CDC: Accidental car deaths 2013...35,369. Accidental gun deaths 2013...505.

[2aguy]

I'm glad you are very safe and hope you continue to be. But that doesn't mean that having guns around makes you safer. That is a false claim statistically. The most likely person by far to be shot by your gun is yourself. That does not make you safer.

Only if the owner makes a decision that they want to end their own life, in which case, gun ownership is moot.

When 6,500+ Americans accidentally die of suffocation and only 505 accidentally die from firearms, firearm owners are doing a pretty damn good job.

View attachment 40772
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If you use a gun to stop or prevent a violent criminal attack or save a life you are safer...and that happens more than guns are used to murder people......

 

[Brain357]

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If there are 800,000 defensive uses of firearms per year, and just a miniscule 2% of them result in a saved life, that's 16,000 lives saved per year. All the murders and accidental deaths add up to what? 8,000? 8,500?

And that 2% is a super conservative figure.

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

The National Crime Victimization Survey does not even ask the question ..."did you use a gun in the last year for self defense" it is not a gun study and cannot even come close to being used to study self defense with a gun....

the average number of times a gun is used defensively based on 10 studies that exclude police and military, done by separate researchers in both public and private groups is 2 million times a year.....and that isn't even all of the actual gun studies...

Well gun studies can't be used since they have very different results. They go from like 500k to 3.6 million. That isn't accurate. If gun studies were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. Seems like asking about guns right away just leads to more false positives.

The NCVS survey is a crime study and would include any DGUs. Also it involves like 90,000 households. The biggest gun studies are only 5,000 people. The larger the survey the more accurate.

 

[Brain357]

I'm glad you are very safe and hope you continue to be. But that doesn't mean that having guns around makes you safer. That is a false claim statistically. The most likely person by far to be shot by your gun is yourself. That does not make you safer.

Only if the owner makes a decision that they want to end their own life, in which case, gun ownership is moot.

When 6,500+ Americans accidentally die of suffocation and only 505 accidentally die from firearms, firearm owners are doing a pretty damn good job.

View attachment 40772
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If you use a gun to stop or prevent a violent criminal attack or save a life you are safer...and that happens more than guns are used to murder people......

If you own a gun the most likely person to be shot by it is yourself. That does not make you safer.

 

[2aguy]

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If there are 800,000 defensive uses of firearms per year, and just a miniscule 2% of them result in a saved life, that's 16,000 lives saved per year. All the murders and accidental deaths add up to what? 8,000? 8,500?

And that 2% is a super conservative figure.

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

The National Crime Victimization Survey does not even ask the question ..."did you use a gun in the last year for self defense" it is not a gun study and cannot even come close to being used to study self defense with a gun....

the average number of times a gun is used defensively based on 10 studies that exclude police and military, done by separate researchers in both public and private groups is 2 million times a year.....and that isn't even all of the actual gun studies...

Well gun studies can't be used since they have very different results. They go from like 500k to 3.6 million. That isn't accurate. If gun studies were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. Seems like asking about guns right away just leads to more false positives.

The NCVS survey is a crime study and would include any DGUs. Also it involves like 90,000 households. The biggest gun studies are only 5,000 people. The larger the survey the more accurate.

Brain...a study that doesn't ask the basic question is not even close to being usable in any way...

only in your world is asking "did you use a gun in the last year to stop a crime" the wrong way to find out if people used a gun in the last year to stop a crime.....perhaps they should have asked if they started a garden to figure out if they used a gun........

These are research methods used for all manner of gathering statistics and information........by professional researchers....

 

[2aguy]

I'm glad you are very safe and hope you continue to be. But that doesn't mean that having guns around makes you safer. That is a false claim statistically. The most likely person by far to be shot by your gun is yourself. That does not make you safer.

Only if the owner makes a decision that they want to end their own life, in which case, gun ownership is moot.

When 6,500+ Americans accidentally die of suffocation and only 505 accidentally die from firearms, firearm owners are doing a pretty damn good job.

View attachment 40772
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If you use a gun to stop or prevent a violent criminal attack or save a life you are safer...and that happens more than guns are used to murder people......

