM
yet love is different from wisdom.
These are both God manifesting in different contexts.

So God being the culmination of all these manifestations,
the forces of Life and Nature,
of Universal laws and good will,
of truth and wisdom.

All these things are God yet
God is always greater, like the whole is
greater than the sum of the parts.

Dear Emily,

Scripture clearly teaches that there is only one God who has no equal and that there is no other God in existence either above or below him.

This precludes the existence of a three in one coequal trinity. God is not divisible into any number of equal parts. It is as impossible as your professed belief that one of them became a man.

To worship a trinity is to worship a false God.

The reason why the concept of a trinity is so hard for you explain to rational people isn't because it is a deep mystery too difficult for the human mind to comprehend or requires a special faith to accept.

It is because the belief in a unequalled coequal trinity that became an edible man is irrational, makes no sense, contradicts the entire law and the prophets, and is patently false.

 

[norwegen]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Exactly. If whatever is perfect remains perfect, then it doesn't change. If God becomes a Father when He begets a Son, then He changes. Hence the outcome at the Council of Nicaea.

And this, of course, does not address the Holy Spirit, the Helper.

 

[Compost]

I attempted to discuss this issue with a Jehovah Witness once. She told me Catholics overthink things which leads to getting it wrong.

Dear Compost cc: ding
the way I have RESOLVED this with Jehovah's Witness posters online
is citing John 10:29-30
And say BOTH interpretations are right
at the same time:

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

This is JESUS speaking. and he says BOTH
that the Father is Greater than ALL (which the JW argue makes God distinct)
and that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So I affirm both are right but they are emphasizing
one more than the other. These are NOT in conflict!

(As for the JW calling the Holy Spirit "active force"
I use that as an example of how they criticize others
for calling Jehovah "God", I point out the Bible refers
to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter" while "active force"
is DERIVED from scripture the JW cite about
a force moving over the waters. It doesn't literally
say ACTIVE Force verbatim. So they are EXPLAINING
what it means and it's not perfectly literal to the letter either!)

That's very good, Emily. Alas, the JW I spoke with was not willing to discuss the matter- even when I used direct quotes from Scripture! She was stuck on the idea that when educated people try to understand the Word they muck it up. And Catholics are too damned educated! (This might be the first time I've ever been insulted for being too educated! LOL.)

What bothers me is not that I believe JW are wrong about a Triune God, I'm more than happy to talk about it. What bothers me, at least in this case, of a woman repeatedly came to my home uninvited and unexpected telling me, in essence, that Catholics suck. It would never occur to me to tell a JW that they suck.

Dear Compost
Well your JW friend is right that there ARE Catholics
who aren't taught the real meaning of scripture.

I know a Catholic friend who was completely going with secular
laws and not following Scripture, even STATING he
wasn't Christian! Not all Catholics go as far as he was,
doing whatever he wanted, and just saying that as long
as he is Catholic and follows the Pope, that charity
for neighbors is all you need to do, then that's enough.

What I brought up with these JW against the Catholic teaching
and Pope is Matthew 18:15-20 that if these people are trespassing
such as bearing false witness or acting as false prophets,
the Bible says to approach them one on one and resolve
the wrong through agreement in Christ. The JW only believe
that THEY are true witnesses, not Christians or anyone else.
They don't get that if one of these people CLAIMS to follow
Scripture, you go ahead and rebuke them by it. Then if they
are not they will admit and refuse to follow scripture to CORRECT
the issue you are pointing out to them. But you don't SKIP that
step just because you assume they are not a true follower.
You give t hem a chance to prove if they will follow or not.

The JW also bow to their Elders and only follow what
their Elders or Organization or materials that are APPROVED
have allowed them to say or change. They believe in staying
uniform and ORDERLY where any CHANGE goes through
their ELDERS.

So Compost the proper way to do a rebuke in such case
with this hierarchy given to the JW is to ask the ELDERS
to meet with the Pope and follow Matthew 18:15-20

the Lutherans met with the Catholics to resolve issues
concerning justification this way and made peace.

So we need to do the same with JW and their elders
to make peace. Once both the JW and Catholic
elders AGREE to teach the same thing, then
all their sheep can follow their respective leaders!

Jesus authorizes certain people to lead their
given tribes. and in the end we shall all come
together in Christ and reconcile to establish
God's truth and be set free from these individual conflicts.

For the sheep following their local shepherds,
those leaders need to meet and follow the
Scriptural instructions for redressing grievances
and resolving trespasses and rebukes.

the JW follow their Elders. I know someone
who is best friends with an JW Elder willing to
meet and talk with anyone. We could set up a rebuke
to resolve this issue with Catholics and JW.

The issues I think we can resolve
1. the issue of calling Jehovah God
and calling the Holy Spirit Active Force.
If tribes are called to address God/Jehovah
a certain way, then we can agree that when
speaking with members of that group, we
agree to use their language or a common language.
but this may change for different groups.
Buddhists name their three refuges as
Buddha Dharma and Sangha.
God is understood as Wisdom,
and the Universal laws are called Dharma
which the Christians call the Word of God
that Jesus fulfills. The gentiles call Jesus
as Justice which is the secular name.
The churched believers focus on Yeshua
as Salvation which is the spiritual name under those laws.

When there are different tribes speaking in different tongues
we are supposed to call on interpreters to mediate.

so first step is to translate from one language
to another so we make sure we are talking
about the same name or aspect of God which
varies from context to context. God as Love
is different from God as Wisdom. Jesus as
Salvation is different from Jesus as Justice.
The Holy Spirit as Mercy is different from
Peace that comes with Justice and Salvation.

