Cap and trade Questions

[sealybobo]

You know sealy there are two reps. in that video from MI. one a democrat and one a republican. By not watching it you do yourself a diservice. I was under the impression you wanted jobs there in MI. and the economy to come out of the tank? You do know the CBO in that very same report says that your bills on everything will go up don't you? The one congressman from Mi. in that video states that 1 out of 3 Mi. residents are at least 1 month behind paying utility bills due to struggling to pay bills. What do you suppose a rate hike will do to that? Do you think it will help or hurt? How many companies do you think that are teetering on the edge need that extra push to go under because of a rise in transportation costs, utilities, goods, ? Do you think that will help Mi.? The CBO report spells all that out quite clearly this bill is a tax bill to generate revenue for the Federal Govt. I will put another video up for you that you might like even better as it has Obama in it....

YouTube - Barack Obama Admits: Energy Prices Will Skyrocket Under Cap And Trade

Only one solution then. Raise taxes on the rich. Costs might go up for us a little, but they can only put the burden on us so much. At that point, the rich need to chip in a little more.

If the status quo is unacceptable. Is it? Can we just continue doing what we are doing now indefinately? These are things I need to know.

And will this eventually save us money? Like putting solar panels on your home is expensive, but will save you money in the long run.

So no, don't raise rates too much on the average Michigander. A little won't kill anyone. But beyond that, we need some help from the rich.

And maybe their going to cut taxes elsewhere. If they give me a $85 tax break on my paycheck and heating prices go up $85, it's a wash.

But to jack up seniors heat bills without a safety net? No.

Maybe they won't let any seniors suffer. Maybe that's in the bill. I don't have all the answers.

I'm sure you will point out the negatives and then we can either agree or disagree/debunk.

 

[sealybobo]

Theres a lot of problems with Tariff's on some nations at the moment sealy the biggest being that this nation is basically in debt to a lot of nations and by starting a trade war by putting Tariffs on goods that are imported from countries that also hold our debt then we risk as a nation our money basically becomming worthless as those nations that hold our debt dump it on the market. What needs to happen to put us in the position to level the "trade" playing field and you will be surprised here with me that I support that, we need too pay that debt down first. If you keep adding too it by borrowing more money then you are in no position to demand from nations you borrow from to impose Tariffs. How do you pay down that debt? Well thats not easy, but you know Clinton paid it down and did so by a combination of cutting taxes and moving people from welfare to work. Granted Clinton did raise taxes on some things however, the focus was paying down the debt! As for CEO's I've said this to you many times most of the companies that you condemn are public companies where the salaries are approved by a board that is elected by the shareholders. So in order to change that, shareholders need to hold their board members more accountable for the salaries of their executives and base it on their performance. Companies though sealy and I've said it many times, exist not for the sake of providing people jobs, they exist to provide a product or service, in order to make a profit, with the exception of those non-profit companies and even those companies exist to produce a service or product. The employee's are the foundation in which these companies are able to produce those products. So if the company cannot be allowd to compete due to high taxes, excessive regulation, then those employee's that work for the company cannot expect the company to keep providing wages and benefits at levels in an environment that is not competetive. Again, if you wish to make these companies successful then you know I implore you to get on your congressman to provide incentives for those companies to come to MI. and hire people. I'm not anti-union sealy, I think that every employee should have the right to be a part of a union if they so desire as I think an employee should have the right to not be a part of one if they desire too.

As for my position on environmental policies, sealy, I can literally fill this thread up with data of environmental regs. that have caused a lot of Americans to lose their jobs. I think that it's important to take care of the environment but you know I am a person that think we can do that and at the same time provide a friendly place for business that leads to those much needed jobs that we all need.

We used to be the largest creditor nation. How did we go from that to being in debt?

WASHINGTON -- A U.S. trade panel said on Thursday China was unfairly flooding the U.S. market with tires, the first step in a test case of how the Obama administration will handle trade disputes with Beijing.

Chinese imports hurting tire market: U.S. trade panel - The China Post

 

[sealybobo]

Building codes are already the primary reason for the housing industries collapse. the codes essentailly forced builders to build homes that most people simply couldn't afford without some jerry rigged financing system.

The were showing a green mobile home on TV the other day. It appeared to be about 2/3 the size of my 16 X 80 and cost nearly twice what I paid for said 16 X 80.