If you own a gun the most likely person to be shot by it is yourself. That does not make you safer.

That is not true.....you keep forgetting that there are over 320 million guns in private hands...which means that there are, according to some studies, 90 million gun owners....and even if you include suicides...that is 30,000 deaths......so 90 million minus 30,000 is not more likely to die by your own gun........

and since suicides don't count and gun murders are only 8,454 for 2013 and accidental gun deaths are only 505 for 2013....

90 million - 8,959 = 89,991,041 people who did not die by their own gun........so you are wrong on all counts brain......

 

[Brain357]

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If there are 800,000 defensive uses of firearms per year, and just a miniscule 2% of them result in a saved life, that's 16,000 lives saved per year. All the murders and accidental deaths add up to what? 8,000? 8,500?

And that 2% is a super conservative figure.

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

The National Crime Victimization Survey does not even ask the question ..."did you use a gun in the last year for self defense" it is not a gun study and cannot even come close to being used to study self defense with a gun....

the average number of times a gun is used defensively based on 10 studies that exclude police and military, done by separate researchers in both public and private groups is 2 million times a year.....and that isn't even all of the actual gun studies...

Well gun studies can't be used since they have very different results. They go from like 500k to 3.6 million. That isn't accurate. If gun studies were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. Seems like asking about guns right away just leads to more false positives.

The NCVS survey is a crime study and would include any DGUs. Also it involves like 90,000 households. The biggest gun studies are only 5,000 people. The larger the survey the more accurate.

Brain...a study that doesn't ask the basic question is not even close to being usable in any way...

only in your world is asking "did you use a gun in the last year to stop a crime" the wrong way to find out if people used a gun in the last year to stop a crime.....perhaps they should have asked if they started a garden to figure out if they used a gun........

These are research methods used for all manner of gathering statistics and information........by professional researchers....

Again every gun survey arrives at very different answers. They go from 500k-3.6 million. That is a huge difference. If they were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. But they aren't accurate because they are loaded with false positives, probably because they start by asking about guns. Every gun owner who's ever had a DGU gets interested right away and tells his story whether it was 20 years ago or 3 months.

The NCVS asks about and crimes committed or attempted. Then it gets into the details of what happened. It is clearly far more accurate. And they interview 90,000 households.

 

[2aguy]

If there are 800,000 defensive uses of firearms per year, and just a miniscule 2% of them result in a saved life, that's 16,000 lives saved per year. All the murders and accidental deaths add up to what? 8,000? 8,500?

And that 2% is a super conservative figure.

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

The National Crime Victimization Survey does not even ask the question ..."did you use a gun in the last year for self defense" it is not a gun study and cannot even come close to being used to study self defense with a gun....

the average number of times a gun is used defensively based on 10 studies that exclude police and military, done by separate researchers in both public and private groups is 2 million times a year.....and that isn't even all of the actual gun studies...

Well gun studies can't be used since they have very different results. They go from like 500k to 3.6 million. That isn't accurate. If gun studies were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. Seems like asking about guns right away just leads to more false positives.

The NCVS survey is a crime study and would include any DGUs. Also it involves like 90,000 households. The biggest gun studies are only 5,000 people. The larger the survey the more accurate.

Brain...a study that doesn't ask the basic question is not even close to being usable in any way...

only in your world is asking "did you use a gun in the last year to stop a crime" the wrong way to find out if people used a gun in the last year to stop a crime.....perhaps they should have asked if they started a garden to figure out if they used a gun........

These are research methods used for all manner of gathering statistics and information........by professional researchers....

Again every gun survey arrives at very different answers. They go from 500k-3.6 million. That is a huge difference. If they were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. But they aren't accurate because they are loaded with false positives, probably because they start by asking about guns. Every gun owner who's ever had a DGU gets interested right away and tells his story whether it was 20 years ago or 3 months.

The NCVS asks about and crimes committed or attempted. Then it gets into the details of what happened. It is clearly far more accurate. And they interview 90,000 households.