2. We can address medical and scientific proof
of what types of spiritual healing work naturally
to REMOVE demonic influences, and which types
are demonic or occult driven and clash with God's natural healing.
The JW I spoke with could accept healing if it's part of
proven medical science, if it's based on "forgiveness"
that is Biblical and it isn't unnaturally or demonically
"willing" something outside or against God's will.

The Catholics have been practicing exorcism and deliverance
but they have a controversial dangerous practice of only
priests stepping in who assume to take the role of Jesus.
The spiritual healing that is safe never puts a person in this role.
They work as teams, and invoke Jesus authority and don't dictate,
only command the demons to go to Jesus and let his authority be in charge.

There is also a prayer for protection around all the people,
and also any occult or dark energy influence has to be renounced
and removed first, or else it clashes with the positive healing prayer
and causes dangerous deflection, disruption or even death.

So Spiritual Healing is another issue that we need to address
as elders and church leaders to teach their followers consistently.

3. Once we agree that spiritual healing is based on forgiveness,
and this heals both mind and body and RELATIONS
then we can agree to follow the rebuke process to correct anything else.

We can't succeed if we don't forgive first.
So the first step is the participants in this rebuke and correction
process need to understand the importance of forgiveness
so we can receive God's wisdom and correction MUTUALLY.

We are all going to be right and wrong in different areas
and we need to hear and correct each other so we all grow.

this is how we build the Kingdom of God.

1. first we agree to accommodate differences in terms
and languages and forgive that in order to correct problems
after we establish how to communicate across tribes and cultures
2. We agree that forgiveness is the key to resolving
and healing anything causing the problems we want to correct
3. then we agree to address and take on each issue
and resolve them to restore good faith relations based
on truth, not on rejection or blaming one group more than another.

Only the people who can truly forgive can deal with this process!

You've got it all worked out. That's nice. Here's the thing. I forgive the JW for disrespecting me and my beliefs on my own front lawn. But since the willingness to forgive and a zeal for understanding is not mutual, I'm left remembering another bit of Scripture. Do not throw your pearls to pigs. I'll keep these folks in my prayers. You go on and "build the Kingdom of God" your way.

Dear Compost did you ask each JW for forgiveness?
usually when I show forgiveness to someone
they naturally reciprocate. it may take time.
like a good marriage or good friendship,
it isn't built by giving people a chance then giving up.
The commitment to treat each person as a neighbor in
Christ, and use each opportunity to witness is a lifelong process.

I understand you prioritize and you reach those who
you are called to connect with. But let this be done
with forgiveness, and not with rejection or giving up.

the Bible does say that if a NONbeliever asks us to leave,
then we shake off our sandals and go on.

Compost do you know that I have used this to compel corrections?
I have told people who sought to reject or denounce me for not agreeing with their correction,
that since "you and I" both claim to be believers, we are called in Christ to resolve this
and maintain relations by establishing God's truth to resolve the conflict between us.

If one of us, if THEY agree they are not a believer we can reconcile
and they DON'T have this faith then yes, I am free to leave to depart
if asked by an UNBELIEVER.

So I ask them do you believe or not?
If you admit you do not have faith, then yes I must obey
your request to depart company.

But since I have faith we are both believers, and we can resolve this in Christ,
I ask we continue until we resolve it. And that's usually why I can get people
to the point of admitting they believe the proper way is to go through Elders
and reconcile it that way, so all the sheep can follow.

Compost even if you find one of these sheep who cannot change
how they were taught unless their Elders approve it, if you can at least
get to agreement that we should pray and ASK for a rebuke and correction
between JW and Catholic elders, then that still counts as reaching
an agreement in Christ! So when 2-3 join in Christ, pray and agree on anything touching
the earth it shall be done by our Father in Heaven. That's not the same as rejection.

I'm sure you mean well, Emily. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I will not be hunting this JW down to question her, convert her or attempt to unite all JWs and Catholics. Please. Move on.

 

[emilynghiem]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Interesting norwegen and koshergrl

Just because man's experience and relationship with God changes
doesn't mean that God has changed or changed plans.

The story of humanity from beginning to end is already written.
But yes we go through stages and changes from the OT to NT
in order to experience and tell that whole story with its ups and downs
that are part of the script in life, the process of establishing Justice and Peace.

In Nature which is another name for God, the seasons change,
the species may grow or evolve or die off. But the laws of nature
that oversee all these events are already in place.

If there are any changes, by the Definition of God being
supreme will and authority over all that happens in Life and the Universe,
then all these changes are a part of that process.

Did God change course and send Jesus AFTER the fall of man?
Or did God already know what would happen and all this
was planned as one process that would play out this way?

If God is truly supreme then the whole process was
already written, and we are just playing out the script in stages.
As we develop to spiritual and social maturity as humanity,
sure our perception and language changes. How we interpret
and revise laws to meet the growing need for more direct self government
of local populations, all this is going to change with how we relate to God.

 

[emilynghiem]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Exactly. If whatever is perfect remains perfect, then it doesn't change. If God becomes a Father when He begets a Son, then He changes. Hence the outcome at the Council of Nicaea.

And this, of course, does not address the Holy Spirit, the Helper.

Very interesting norwegen
Humanity can only focus on one aspect of God at a time because we are limited.
God as Love, God as Wisdom, and God as universal laws of nature or science
are three separate conversations or fields of study.

If the same teacher teaches us counting and recognizing numbers when we are
in preschool or kindergarten,
then arithmetic when we are in grade school,
then teaches us algebra, geometry, and trig in high school,
then calculus and advanced physics in college,
doesn't that same Teacher have to
change the way they teach when the students
are at different ages and stages?

Does that mean the math or teacher changed their nature?

Or just the way they related to the students so we could
follow them as we grew?