The hell with the heating bills most of us aren't going to be able to afford rent.

garyd thats actually a really good point as it applies to this bill, the requirements in it for building codes and the prices of homes. Has anyone noticed that a home in California is not cheap? Granted real estate in California is high but building codes have someting to do with that. Imagine people across the nation selling their homes and the Environmental inspectors requiring them to make it green before the sale and how much that will impact the market and prices. Your exactly right, a good example of this "green technology" is in any grocery store. Look at the price differences in anything that is labeled "green" Then attach that to everything!! Then ask yourself if the economy as it is today can support that at the moment.

Oh come on now you fear mogerer. Did you say the same thing to everyone before Bush got into office? Look at the price of EVERYTHING. Yea, its all going to go up because of Bush's policies. Gas, heat, food, EVERYTHING. Did you worry about people dying because they couldn't pay their heat bills? It happened. But now you are worried that Cap & Trade will do what Bush and Cheney actually did??? Did you complain back then about poor people when gas was $4 a gallon and home heating bills were thru the roof? The status quo won't do, but thats what you, the gop and energy giants faught for while simultaniously gouging the American consumer. Sorry navy, we can't wait for the oil guys to decide they went $5 a gallon. We're going to come up with a solution while WE have the majority. And I understand your concerns. Duly noted. Now we are in charge, so you can sit back and tell us why we can't, but we are going to show you that YES WE CAN.

I don't even know all the facts. All I know is the right is intellectually dishonest and distracting. The Dems are in charge now. If what you say is true, they won't win in 2012. But when nothing you say comes to be, then what? And don't forget, you said it was ok for the oil boys to charge us whatever they wanted to charge.

So don't cry when the Dems jack up the rates, especially when its for a long term solution. Your boys jacked up the rates and we are no better off now than we were 8 years ago.

Aren't they giving tax credits to people who get rid of their old appliances and go green? My heater/ac unit is old as hell. I should look into it and maybe replace it while they are still offering tax credits.

 

[WillowTree]

Building codes are already the primary reason for the housing industries collapse. the codes essentailly forced builders to build homes that most people simply couldn't afford without some jerry rigged financing system.

The were showing a green mobile home on TV the other day. It appeared to be about 2/3 the size of my 16 X 80 and cost nearly twice what I paid for said 16 X 80.

The hell with the heating bills most of us aren't going to be able to afford rent.

garyd thats actually a really good point as it applies to this bill, the requirements in it for building codes and the prices of homes. Has anyone noticed that a home in California is not cheap? Granted real estate in California is high but building codes have someting to do with that. Imagine people across the nation selling their homes and the Environmental inspectors requiring them to make it green before the sale and how much that will impact the market and prices. Your exactly right, a good example of this "green technology" is in any grocery store. Look at the price differences in anything that is labeled "green" Then attach that to everything!! Then ask yourself if the economy as it is today can support that at the moment.

Oh come on now you fear mogerer. Did you say the same thing to everyone before Bush got into office? Look at the price of EVERYTHING. Yea, its all going to go up because of Bush's policies. Gas, heat, food, EVERYTHING. Did you worry about people dying because they couldn't pay their heat bills? It happened. But now you are worried that Cap & Trade will do what Bush and Cheney actually did??? Did you complain back then about poor people when gas was $4 a gallon and home heating bills were thru the roof? The status quo won't do, but thats what you, the gop and energy giants faught for while simultaniously gouging the American consumer. Sorry navy, we can't wait for the oil guys to decide they went $5 a gallon. We're going to come up with a solution while WE have the majority. And I understand your concerns. Duly noted. Now we are in charge, so you can sit back and tell us why we can't, but we are going to show you that YES WE CAN.

I don't even know all the facts. All I know is the right is intellectually dishonest and distracting. The Dems are in charge now. If what you say is true, they won't win in 2012. But when nothing you say comes to be, then what? And don't forget, you said it was ok for the oil boys to charge us whatever they wanted to charge.

So don't cry when the Dems jack up the rates, especially when its for a long term solution. Your boys jacked up the rates and we are no better off now than we were 8 years ago.

Aren't they giving tax credits to people who get rid of their old appliances and go green? My heater/ac unit is old as hell. I should look into it and maybe replace it while they are still offering tax credits.

They sure as hell are. and unemployment hit 9.5% this morning.. and obamalama lied and the economy died!

 

[driveby]

The more I learn the more I like.

Since it's physically impossible for you to have actually read any significant amount of the bill, you have actually learned nothing.

I suppose, you'll still be blaming Booooosh when this bill, should it become law, greatly exasperates the job loss problem, as more and more manufacturers flee this tyranny and take their jobs overseas in response.