Again.....you are nuts.........perhaps if the NCVS never asked about crime at all they would get an even better picture of defensive gun uses....perhaps they should ask about unicorn sightings and see if anyone mentions guns...then they can use that to get an accurate picture of defensive gun uses......

 

[Brain357]

I'm glad you are very safe and hope you continue to be. But that doesn't mean that having guns around makes you safer. That is a false claim statistically. The most likely person by far to be shot by your gun is yourself. That does not make you safer.

Only if the owner makes a decision that they want to end their own life, in which case, gun ownership is moot.

When 6,500+ Americans accidentally die of suffocation and only 505 accidentally die from firearms, firearm owners are doing a pretty damn good job.

View attachment 40772
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

I didn't say it makes you that much more unsafe. But claiming it makes you safer is clearly false.

If you use a gun to stop or prevent a violent criminal attack or save a life you are safer...and that happens more than guns are used to murder people......

If you own a gun the most likely person to be shot by it is yourself. That does not make you safer.

That is not true.....you keep forgetting that there are over 320 million guns in private hands...which means that there are, according to some studies, 90 million gun owners....and even if you include suicides...that is 30,000 deaths......so 90 million minus 30,000 is not more likely to die by your own gun........

and since suicides don't count and gun murders are only 8,454 for 2013 and accidental gun deaths are only 505 for 2013....

90 million - 8,959 = 89,991,041 people who did not die by their own gun........so you are wrong on all counts brain......

Who is shot by a gun(rough numbers each year):
Owner Suicide : 20,000 per year
Victim Homicide: 8,500 per year
Innocent person Accident: 500 per year
Criminals in defense: about 230 per year

So the most likely person by far to be shot and killed by a gun is the owner.

 

[Brain357]

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

The National Crime Victimization Survey does not even ask the question ..."did you use a gun in the last year for self defense" it is not a gun study and cannot even come close to being used to study self defense with a gun....

the average number of times a gun is used defensively based on 10 studies that exclude police and military, done by separate researchers in both public and private groups is 2 million times a year.....and that isn't even all of the actual gun studies...

Well gun studies can't be used since they have very different results. They go from like 500k to 3.6 million. That isn't accurate. If gun studies were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. Seems like asking about guns right away just leads to more false positives.

The NCVS survey is a crime study and would include any DGUs. Also it involves like 90,000 households. The biggest gun studies are only 5,000 people. The larger the survey the more accurate.

Brain...a study that doesn't ask the basic question is not even close to being usable in any way...

only in your world is asking "did you use a gun in the last year to stop a crime" the wrong way to find out if people used a gun in the last year to stop a crime.....perhaps they should have asked if they started a garden to figure out if they used a gun........

These are research methods used for all manner of gathering statistics and information........by professional researchers....

Again every gun survey arrives at very different answers. They go from 500k-3.6 million. That is a huge difference. If they were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. But they aren't accurate because they are loaded with false positives, probably because they start by asking about guns. Every gun owner who's ever had a DGU gets interested right away and tells his story whether it was 20 years ago or 3 months.

The NCVS asks about and crimes committed or attempted. Then it gets into the details of what happened. It is clearly far more accurate. And they interview 90,000 households.

Again.....you are nuts.........perhaps if the NCVS never asked about crime at all they would get an even better picture of defensive gun uses....perhaps they should ask about unicorn sightings and see if anyone mentions guns...then they can use that to get an accurate picture of defensive gun uses......

Nothing nuts about it. 90,000 households vs 5,000. Gun surveys are PROVEN inaccurate. They have vastly varying answers, 500k-3.6 million.

 

[2aguy]

Kleck's study...the most accurate methods for researching self defense with guns...

Armed Resistance to Crime The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun

Each interview began with a few general "throat-clearing" questions about problems facing the R's community and crime. The interviewers then asked the following question: "Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do not include military service, police work, or work as a security guard." Rs who answered "yes" were then asked: "Was this to protect against an animal or a person?" Rs who reported a DGU against a person were asked: "How many incidents involving defensive uses of guns against persons happened to members of your household in the past five years?" and

"Did this incident [any of these incidents] happen in the past twelve months?" At this point, Rs were asked "Was it you who used a gun defensively, or did someone else in your household do this?"

