Catholics and Fundamentalists: How do we get to heaven?

[Said1]

Catholics and Fundamentalists
How do we get to heaven?
by Peter Kreeft

Surely there's no more important question in this life than: "What must I do to be saved" (Acts 16:30).

Fundamentalists think Catholics don't know how to be saved. Most fundamentalists, in fact, think Catholics will go to hell. That's why they thunder against the Catholic Church as "the whore of Babylon" ( Rev. 17).

Fundamentalists point to Paul, who told his Philippian jailer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" (Acts 16: 31). In other words, "faith alone" is the Bible's answer.

But the Catholic Church's answer is that you need faith and hope and love. And love means here the works of love. For Christian love is not a sentiment. That love means good works is abundantly clear from many parables, such as the Good Samaritan, the fig tree, the Last Judgment and the man who built his house upon a rock (Luke 10:25- 37, 13:6-9; Matt. 25:31-46, 7:24-27).

Let's look at that answer for a minute. Salvation includes both faith and works, just as a plant includes both root and fruit. We are indeed "justified by faith" (Rom. 5:11), planted in God by faith as a tree is planted in the earth by its roots. But this faith always produces its fruit, good works. If not, it is a fake or dead faith. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2 -26) and cannot save a man (James 2:14).

We are saved not by our faith, but by God's grace; our faith is our choice to receive the gift. Salvation is the very life of God in our soul. That supernatural life is received and begun by faith, it aspires upward and grows by hope, and it bears its natural fruit by love. Faith is the root of the plant of salvation; hope is the stem; the works of love are its fruits.

The most perfect and important part of the plant is the fruit. The whole plant is there for the sake of the fruit. The root is not the end but the means. The fruit is the end. Thus Jesus cursed the fruitless fig tree (Matt. 21:19). "By their fruits you shall know them," He said (Matt. 7:20). No one (except God) can see our faith, just as no one can see a plant's roots. But they can see our works.

The supposed opposition between faith and works is absurd, for they are two aspects of the same thing. The same reality, God's own life, comes in by faith and out by works. They are inhaling and exhaling of the same breath, the same Spirit. And you can't live without both inhaling and exhaling.

Fundamentalists only have to read their Bible to see this, and Catholics only have to listen to their Church to see the same thing. If fundamentalists and Catholics would only listen to their own authorities (which never contradict each other), they would solve the most important of issues of all that separate them.

Closing the chasm between fundamentalism and Catholicism has not proceeded far because of much mutual prejudice. Yet the objective theological issues are not so impossible to resolve as most people think.

For there are two crucial verbal misunderstandings at the root of the dispute about salvation by faith alone or by faith plus works. And this issue is the most important issue for fundamentalists. You hardly ever hear a fundamentalist sermon that doesn't somehow bring it in, though the congregation has heard it a thousand times before. It's so familiar that it's hard to look at fairly and freshly, like your own face. But that's exactly what we must try to do right now.

One of the two verbal misunderstandings concerns the word "salvation." Fundamentalists identify "salvation" with "justification." When they say we're "justified by faith alone" or "saved by faith alone" they mean that faith in Christ as Savior (i.e., the choice to accept Christ as Person not just Christ's "philosophy") - is enough to get you to Heaven. This is true: Paul says so in both Romans and Galatians.

But what fundamentalists don't see is that "salvation" involves more than just getting to heaven. It also involves living "the kingdom of heaven" on earth. It includes both "justification" (being made right with God, the debt of sin removed!) and "sanctification" (being made saintly, the will gradually acquiring habits of love toward God and neighbor!). The latter half of "salvation" clearly is a matter of good works, because habits are made by actions. We become the persons God destines us to become - lovers-only by the works of loving.

Continued

 

[Nuc]

If Christians can't even agree among themselves, why should the rest of us have to pay attention to their confusion? It's like watching a football game between amputees and blind people.

 

[Said1]

If Christians can't even agree among themselves, why should the rest of us have to pay attention to their confusion?

I just ignore them. :cof:

I ticked the reincarnation box anyway, doesn't affect me one way or another.

 

[8236]

What's a 'fundamentalist' as opposed to 'catholic'?

 

[Said1]

What's a 'fundamentalist' as opposed to 'catholic'?

I'm thinking Evangelical.

 

[8236]

I'm thinking Evangelical.

you mean like those fire and brimstone southern baptist types you have over there (USA)?

 

[Said1]

you mean like those fire and brimstone southern baptist types you have over there (USA)?

No, I mean Evangelical, not sure where they are based exactly.

And I'm Canadian, we're anti-Christian, amoral, sexual deviants up here. :halo:

 

[Markainion]

If Christians can't even agree among themselves, why should the rest of us have to pay attention to their confusion? It's like watching a football game between amputees and blind people.

So do scientist, politicians, medical doctors, ext if you expect the world to agree on something, you’re not going to find much. The fun is coming up with your own personal beliefs why your beliefs are right.

 

[8236]

No, I mean Evangelical, not sure where they are based exactly.