1. It won't cost jobs. Let them try to flee. That'll be great for their competition. And we'll tax them on the way out. And then they can sell their shit to Mexico, India, China or god forbid socialist Europe.

2. It'll create jobs

3. It won't cost individuals as much as you say

4. It was necessary

5. We found a way to pay for the Iraq war, we can find a way to get this done

6. And who owns the energy companies anyways? Aren't they public owned? Or are they owned like the Federal Reserve/Oil Companies/Media?


7. I see a lot of new green start up companies. That's good.

Where are your facts faggot ?

I'll give you two:

1) OBAMA ADMITTED electricity costs will SKYROCKET under cap and trade.

2) Since your clown ass loves to bring up Iraq so much, now Obama is taking CREDIT for the SUCCESS in Iraq when he was one of the main needledicks OPPOSED to the surge. Gotta love you asshole dems .......

 

[Navy1960]

"Sawmill layoffs topple a way of life" (Page A1, May 3): Sierra Pacific Industries' closing of several of its Northern California sawmills is but the latest event in the 20-year conflict pitting the atrophying timber industry against environmentalist organizations intent on shutting down all Northwest timber harvesting – purportedly to protect spotted owl habitat.

They persuaded President Bill Clinton to close 25 million acres of federal forest land to timber harvesting, effectively shutting down 50 percent of timber mills, resulting in the loss of 30,000 logging jobs and the cutting-off of federal timber revenues to forest counties.

California Farm Water Coalition - Environmental efforts cost timber industry 30,000 jobs

PCS Phosphate announced Friday that it planned to eliminate 12 contractor jobs and reassign 12 other workers involved in mining and blamed delays in getting a federal permit to expand its mining operation in Beaufort County. Environmental advocates said the company has itself to blame.

The company said it plans to idle one of two excavation teams that strip off the top 100-foot layer of soil and rock to prepare the site for mining of phosphate ore. Actual mining will continue.

"Our mining operations are quickly approaching the end of our existing permit boundary," said Steve Beckel, general manager of the PCS Phosphate's Aurora facility. "We began the permitting process more than eight years ago in hopes of avoiding this situation."
Mine ties layoffs to permit problems - Local & State - News & Observer

“At a time when Connecticut is struggling with record high unemployment, the last thing our government should be doing is imposing tariffs that will cause higher prices and more layoffs,” said Dodd. “I am disappointed that Ambassador Allgeier ignored our request to rethink this short-sighted decision, and hope that President Obama’s USTR team will act quickly to review this matter.”
Dodd, Lieberman, Larson, Courtney, Himes Condemn New Tariff | U.S. Senator Christopher J. Dodd

Michigan regulators have approved adding new fees to monthly bills for customers of 40 municipal utilities in the state.

The surcharges will help the utilities meet energy-efficiency requirements under a 2008 state law.

The "energy optimization" fees range from a low of 13 cents a month in Marshall to a high of $1.26 per month in Coldwater.

Some city-owned utilities also are allowed to charge up to $3 a month to buy more wind power and other forms of alternative energy. But many of the municipal utilities will not have the $3 surcharge.

Michigan regulators OK city utility bill surcharges

Zeeland, Mich. (WZZM) - Amidst recent headlines of two Fruitport Township children passing away after a fire caused by a kerosene heater, organizations are stepping up to make sure every family can at least pay their winter utility bills.

In West Michigan the number of families looking for help with their utility bills has almost tripled.
There is help available from agencies like the Community Action Agency (CAA) and the United Way, as long as there's enough money to go around.

Saturday morning more than 150 walkers gathered in City on a Hill Ministries in Zeeland to walk to raise money for the CAA.

"It never ceases to amaze the amount of people that will get up early on a Saturday morning to come out and help a worthwhile organization," said State Senator Wayne Kuipers before the crowd hit the pavement.

Walk for Warmth raises $6000 to help pay utility bills | wzzm13.com | Grand Rapids, MI

The days when our government could be all things to all people are behind us. This is no time for
special interests or pet projects. It’s a time that demands relentless focus and discipline.

In December, we passed ground-breaking incentives to make sure the batteries that will soon
power electric cars are made in Michigan. Thank you, Representative Gonzales, for your
leadership on this legislation. Within weeks of passage, GM announced it will assemble the
battery packs for the Volt, its new electric vehicle, right here in Michigan.

And A123 Systems, a Massachusetts company, announced it is seeking almost $2 billion in
federal loans to build up to 5 million electric car batteries a year and employ some 14,000
workers right here in Michigan.<< THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THEY NEED TO FOCUS ON!!