All Rs reporting a DGU were asked a long, detailed series of questions establishing exactly what happened in the DGU incident. Rs who reported having experienced more than one DGU in the previous five years were asked about their most recent experience. When the original R was the one who had used a gun defensively, as was usually the case, interviewers obtained his or her firsthand account of the event. When the original R indicated that some other member of the household was the one who had the, experience, interviewers made every effort to speak directly to the involved person, either speaking to that person immediately or obtaining times and dates to call back. Up to three call-backs were made to contact the DGU-involved person. We anticipated that it would sometimes prove impossible to make contact with these persons, so interviewers were instructed to always obtain a proxy account of the DGU from the original R, on the assumption that a proxy account would be better than none at all. It was rarely necessary to rely on these proxy accounts--only six sample cases of DGUs were reported through proxies, out of a total of 222 sample cases.

 

[Missourian]

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

Not going to disagree about not being involved in criminal activity, but sometimes criminal activity shows up unsolicited.

Anti-second amendment folks like the small numbers, pro-second like the huge numbers...I choose a reasonable number far below the average.

And that a paltry 2% of defensive firearm uses saved a life is extremely conservative.

 

[Brain357]

Kleck's study...the most accurate methods for researching self defense with guns...

Armed Resistance to Crime The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun

Oh yeah he says 2.5 million defenses each year. So that means the last 30 years there have been 75 million defenses. That's like on for every single gun owner. Yet it's very hard to find anyone who has had a defense even on this board. That number is obviously wrong. Oh and I have 15 other gun studies that disagree and say it is wrong.

 

[2aguy]

The National Crime Victimization Survey does not even ask the question ..."did you use a gun in the last year for self defense" it is not a gun study and cannot even come close to being used to study self defense with a gun....

the average number of times a gun is used defensively based on 10 studies that exclude police and military, done by separate researchers in both public and private groups is 2 million times a year.....and that isn't even all of the actual gun studies...

Well gun studies can't be used since they have very different results. They go from like 500k to 3.6 million. That isn't accurate. If gun studies were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. Seems like asking about guns right away just leads to more false positives.

The NCVS survey is a crime study and would include any DGUs. Also it involves like 90,000 households. The biggest gun studies are only 5,000 people. The larger the survey the more accurate.

Brain...a study that doesn't ask the basic question is not even close to being usable in any way...

only in your world is asking "did you use a gun in the last year to stop a crime" the wrong way to find out if people used a gun in the last year to stop a crime.....perhaps they should have asked if they started a garden to figure out if they used a gun........

These are research methods used for all manner of gathering statistics and information........by professional researchers....

Again every gun survey arrives at very different answers. They go from 500k-3.6 million. That is a huge difference. If they were accurate they would all arrive at a similar answer. But they aren't accurate because they are loaded with false positives, probably because they start by asking about guns. Every gun owner who's ever had a DGU gets interested right away and tells his story whether it was 20 years ago or 3 months.

The NCVS asks about and crimes committed or attempted. Then it gets into the details of what happened. It is clearly far more accurate. And they interview 90,000 households.

Again.....you are nuts.........perhaps if the NCVS never asked about crime at all they would get an even better picture of defensive gun uses....perhaps they should ask about unicorn sightings and see if anyone mentions guns...then they can use that to get an accurate picture of defensive gun uses......

Nothing nuts about it. 90,000 households vs 5,000. Gun surveys are PROVEN inaccurate. They have vastly varying answers, 500k-3.6 million.

Sorry brain....you have proven nothing...you say a lot but prove nothing.....just because you don't like the number they find you don't get to say it is wrong.......

 

[2aguy]

Kleck's study...the most accurate methods for researching self defense with guns...

Armed Resistance to Crime The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun

Oh yeah he says 2.5 million defenses each year. So that means the last 30 years there have been 75 million defenses. That's like on for every single gun owner. Yet it's very hard to find anyone who has had a defense even on this board. That number is obviously wrong. Oh and I have 15 other gun studies that disagree and say it is wrong.

