Capitalism vs. Slavery...lefty dyslexia...a classic example...

[bripat9643]

The problem is that democrats/lefties/progressives write the history books today...that is one reason Standard Oil is a big target...here is a look at the other side of the myth...

Vindicating Capitalism The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part I The Fallacious Textbook Story 8212 MasterResource

An Overdue Reconsideration

But Rockefeller was no autocrat. The standard lesson of Rockefeller’s rise is wrong—as is the traditional story of how it happened. Rockefeller did not achieve his success through the destructive, “anticompetitive” tactics attributed to him—nor could he have under economic freedom.

Rockefeller had no coercive power to banish competition or to dictate consumer prices. His sole power was his earned economicpower—which was no more and no less than his ability to refine crude oil to produce kerosene and other products better, cheaper, and in greater quantity than anyone thought possible.

It has been more than one hundred years since Ida Tarbell published her History of the Standard Oil Company. It is time for Americans to know the real history of that company and to learn its attendant and valuable lessons about capitalism.

- See more at: Vindicating Capitalism The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part I The Fallacious Textbook Story 8212 MasterResource

Good reference.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[bripat9643]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

 

[georgephillip]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

The cave man would never have killed a thing without his spears. Workers can pretty much produce zero without capital. That's close to what their labor is worth without capital.

Workers preceded capital.
Capital is a tool of labor.
Humanity trumps private wealth.

 

[georgephillip]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

Except I've never expressed a theory that holds those providing the tools are entitled to nothing. You are the one who thinks capital deserves higher consideration than labor. Why do you hate democracy?

 

[bripat9643]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

Except I've never expressed a theory that holds those providing the tools are entitled to nothing. You are the one who thinks capital deserves higher consideration than labor. Why do you hate democracy?

Sure you have. Your quote implies that labor deserves all the compensations and capital deserves none.

I hate democracy for the same reason I hate a gang of criminals. There is no moral distinction between them.

 

[konradv]

The problem is that democrats/lefties/progressives write the history books today...that is one reason Standard Oil is a big target...here is a look at the other side of the myth...

Vindicating Capitalism The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part I The Fallacious Textbook Story 8212 MasterResource

An Overdue Reconsideration

But Rockefeller was no autocrat. The standard lesson of Rockefeller’s rise is wrong—as is the traditional story of how it happened. Rockefeller did not achieve his success through the destructive, “anticompetitive” tactics attributed to him—nor could he have under economic freedom.

Rockefeller had no coercive power to banish competition or to dictate consumer prices. His sole power was his earned economicpower—which was no more and no less than his ability to refine crude oil to produce kerosene and other products better, cheaper, and in greater quantity than anyone thought possible.

It has been more than one hundred years since Ida Tarbell published her History of the Standard Oil Company. It is time for Americans to know the real history of that company and to learn its attendant and valuable lessons about capitalism.

- See more at: Vindicating Capitalism The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part I The Fallacious Textbook Story 8212 MasterResource

Good reference.

Welcome to the forum!

If Rockefeller wasn't restraining fair trade, why did the SO pieces become worth much more than the whole in a matter of years?

 

[2aguy]

There are 5 parts to the article on .rockefeller and What he did....you should read the whole thing...

 

[2aguy]

Here is part 2...it discusses how he got into the oil business...you know, the first five years that it was actually new and everyone was trying to make money...

The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part II The Phenom 8212 MasterResource

And he did—immediately. Instead of setting up a shanty refinery, Rockefeller invested enough to create the largest refinery in Cleveland: Excelsior Works. From the beginning, he encouraged Andrews to expand and improve the refinery, which soon produced 505 barrels a day,25 as compared to some refineries in the Oil Regions that produced as few as five barrels a day.26

Additionally, in a highly profitable act of foresight, Rockefeller carefully bought the land for his refinery in a place from which it would be easy to ship by railroad and by water, thus putting shippers in competition for his business; his competitors simply placed their refineries near the new Cleveland rail line and took for granted that it would be their means of transportation.27

See...that's the thing...he did things better than everyone else and not only made money for himself...he made fuel oil cheap for everyone...which meant he actually helped the poor...he gave them lights at night...

While other refiners took any given business cost for granted—including the cost of barrels and the cost of crude—Rockefeller put himself and those who worked for him to the task of discovering ways to lower every cost while continuously seeking additional sources of revenue.

Consider the cost of transporting oil in barrels. Barrels were a major expense for everyone in the industry, and barrel makers were notoriously unreliable when it came to delivering barrels on time. Rockefeller at once slashed his costs and solved this reliability problem by having his firm manufacture its own barrels. He purchased forest land, had laborers cut wood, and—in a crucial innovation—had the wood dried in a kiln before using it to transport kerosene. (Others used green wood barrels, which were far heavier and thus more expensive to transport.)