First, I will ask the Legislature to make Michigan the first state in the nation to let every
homeowner, every business, become a renewable energy entrepreneur who can make money by
installing solar panels or wind systems on their home or business and selling that renewable
energy back to the power company. Through this legislation, we will create a powerful new
market for large and small turbines and solar panels made by Michigan workers.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/gov/SOS2009_265915_7.pdf

The point of all that sealy was to show you that heavy handed environmental regulations cause companies to flee, and even in your own state WITHOUT a cap and trade bill your state is moving forward to install several of these technologies wind and solar. The other thing I wanted to show you is that people cannot afford in this economic climate to pay for a carbon trading scheme that is not needed, when they have other things to worry about namely survival. Just raising someone utility bill is one thing but cap and trade will raise, the cost, of gas,food, and just about everything that takes energy to produce and transfer in this nation. sealy, people simply cannot afford that many of the same people that cry out for healthcare, cannot afford to pay more for everything in their lives so that enviro-business can enrich themselves. You say tax the rich well if this bill passes you have a whole new set of rich people to steer your anger at. As for Seniors it is my humble opinion that a society has an obligation to take care of it's seniors and it's disabled and those that have gave their all to protect it. That is the mark of a civilized society and Seniors especially are the very shoulders on which we stand on and to forget them is to forget where we came from and to abandon where we are going.

When Nancy and Randy Borowicz bought their Campbell home, they had to replace the roof. The couple decided to put more than just a traditional wood-shingled roof over their heads. The Borowiczes chose to install a solar energy system at the same time. That decision reduced their PG&E bill from $300 to an average of $40 per month.
After doing research for several years, visiting home shows and talking to vendors, the Borowiczes knew they wanted to incorporate an efficient energy system into their lifestyle. The couple installed 22 solar panels on the home's roof, a solar water heater, and added seven panels on the garage roof to heat their swimming pool. The work was completed in June 2002 and cost the Borowiczes $25,000 before rebates and tax credits, which brought the cost down to $13,000.

They expect it to take about seven years to realize a full return on their investment. Now their 2,100-square-foot home on Monica Lane is about 60 percent solar powered, and the Borowiczes plan to increase their solar efficiency to 95 percent with the installation of additional solar panels

I don't think I have ever said I'm anti-solar in fact if you can afford the upfront costs and wait for the return on your investment then it will be cost effective after several years. How many people though do you know have 13 Grand laying around? It's basically a cost issue sealy, the average household will NEVER spend 10 to 13 K on solar even where I live where the sun shines almost year around because the upfront cost is too high. Now if the Obama Administration really wanted to do something , then they would have made that a 100% credit for all homeowners for 5 years and that could have been the whole bill. How many jobs you think that would have created much less brought down the cost of energy?

 

[sealybobo]

Since it's physically impossible for you to have actually read any significant amount of the bill, you have actually learned nothing.

I suppose, you'll still be blaming Booooosh when this bill, should it become law, greatly exasperates the job loss problem, as more and more manufacturers flee this tyranny and take their jobs overseas in response.

1. It won't cost jobs. Let them try to flee. That'll be great for their competition. And we'll tax them on the way out. And then they can sell their shit to Mexico, India, China or god forbid socialist Europe.

2. It'll create jobs

3. It won't cost individuals as much as you say

4. It was necessary

5. We found a way to pay for the Iraq war, we can find a way to get this done

6. And who owns the energy companies anyways? Aren't they public owned? Or are they owned like the Federal Reserve/Oil Companies/Media?


7. I see a lot of new green start up companies. That's good.

Where are your facts faggot ?

I'll give you two:

1) OBAMA ADMITTED electricity costs will SKYROCKET under cap and trade.

2) Since your clown ass loves to bring up Iraq so much, now Obama is taking CREDIT for the SUCCESS in Iraq when he was one of the main needledicks OPPOSED to the surge. Gotta love you asshole dems .......

Oh so now you believe everything Obama says? Usually you call him a liar.

See, a perfect example of a right wing fool who doesn't know any facts beyond "the surge worked".

Did they change any other tactics?

Was it the surge alone or maybe did we pay off local militia's for a truce too?

Is the truce over or will the truce last forever?

How about political reconciliation?

Which group killed 4 US soldiers the other day? Sunni, shiite, al queda, kurds, were they Iranian?

You don't know dick.

 

[driveby]

1. It won't cost jobs. Let them try to flee. That'll be great for their competition. And we'll tax them on the way out. And then they can sell their shit to Mexico, India, China or god forbid socialist Europe.