And I'm Canadian, we're anti-Christian, amoral, sexual deviants up here. :halo:

Excellent. Canadians It's so easy to forget there are others other than Americans ovr there.
(doh, I didnt look at ur location: field)

 

[Said1]

Excellent. Canadians It's so easy to forget there are others other than Americans ovr there.

Tis true. We've been marginalized right off the freekin page.

 

[8236]

Said1: was it you that improved my reputation? I was off the scale. Put me back

 

[Said1]

Said1: was it you that improved my reputation? I was off the scale. Put me back

I might have, although I don't recall. Hit the user cp link, let me know.

 

[Nuc]

How many Christians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None. Lightbulbs are not mentioned in the bible.

 

[Said1]

How many Christians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None. Lightbulbs are not mentioned in the bible.

Not again. It's the Amish who are forbidden to take advantage of technology. Dude.

 

[Hobbit]

Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are NOT the same thing, it's just that many liberals use the terms interchangably to discredit the Evangelical movment. Fundamentalists (in any religion) are those who take their beliefs to ludicrous extremes. The Christian faith states that those who believe in Christ will be saved. If somebody believes in Christ, but thinks other things are also necessary, then the extent of the disagreement should simply be that they're wasting their time on this other stuff. Fundamentalists believe the these people will go to Hell. Pentecostal denominations believe that opening yourself to the movements of the Holy Spirit is a good method of spiritual expression. Pentecostal fundamentalists believe that those not open to these movements are going to Hell. Baptists and many other denominations believe that baptism in water is a great outgrowth of spiritual expression. Fundamentalists often believe that those not baptized in water will go to Hell.

Christian fundamentalists, as with fundamentalists in any religion, carry a few scriptural passages out to a ludicrous extreme. No matter what religion they're in, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, etc., they're dangerous, especially to the reputation of that religion, just as the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists are dangerous to other Muslims.

Evangelicals, however, are members of a newfound evangelical movment within the church. This movment concentrates on evangelism, which is the non-violent conversion of as many people as possible to Christianity. It is usually characterized by missionaries and traveling preachers, both foreign and domestic, not doomsaying, Hell focused, idiots like those guys that say gays caused 9-11 and that all Jews and Catholics are going to hell.

For a quick comparison, check out these two examples.

Evangelical (and my denomination): www.ag.org
Fundamentalist: www.chick.com

 

[kurtsprincess]

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell as described in religious doctrines. :huh:

I find it sad to think that people act in such a way that they feel the need to be saved, or act in a certain way, or follow specific rules/guidelines, in order to go to a place called Heaven, or that some will go to a place called Hell if they don't measure up and toe the line as dictated.

I think it would benefit mankind if we didn't always think we need to get "rewarded" for acting in good faith and treating others with dignity and respect. Why not do it without any expectations.

I find this type of mentality running rampant in our younger generation today. "Reward me or I will not do what is right. I will act out for as long as I want and then ask for forgiveness and I'll get what I want in the end anyway." Pretty soon they will be holding the Creator accountable for their bad behavior and say the rules were too strict to comply with and took away their basic freedoms.

I know this is simplifying this issue down to the nub, without all the nuances of individual beliefs and I'm sorry if anyone is offended.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Pretty soon they will be holding the Creator accountable for their bad behavior and say the rules were too strict to comply with and took away their basic freedoms.

Welcome to The New Age Moral Relativism movement.

 

[dmp]

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell as described in religious doctrines. :huh:

I find it sad to think that people act in such a way that they feel the need to be saved, or act in a certain way, or follow specific rules/guidelines, in order to go to a place called Heaven, or that some will go to a place called Hell if they don't measure up and toe the line as dictated.

I think it would benefit mankind if we didn't always think we need to get "rewarded" for acting in good faith and treating others with dignity and respect. Why not do it without any expectations.

I find this type of mentality running rampant in our younger generation today. "Reward me or I will not do what is right. I will act out for as long as I want and then ask for forgiveness and I'll get what I want in the end anyway." Pretty soon they will be holding the Creator accountable for their bad behavior and say the rules were too strict to comply with and took away their basic freedoms.

I know this is simplifying this issue down to the nub, without all the nuances of individual beliefs and I'm sorry if anyone is offended.

That's just it - Christianity is NOT about 'follow the rules or you go to hell' it's about simply receiving a gift...free and clear.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Beware ecumenicism!

[Cardinal Biffi] also identified the Antichrist as an expert on the Bible who nonetheless promotes "vague and fashionable spiritual values" rather than the Scriptures. He advocates ecumenical dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and other Christian denominations, including Anglicanism and the Orthodox Church. This appeared to be a worthy aim, but was in fact being used by the Antichrist in an attempt to water down and undermine Catholicism to the point where it collapsed.

http://www.cardinalrating.com/cardinal_13__article_259.htm

 

[archangel]

Opp's never mind...being Catholic and all...wrong thread...don't want to bash or be bashed...carry on secuarlist!