With these and other innovations, Rockefeller’s barrel costs dropped from $2.50 a barrel to less than $1 a barrel—and he always had barrels when he needed them.30

The socialists hate him because he actually created something useful that everyone used and enjoyed....jealousy is a terrible thing...

 

[georgephillip]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

Except I've never expressed a theory that holds those providing the tools are entitled to nothing. You are the one who thinks capital deserves higher consideration than labor. Why do you hate democracy?

Sure you have. Your quote implies that labor deserves all the compensations and capital deserves none.

I hate democracy for the same reason I hate a gang of criminals. There is no moral distinction between them.

"Fundamentally, constitutional limits on power, a key feature of democracy, requires adherence to the rule of
law.

Democracy Web Rule of Law Essential Principles

 

[Moonglow]

capitalism is exactly this, the free exchange of goods and services...you may say morality doesn't come into play...but that is where the "freedom" part comes in...as long as all parties involved are free to choose to engage in the exchange..no one steals or cheats...a moral transaction takes place...and on top of that, it becomes the most efficient economic system ever discovered...as pointed out...the free man works harder than the slave...he is harder working, more inventive and in the end more moral than the slave owner...that is why socialism will always fail...eventually...they must steal from one citizen to give to another...this breeds inefficiency...creates waste and destruction and eventually the system will collapse...in smaller countries, with smaller homogeneous populations that do not have to provide for their own defense...it will take longer to happen...but happen it will...

crony capitalism...a bogeyman of socialists...is really just the precursor to outright socialism...it is more properly called crony socialism...as the government gives privileges to one business over others...there by interfering with the free exchange of goods and services....

Even without slavery there have great crimes committed involving capitalism.

Really? Such as? The expression "involving capitalism" implies that if a man beats his wife in a capitalist country, then capitalism is to blame. That's the exact you use to justify capitalism for being responsible for slavery

You're just using this as a ploy to throw in messages against socialism. Sorry, but you fail. There is capitalism with and without "moral transactions" and there's capitalism with or without slavery. It's not necessary for a slave to work harder or be more inventive than the non-slave. The slave isn't the principle of the story, he's property.

Sorry, no there isn't. For instance, according to your theory, capitalism would be perfectly consistent with allowing someone to hire a killer to knock off his wife. That would be what you call an "Immoral capitalist transaction." However, capitalism isn't consistent with the violation of people's rights. Capitalism is economic system where all transactions are voluntary. All other social systems condone the use of force in human transactions, including socialism. Capitalism is based on banning the use of force in human transactions. You're trying to claim capitalism is exactly the opposite of how it's defined.

You're trying to graft libertarianism onto capitalism. Capitalism is amoral. The point is the exchange of goods or services for money. Whether the transactions are good or bad, free or coerced, is irrelevant. One of the favorite eras of American history for libertarians is The Gilded Age, before the advent of progressivism and very little regulation. If you think there wasn't a lot of coercion going on, I've got a bridge to sell you.

As I laready explained, capitalism is based on banning coercion from human transactions. If you don't think the use of coercion is a moral issue, then you are undoubtedly a servile toady of the welfare state.

If you think coercion was prevalent during the Gilded age, then perhaps you could document some examples. there's far, far more coercion under the current welfare state than there ever was prior to it. That includes the colonial period.

anarcho-capitalism is what you are speaking of..

 

[haissem123]

when we play a game that makes my life better when other lives get worse, it's a game to the death of us all. why can't you see this?

 

[bripat9643]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

Except I've never expressed a theory that holds those providing the tools are entitled to nothing. You are the one who thinks capital deserves higher consideration than labor. Why do you hate democracy?

Sure you have. Your quote implies that labor deserves all the compensations and capital deserves none.

I hate democracy for the same reason I hate a gang of criminals. There is no moral distinction between them.

"Fundamentally, constitutional limits on power, a key feature of democracy, requires adherence to the rule of
law.

Democracy Web Rule of Law Essential Principles

Democracy is rule by the mob.

 

[bripat9643]

The problem is that democrats/lefties/progressives write the history books today...that is one reason Standard Oil is a big target...here is a look at the other side of the myth...

Vindicating Capitalism The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part I The Fallacious Textbook Story 8212 MasterResource

An Overdue Reconsideration

But Rockefeller was no autocrat. The standard lesson of Rockefeller’s rise is wrong—as is the traditional story of how it happened. Rockefeller did not achieve his success through the destructive, “anticompetitive” tactics attributed to him—nor could he have under economic freedom.