2. It'll create jobs

3. It won't cost individuals as much as you say

4. It was necessary

5. We found a way to pay for the Iraq war, we can find a way to get this done

6. And who owns the energy companies anyways? Aren't they public owned? Or are they owned like the Federal Reserve/Oil Companies/Media?


7. I see a lot of new green start up companies. That's good.

Where are your facts faggot ?

I'll give you two:

1) OBAMA ADMITTED electricity costs will SKYROCKET under cap and trade.

2) Since your clown ass loves to bring up Iraq so much, now Obama is taking CREDIT for the SUCCESS in Iraq when he was one of the main needledicks OPPOSED to the surge. Gotta love you asshole dems .......

Oh so now you believe everything Obama says? Usually you call him a liar.

See, a perfect example of a right wing fool who doesn't know any facts beyond "the surge worked".

Did they change any other tactics?

Was it the surge alone or maybe did we pay off local militia's for a truce too?

Is the truce over or will the truce last forever?

How about political reconciliation?

Which group killed 4 US soldiers the other day? Sunni, shiite, al queda, kurds, were they Iranian?

You don't know dick.

You dumb fuck, admitting electricity rates will go up is just him covering his ass, the lies are global warming, green jobs, energy independence, were going to save the earth, etc.....

Don't question me on Iraq, question your boy Obama who now wants to take credit for the work of the Bush administration. A refreshing change from Obama blaming Bush for everything huh ? ......

 

[oreo]

You know sealy there are two reps. in that video from MI. one a democrat and one a republican. By not watching it you do yourself a diservice. I was under the impression you wanted jobs there in MI. and the economy to come out of the tank? You do know the CBO in that very same report says that your bills on everything will go up don't you? The one congressman from Mi. in that video states that 1 out of 3 Mi. residents are at least 1 month behind paying utility bills due to struggling to pay bills. What do you suppose a rate hike will do to that? Do you think it will help or hurt? How many companies do you think that are teetering on the edge need that extra push to go under because of a rise in transportation costs, utilities, goods, ? Do you think that will help Mi.? The CBO report spells all that out quite clearly this bill is a tax bill to generate revenue for the Federal Govt. I will put another video up for you that you might like even better as it has Obama in it....

YouTube - Barack Obama Admits: Energy Prices Will Skyrocket Under Cap And Trade

Only one solution then. Raise taxes on the rich. Costs might go up for us a little, but they can only put the burden on us so much. At that point, the rich need to chip in a little more.

If the status quo is unacceptable. Is it? Can we just continue doing what we are doing now indefinately? These are things I need to know.

And will this eventually save us money? Like putting solar panels on your home is expensive, but will save you money in the long run.

So no, don't raise rates too much on the average Michigander. A little won't kill anyone. But beyond that, we need some help from the rich.

And maybe their going to cut taxes elsewhere. If they give me a $85 tax break on my paycheck and heating prices go up $85, it's a wash.

But to jack up seniors heat bills without a safety net? No.

Maybe they won't let any seniors suffer. Maybe that's in the bill. I don't have all the answers.

I'm sure you will point out the negatives and then we can either agree or disagree/debunk.

Unemployment report is OUT--we just lost another 470,000 THOUSAND JOBS in June. A perfect example of Reaganomics versus Obamanomics. WE CANNOT BORROW & SPEND OUR WAY TO PROSPERITY. Right now the Federal government is borrowing .50 cents on every dollar they're spending.

Anyone who believes that by installing an "energy tax" aka "punishment tax" will NOT kill millions of jobs in this country is completely lost in basic economics. This bill will send what manufacturing jobs we still have left -- running overseas if passed. Millions will lose their jobs in energy related fields.

The Cap & Trade bill is nothing more than a tax bill--that will not lead to "greener energy".

Like Alan Grayson --democrat of Florida--who was promised 50 million for his YES vote--from these energy pollution permits to build a new hurricane center in Florida. This bill is nothing more than a tax & spend bill.

 

[sealybobo]

Where are your facts faggot ?

I'll give you two:

1) OBAMA ADMITTED electricity costs will SKYROCKET under cap and trade.

2) Since your clown ass loves to bring up Iraq so much, now Obama is taking CREDIT for the SUCCESS in Iraq when he was one of the main needledicks OPPOSED to the surge. Gotta love you asshole dems .......

Oh so now you believe everything Obama says? Usually you call him a liar.

See, a perfect example of a right wing fool who doesn't know any facts beyond "the surge worked".

Did they change any other tactics?

Was it the surge alone or maybe did we pay off local militia's for a truce too?