And for car injuries in 2013 there were 2.31 million people injured in car accidents...over 30 years that is 69.3 million people injured in car accidents...I know one person injured in a car accident...does that mean the other 69 million injuries did not happen.....?

 

[2aguy]

Again, the actual research into defensive gun uses....without feelings of what the right number is....


I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[Brain357]

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

Not going to disagree about not being involved in criminal activity, but sometimes criminal activity shows up unsolicited.

Anti-second amendment folks like the small numbers, pro-second like the huge numbers...I choose a reasonable number far below the average.

And that a paltry 2% of defensive firearm uses saved a life is extremely conservative.

2% might be conservative, but 2% of what number? I say 108k by the NCVS is the most accurate. That means about 2100. Now based on the 800k that would be 16,000. Well it can't be 16k because we know there are only 8,500 homicides and gun owners are a minority of the population. Gun owners would have to be a magnet for homicide if they were defending twice as many as are occurring. A gun owner would be twice as likely to have somebody attempt to kill them. I see no reason why that would be the case. And gun defenders are often themselves killed. So the number has to be under 8,500 which is one reason I believe the 108k is a far more accurate number for DGUs.

 

[Brain357]

Kleck's study...the most accurate methods for researching self defense with guns...

Armed Resistance to Crime The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun

Oh yeah he says 2.5 million defenses each year. So that means the last 30 years there have been 75 million defenses. That's like on for every single gun owner. Yet it's very hard to find anyone who has had a defense even on this board. That number is obviously wrong. Oh and I have 15 other gun studies that disagree and say it is wrong.

And for car injuries in 2013 there were 2.31 million people injured in car accidents...over 30 years that is 69.3 million people injured in car accidents...I know one person injured in a car accident...does that mean the other 69 million injuries did not happen.....?

You mentioned only family before. I bet you know a lot more people who have been injured in a car accident. I certainly know way more. Don't know anyone who has had a DGU though.

 

[2aguy]

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

Not going to disagree about not being involved in criminal activity, but sometimes criminal activity shows up unsolicited.

Anti-second amendment folks like the small numbers, pro-second like the huge numbers...I choose a reasonable number far below the average.

And that a paltry 2% of defensive firearm uses saved a life is extremely conservative.

2% might be conservative, but 2% of what number? I say 108k by the NCVS is the most accurate. That means about 2100. Now based on the 800k that would be 16,000. Well it can't be 16k because we know there are only 8,500 homicides and gun owners are a minority of the population. Gun owners would have to be a magnet for homicide if they were defending twice as many as are occurring. A gun owner would be twice as likely to have somebody attempt to kill them. I see no reason why that would be the case. And gun defenders are often themselves killed. So the number has to be under 8,500 which is one reason I believe the 108k is a far more accurate number for DGUs.

Please explain how a non gun study is more accurate than an actual gun study that actually asks about using a gun for self defense...

The NCVS is not a gun study and never directly asks about guns...at all...in the entire study......

 

[Missourian]

Missouran...how did you post that....I have no clue on how to do that.....thanks.

Usually I'll screen capture what I want, open it up in MS Paint and crop what I want to use. I save that to my computer.

Then, at the bottom of the reply window there is a radio button next to "post reply" called "upload a file". Click that, select the image and click open. Look below the "upload a file" radio button and you will see the image loading, then it will prompt "thumbnail" or "full image".

Put the cursor in the reply window where you want the image in your reply, then click the "full image" button.

If you want to hotlink, use a photobucket link etc. follow these directions.

How to post an image... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[2aguy]

Missouran...how did you post that....I have no clue on how to do that.....thanks.

Usually I'll screen capture what I want, open it up in MS Paint and crop what I want to use. I save that to my computer.

Then, at the bottom of the reply window there is a radio button next to "post reply" called "upload a file". Click that, select the image and click open. Look below the "upload a file" radio button and you will see the image loading, then it will prompt "thumbnail" or "full image".

Put the cursor in the reply window where you want the image in your reply, then click the "full image" button.

If you want to hotlink, use a photobucket link etc. follow these directions.

How to post an image... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Thanks....I'll try it.....