Child Porn Proposal

[Nik]

Just to let everyone know, virtual child porn is not legal, and a man in Utah has been prosecuted for owning virtual child porn (and nothing else).

Not quite. In 2002, the Supreme Court ruled in Ashcroft v Free Speech Coalition that the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 was unconstitutional, including the ban on virtual child porn. However, now we come to the distinction between pornography and obscene material. Not all porn is legally obscene, and the definition of obscenity is still largely left up to the states. Virtual images of children engaged in sexual acts (where no harm to children is actually done) is not necessarily obscene under the law, though it might be. Utah happens to have very strict laws on obscenity, stemming from strict community standards. So, for the case you are referencing, and it would have been nice if you had an actual cite, the material in question was most likely ruled obscene and is illegal because of that, not strictly because it's virtual child porn.

One more time...virtual child porn is legal as long as it doesn't meet the community standards for obscene material.

Nope.

In response to that case, Congress passed a new law.

Sec. 1466A. Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children
(a) IN GENERAL- Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that–
(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and
(B) is obscene; or
(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

 

[pinqy]

Like I said...as long as it's not obscene. Read it again: "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that–
(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct" must also be obscene. The old law didn't require the obscenity standard. So it IS legal if it is NOT obscene, and the definition of obscenity is still ruled by the Miller decision.

As for the second part..again it must lack "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" which is the general standard for obscenity. But if you've seen any porn post-Miller, the value test is not much of a bar and the porn industry has plenty of psychologists willing to sign off that a work, in its whole, can be of such value.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Takes a real sh++head to be interested in child porn be it virtual or real. What's the attraction? I think child porn is pretty sick.

 

[Nik]

Like I said...as long as it's not obscene. Read it again: "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that–
(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct" must also be obscene. The old law didn't require the obscenity standard. So it IS legal if it is NOT obscene, and the definition of obscenity is still ruled by the Miller decision.

As for the second part..again it must lack "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" which is the general standard for obscenity. But if you've seen any porn post-Miller, the value test is not much of a bar and the porn industry has plenty of psychologists willing to sign off that a work, in its whole, can be of such value.

Sorry, but its you that needs to read it again.

(B) is obscene; or
(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

 

[Nik]

Takes a real sh++head to be interested in child porn be it virtual or real. What's the attraction? I think child porn is pretty sick.

Why?

I've never understood the temptation to insult people based on what they desire. Do people choose what they desire?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Why?

I've never understood the temptation to insult people based on what they desire. Do people choose what they desire?/QUOTE]

If you're trying in anyway to defend child porn, or the creeps who like that kind of stuff, you're a big part of the problem. If you truly feel this way about child porn, be it real or virtual, I think you might need some serious kind of professional help.

 

[pinqy]

Sorry, but its you that needs to read it again.

(B) is obscene; or
(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

Since I covered that, I'm not sure what part you think I missed....the criteria of "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" is generally part of the definition of obscene, and applies to adult porn as well, though it is easily gotten around. Adult porn for a while now has come with the disclaimer that it does have "serious scientific value" as determined by psychologists paid by the porn industry.

 

[Nik]

Why?

I've never understood the temptation to insult people based on what they desire. Do people choose what they desire?/QUOTE]

If you're trying in anyway to defend child porn, or the creeps who like that kind of stuff, you're a big part of the problem. If you truly feel this way about child porn, be it real or virtual, I think you might need some serious kind of professional help.

I'm not defending child porn, but I do defend people who like it and don't engage in it. Why should they be demeaned for their desires?

Instead of acting like a psychologist over the interwebs, how bout you just answer the question?

 

[Nik]

Sorry, but its you that needs to read it again.

(B) is obscene; or
(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

Since I covered that, I'm not sure what part you think I missed....the criteria of "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" is generally part of the definition of obscene, and applies to adult porn as well, though it is easily gotten around. Adult porn for a while now has come with the disclaimer that it does have "serious scientific value" as determined by psychologists paid by the porn industry.

Its not surplusage that they put it in there, it is separate from the definition of obscene.

If your argument is that virtual child porn is legal except when its obscene, and its always obscene if it "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value", well then it would be more appropriately said that virtual child porn is illegal since it usually doesn't have any of those qualities.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Instead of acting like a psychologist over the interwebs, how bout you just answer the question?
/QUOTE]

Nope. Not acting like some kind of psychologist or even attempting it. I do, however, know the difference between what I feel is right and wrong. That's the problem with today's world. Often times a very poor moral issue is pushed to the front by just boarding on legal verses illegal. I have to disagree with you. It's my opinion, and my opinion only - anybody who likes child porn, acting on it or not acting on it, is a sick puppy. Any desire for child porn is not normal behavior. I had a child that was molested. The only reason that person is still alive today is because the police got to him before I did. I don't know if I would have killed him or not but I do know that I would have hurt him pretty badly and he would have been hospitalized. He's still in prison and will be there for a long time to come. Unless you can address this subject from experience, I think you need to rethink your position concerning child porn. You don't have a clue as to what you're so boldly defending.