Is the truce over or will the truce last forever?

How about political reconciliation?

Which group killed 4 US soldiers the other day? Sunni, shiite, al queda, kurds, were they Iranian?

You don't know dick.

You dumb fuck, admitting electricity rates will go up is just him covering his ass, the lies are global warming, green jobs, energy independence, were going to save the earth, etc.....

Don't question me on Iraq, question your boy Obama who now wants to take credit for the work of the Bush administration. A refreshing change from Obama blaming Bush for everything huh ? ......

How is admitting prices will go up covering his ass?

Credit the Bush regime for Iraq? For what? For dragging on the war because the more time we spent there the more money Haloborton/Blackwater/KBR/Hunt Oil made? War for profit. They only showed us token progress when we demanded to get out. And only stupid Americans swallowed every excuse/lie/spin. You being one of them.

Republicans argued why we had to stay, never talking about when we would go. Delay, destract, decete, destroy America is all the GOP did. And never talking about why we were paying the bill. They socialized only the losses and privatized all of the profits.

Democrats argued for getting out of Iraq. Are they doing it fast enough? Fuck no! Is Iraq fixed? Fuck no!!! Is Mook Tada El Sadr going to one day run Iraq and be our enemy? Probably. So all for nothing.

You owe how much for Iraq? $30K? Probably an exxagerated number, but you get the point.

What benefit did we get for $30K per person? Sucker!!!

How much did Haloburton make?

Beginning to realize you got scammed stupid? Not yet? Maybe I expected too much.

 

[concept]

in short WJ, under cap and tax the price of everything (and I do mean everything) that uses any type of fossil fuel derived energy in its production and distribution will rise considerably.

We shall see. I wouldn't take your word for it though. You are a fear mongerer.

I emailed Obama yesterday that he/they have done a horrible job selling Cap and Trade to America. Seems more like they rushed it thru over the holidays and the righties are saying that its going to cost each person $1500. The Dems have the majorities now, so the media has to listen to them and report what they say. Why are they not denying the rumors, if they are rumors?

But this may be just another lie from the right. I hope so. Then they'll have even less credibility, if that is even possible.

I don't think Republicans will ever change. They just hope/wait for the Dems to fuck up and thats how they win. It isn't like the GOP learned their lesson and now will act better. Instead they stick to their guns, insist tax breaks work and continue to say Dems raised taxes, even if they didn't.

And the bankers spent $9 trillion in the last 8 months, starting on Bush's watch skull. $9 trillion!!! You're bitching about $700 bill tarp and $700 stimulus and not $9 trillion? Oldest trick in the book. Distract you with the left and steal with the right. And then in 4 years you'll say Obama doubled the debt, when in fact the bankers did it, and they did it half on Bush's watch and half on Obama's, but you'll say it was Obama, I'll say it was Bush, and the bankers will still own all of us and all of this.

Voters are morons.

How about the media do it's damn job instead of parotting Obama's talking points? How about a little investigative journalism instead of falling all over themselves to see who can kiss his ass longest?

And yeah, liberal voters are morons. They voted for a useless snakeoil salesman without knowing anything except he had a D after his name.

 

[sealybobo]

You know sealy there are two reps. in that video from MI. one a democrat and one a republican. By not watching it you do yourself a diservice. I was under the impression you wanted jobs there in MI. and the economy to come out of the tank? You do know the CBO in that very same report says that your bills on everything will go up don't you? The one congressman from Mi. in that video states that 1 out of 3 Mi. residents are at least 1 month behind paying utility bills due to struggling to pay bills. What do you suppose a rate hike will do to that? Do you think it will help or hurt? How many companies do you think that are teetering on the edge need that extra push to go under because of a rise in transportation costs, utilities, goods, ? Do you think that will help Mi.? The CBO report spells all that out quite clearly this bill is a tax bill to generate revenue for the Federal Govt. I will put another video up for you that you might like even better as it has Obama in it....

YouTube - Barack Obama Admits: Energy Prices Will Skyrocket Under Cap And Trade

Only one solution then. Raise taxes on the rich. Costs might go up for us a little, but they can only put the burden on us so much. At that point, the rich need to chip in a little more.

If the status quo is unacceptable. Is it? Can we just continue doing what we are doing now indefinately? These are things I need to know.

And will this eventually save us money? Like putting solar panels on your home is expensive, but will save you money in the long run.

So no, don't raise rates too much on the average Michigander. A little won't kill anyone. But beyond that, we need some help from the rich.

And maybe their going to cut taxes elsewhere. If they give me a $85 tax break on my paycheck and heating prices go up $85, it's a wash.