Rockefeller had no coercive power to banish competition or to dictate consumer prices. His sole power was his earned economicpower—which was no more and no less than his ability to refine crude oil to produce kerosene and other products better, cheaper, and in greater quantity than anyone thought possible.

It has been more than one hundred years since Ida Tarbell published her History of the Standard Oil Company. It is time for Americans to know the real history of that company and to learn its attendant and valuable lessons about capitalism.

- See more at: Vindicating Capitalism The Real History of the Standard Oil Company Part I The Fallacious Textbook Story 8212 MasterResource

Good reference.

Welcome to the forum!

If Rockefeller wasn't restraining fair trade, why did the SO pieces become worth much more than the whole in a matter of years?

If SO was enjoying monopoly profits, then the whole would be worth more than the sum of the parts since the parts would have to compete with each other and drive down profits. The facts disprove your theory.

 

[georgephillip]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

Except I've never expressed a theory that holds those providing the tools are entitled to nothing. You are the one who thinks capital deserves higher consideration than labor. Why do you hate democracy?

Sure you have. Your quote implies that labor deserves all the compensations and capital deserves none.

I hate democracy for the same reason I hate a gang of criminals. There is no moral distinction between them.

"Fundamentally, constitutional limits on power, a key feature of democracy, requires adherence to the rule of
law.

Democracy Web Rule of Law Essential Principles

Democracy is rule by the mob.

"In democracies, the use of arbitrary power is considered anathema to the rule of law.

"Fundamentally, constitutional limits on power, a key feature of democracy, requires adherence to the rule of law. Indeed, the rule of law could be defined as the subjugation of state power to a country's constitution and laws, established or adopted through popular consent.

"This is the meaning of the commonly cited phrase 'a government of laws, not men,' made famous by John Adams, the second president of the United States. Under such a system, law should be supreme to the capricious authority of any individual.

"The rule of law is the supreme check on political power used against people's rights.

"Without the regulation of state power by a system of laws, procedures, and courts, democracy could not survive."

Democracy Web Rule of Law Essential Principles

Your choice appears to be rule by corporation.

 

[bripat9643]

So now we're civilized?
Now we diminish the natural superiority of labor over capital by bribing governments to reduce the bargaining power of workers under the guise of protecting the rights of individual workers?

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and... - Abraham Lincoln at BrainyQuote

Every commie in this forum just loves that Abe Lincoln quote. The claim that labor is independent of capital is obviously false. The first cave man to make a spear point understood that.

What's the matter, Rockefeller, can't wrap your mind around the obvious truism your cave man's spear would never have existed absent his labor?

Once you get above the level of stone age technology, few workers can make their own tools. Few can even afford to buy them. Your theory that the person who provides the tools is entitled to nothing is the morality of a thug.

Except I've never expressed a theory that holds those providing the tools are entitled to nothing. You are the one who thinks capital deserves higher consideration than labor. Why do you hate democracy?

Sure you have. Your quote implies that labor deserves all the compensations and capital deserves none.

I hate democracy for the same reason I hate a gang of criminals. There is no moral distinction between them.

"Fundamentally, constitutional limits on power, a key feature of democracy, requires adherence to the rule of
law.

Democracy Web Rule of Law Essential Principles

Democracy is rule by the mob.

"In democracies, the use of arbitrary power is considered anathema to the rule of law.

"Fundamentally, constitutional limits on power, a key feature of democracy, requires adherence to the rule of law. Indeed, the rule of law could be defined as the subjugation of state power to a country's constitution and laws, established or adopted through popular consent.

"This is the meaning of the commonly cited phrase 'a government of laws, not men,' made famous by John Adams, the second president of the United States. Under such a system, law should be supreme to the capricious authority of any individual.

"The rule of law is the supreme check on political power used against people's rights.

"Without the regulation of state power by a system of laws, procedures, and courts, democracy could not survive."

Democracy Web Rule of Law Essential Principles

Your choice appears to be rule by corporation.

All your quotes are complete bullshit. Democracy and the rule of law are mutually exclusive. Democracy is rule by men. The mob pisses on the rule of men. All we have to do is look at the record of the mob master Obama to know that. The mob elevated him to his current lofty status, and the mob cheers whenever he ignores the clear mandates of the Constitution, the so-called "rule of law."

You constantly defend the Supreme Court when it ignores the clear wording of the Constitution. You even defended that scurrilous decision where Lincoln's handpicked Lackey's ruled that he had the authority to invade the sovereign states of the Union even thought the Constitution says such an act constitutes treason.

I don't want to be ruled by anyone, least of all you and your ilk.