 

[Nik]

Instead of acting like a psychologist over the interwebs, how bout you just answer the question?
/QUOTE]

Nope. Not acting like some kind of psychologist or even attempting it.

If you truly feel this way about child porn, be it real or virtual, I think you might need some serious kind of professional help.

Yes, it seems you are.

I do, however, know the difference between what I feel is right and wrong. That's the problem with today's world. Often times a very poor moral issue is pushed to the front by just boarding on legal verses illegal. I have to disagree with you.

Congratulations on knowing your own feelings.

It's my opinion, and my opinion only - anybody who likes child porn, acting on it or not acting on it, is a sick puppy.

Sick, perhaps. A creep, no. Again, people cannot help their own desires.

Any desire for child porn is not normal behavior.

Define normal.

I had a child that was molested. The only reason that person is still alive today is because the police got to him before I did. I don't know if I would have killed him or not but I do know that I would have hurt him pretty badly and he would have been hospitalized. He's still in prison and will be there for a long time to come. Unless you can address this subject from experience, I think you need to rethink your position concerning child porn. You don't have a clue as to what you're so boldly defending.

Try remove your emotions from your rational thought. Then you might actually be able to come up with an intelligent statement on this. And yes, I have had experience with this issue, my girlfriend was molested. I've also known enough people that have been molested that I can often tell if someone was or not. Its really, really fucked up.

That being said, the issue here isn't child molestation. Its child porn.

 

[Father Time]

i am sticking with.....no ...to it all....no freebie child porno even in anime.....what about that brutal rape game they just refused to release it was anime still some sick shit

Why should anime child porn be illegal? Tis literally just marks on paper (aka drawings).

And if you mean rapelay the developers never intended to release it in the states (and in fact no official English version of the game exists.

 

[AllieBaba]

I love the mindset that allows that the things that are really bad and criminal should be made legal to make the problem go away.

Kinda like, "murder is a problem..so let's make it legal to murder babies."

Yeah, that's done a lot of good. By all means, make it okay to create and distribute child porn to encourage and alleviate all pressure on the freaks who victimize kids.

Cognitive fail.

The point would be to lessen the number of kids who get molested. Or do you think thats not a valid goal?

Hmmm..explain to me how making it acceptable to pretend to kill and molest children will reduce the numbers of children being molested and killed.

As I said, it's all part of the mindset that in order to get rid of the problem, you just eliminate the kids. Or in this particular case, since we have a terrible problem with porn...make it legal! Voila! No more porn crimes!

 

[AllieBaba]

The cognitive fail here is that if people are allowed to freely access and create child porn they will be less inclined to indulge in child molestation.

Nope. That's why convicted sex offenders are carefully monitored with regards to their porn access. Accessing porn, whether it's real or virtual, TRIGGERS the desire to attack children. It doesn't make it go away.

 

[AllieBaba]

Want some stories about the fantasies my child molester clients have, and where they picked them up? And then how they apply those fantasies?

 

[Father Time]

Nope. That's why convicted sex offenders are carefully monitored with regards to their porn access. Accessing porn, whether it's real or virtual, TRIGGERS the desire to attack children. It doesn't make it go away.

Yeah, they say the same thing about regular porn and rape, there's no proof for that one either.

 

[AllieBaba]

We're talking about people who rape kids. They're a different breed, and there's plenty of evidence for it. Interview a child molester someday.

 

[AllieBaba]

How Pornography Harms Children

"In a study of convicted child molesters, 77 percent of those who molested boys and 87 percent of those who molested girls admitted to the habitual use of pornography in the commission of their crimes.iii Besides stimulating the perpetrator, pornography facilitates child molestation in several ways. For example, pedophiles use pornographic photos to demonstrate to their victims what they want them to do. They also use them to arouse a child or to lower a child's inhibitions and communicate to the unsuspecting child that a particular sexual activity is okay: "This person is enjoying it; so will you."

 

[Father Time]

We're talking about people who rape kids. They're a different breed, and there's plenty of evidence for it. Interview a child molester someday.

No we're only talking about people who want to look at virtual child porn, it's a lot bigger in Japan and they're rape rate is a lot lower.

 

[Father Time]

How Pornography Harms Children

"In a study of convicted child molesters, 77 percent of those who molested boys and 87 percent of those who molested girls admitted to the habitual use of pornography in the commission of their crimes.iii Besides stimulating the perpetrator, pornography facilitates child molestation in several ways. For example, pedophiles use pornographic photos to demonstrate to their victims what they want them to do. They also use them to arouse a child or to lower a child's inhibitions and communicate to the unsuspecting child that a particular sexual activity is okay: "This person is enjoying it; so will you."

What's the percent of individuals who look at virtual child porn and then molest kids? That's the real number you need to look at. These stats may only show that child molesters are attracted to pornography not that it's influenced them.