But to jack up seniors heat bills without a safety net? No.

Maybe they won't let any seniors suffer. Maybe that's in the bill. I don't have all the answers.

I'm sure you will point out the negatives and then we can either agree or disagree/debunk.

Unemployment report is OUT--we just lost another 470,000 THOUSAND JOBS in June.

Anyone who believes that by installing an "energy tax" aka "punishment tax" is not going to kill millions of jobs in this country is completely lost in basic economics.

The Cap & Trade bill is nothing more than a tax bill--that will not lead to "greener energy".

Like Alan Grayson --democrat of Florida--who was promised 50 million for his YES vote--from these energy pollution permits to build a new hurricane center in Florida. This bill is nothing more than a tax & spend bill.

You didn't care when we lost millions of manufacturing jobs overseas. Those were good paying jobs. Why now do you care about jobs? Now sell me like you made me sell you.

And just like the line workers who made too much, fuck the people will lose their jobs, right? Isn't that what you said the last 8 years? You said this is America and they can find other jobs.

But when it comes to killing a wasteful defense contract, you worry about jobs.

Or when its the healthcare insurance deniers, you worry for their jobs.

Why would Cap and Trade cost millions of jobs? Maybe we should take healthcare off companies plate then so they can afford this.

Doing business in America costs money. Same as if you go to Miami beach and try to order a hamburger. Its gonna cost $20. But you can get a hamburger in Ft. Lauderdale for $1. So go to Ft. Lauderdale then!!! If you want to be in Miami/America, you have to pay.

If you want to be in Mexico/China/India, go!!

And the very simple solution is to raise taxes on the rich. Problem solved. No reason to even debate. And don't charge poor people too much. Figure out a happy medium.

 

[oreo]

Only one solution then. Raise taxes on the rich. Costs might go up for us a little, but they can only put the burden on us so much. At that point, the rich need to chip in a little more.

If the status quo is unacceptable. Is it? Can we just continue doing what we are doing now indefinately? These are things I need to know.

And will this eventually save us money? Like putting solar panels on your home is expensive, but will save you money in the long run.

So no, don't raise rates too much on the average Michigander. A little won't kill anyone. But beyond that, we need some help from the rich.

And maybe their going to cut taxes elsewhere. If they give me a $85 tax break on my paycheck and heating prices go up $85, it's a wash.

But to jack up seniors heat bills without a safety net? No.

Maybe they won't let any seniors suffer. Maybe that's in the bill. I don't have all the answers.

I'm sure you will point out the negatives and then we can either agree or disagree/debunk.

Unemployment report is OUT--we just lost another 470,000 THOUSAND JOBS in June.

Anyone who believes that by installing an "energy tax" aka "punishment tax" is not going to kill millions of jobs in this country is completely lost in basic economics.

The Cap & Trade bill is nothing more than a tax bill--that will not lead to "greener energy".

Like Alan Grayson --democrat of Florida--who was promised 50 million for his YES vote--from these energy pollution permits to build a new hurricane center in Florida. This bill is nothing more than a tax & spend bill.

You didn't care when we lost millions of manufacturing jobs overseas. Those were good paying jobs. Why now do you care about jobs? Now sell me like you made me sell you.

And just like the line workers who made too much, fuck the people will lose their jobs, right? Isn't that what you said the last 8 years? You said this is America and they can find other jobs.

But when it comes to killing a wasteful defense contract, you worry about jobs.

Or when its the healthcare insurance deniers, you worry for their jobs.

Why would Cap and Trade cost millions of jobs? Maybe we should take healthcare off companies plate then so they can afford this.

Doing business in America costs money. Same as if you go to Miami beach and try to order a hamburger. Its gonna cost $20. But you can get a hamburger in Ft. Lauderdale for $1. So go to Ft. Lauderdale then!!! If you want to be in Miami/America, you have to pay.

If you want to be in Mexico/China/India, go!!

And the very simple solution is to raise taxes on the rich. Problem solved. No reason to even debate. And don't charge poor people too much. Figure out a happy medium.

Hate to bust into your little bubble world BOBO--but most manufacturing jobs went overseas DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION! when they were taxed at 39%--the highest in the WORLD. Obama wants to raise those corporate tax rates back to 39%--from their existing 33%.

You want to keep jobs in this country you lower CORPORATE tax rates! DUH! By doing this--since CORPORATIONS can also be SPELLED--J.O.B.S actually brings in more tax revenue. What is it you do not understand about basic economics 101?

 

[driveby]

Oh so now you believe everything Obama says? Usually you call him a liar.

See, a perfect example of a right wing fool who doesn't know any facts beyond "the surge worked".

Did they change any other tactics?

Was it the surge alone or maybe did we pay off local militia's for a truce too?

Is the truce over or will the truce last forever?

How about political reconciliation?

Which group killed 4 US soldiers the other day? Sunni, shiite, al queda, kurds, were they Iranian?

You don't know dick.

You dumb fuck, admitting electricity rates will go up is just him covering his ass, the lies are global warming, green jobs, energy independence, were going to save the earth, etc.....

Don't question me on Iraq, question your boy Obama who now wants to take credit for the work of the Bush administration. A refreshing change from Obama blaming Bush for everything huh ? ......

How is admitting prices will go up covering his ass?

Credit the Bush regime for Iraq? For what? For dragging on the war because the more time we spent there the more money Haloborton/Blackwater/KBR/Hunt Oil made? War for profit. They only showed us token progress when we demanded to get out. And only stupid Americans swallowed every excuse/lie/spin. You being one of them.

Republicans argued why we had to stay, never talking about when we would go. Delay, destract, decete, destroy America is all the GOP did. And never talking about why we were paying the bill. They socialized only the losses and privatized all of the profits.

Democrats argued for getting out of Iraq. Are they doing it fast enough? Fuck no! Is Iraq fixed? Fuck no!!! Is Mook Tada El Sadr going to one day run Iraq and be our enemy? Probably. So all for nothing.

You owe how much for Iraq? $30K? Probably an exxagerated number, but you get the point.

What benefit did we get for $30K per person? Sucker!!!

How much did Haloburton make?

Beginning to realize you got scammed stupid? Not yet? Maybe I expected too much.

Why is Obama taking credit for success in Iraq ?

Iraq is peanuts compared to what Oblahma is doing and yet to do. All this Haliburton whining by you Michael Moore worshippers is ok, but clowns like you and the state run media remain silent about GE..........

Hack on, hackoppotimus ..........

 

[driveby]

in short WJ, under cap and tax the price of everything (and I do mean everything) that uses any type of fossil fuel derived energy in its production and distribution will rise considerably.

We shall see. I wouldn't take your word for it though. You are a fear mongerer.

I emailed Obama yesterday that he/they have done a horrible job selling Cap and Trade to America. Seems more like they rushed it thru over the holidays and the righties are saying that its going to cost each person $1500. The Dems have the majorities now, so the media has to listen to them and report what they say. Why are they not denying the rumors, if they are rumors?

But this may be just another lie from the right. I hope so. Then they'll have even less credibility, if that is even possible.

I don't think Republicans will ever change. They just hope/wait for the Dems to fuck up and thats how they win. It isn't like the GOP learned their lesson and now will act better. Instead they stick to their guns, insist tax breaks work and continue to say Dems raised taxes, even if they didn't.

And the bankers spent $9 trillion in the last 8 months, starting on Bush's watch skull. $9 trillion!!! You're bitching about $700 bill tarp and $700 stimulus and not $9 trillion? Oldest trick in the book. Distract you with the left and steal with the right. And then in 4 years you'll say Obama doubled the debt, when in fact the bankers did it, and they did it half on Bush's watch and half on Obama's, but you'll say it was Obama, I'll say it was Bush, and the bankers will still own all of us and all of this.

Voters are morons.

How about the media do it's damn job instead of parotting Obama's talking points? How about a little investigative journalism instead of falling all over themselves to see who can kiss his ass longest?

And yeah, liberal voters are morons. They voted for a useless snakeoil salesman without knowing anything except he had a D after his name.

Exactly, Obama sends a thrill up their leg when he speaks ......

 

[sealybobo]

in short WJ, under cap and tax the price of everything (and I do mean everything) that uses any type of fossil fuel derived energy in its production and distribution will rise considerably.

We shall see. I wouldn't take your word for it though. You are a fear mongerer.

I emailed Obama yesterday that he/they have done a horrible job selling Cap and Trade to America. Seems more like they rushed it thru over the holidays and the righties are saying that its going to cost each person $1500. The Dems have the majorities now, so the media has to listen to them and report what they say. Why are they not denying the rumors, if they are rumors?

But this may be just another lie from the right. I hope so. Then they'll have even less credibility, if that is even possible.

I don't think Republicans will ever change. They just hope/wait for the Dems to fuck up and thats how they win. It isn't like the GOP learned their lesson and now will act better. Instead they stick to their guns, insist tax breaks work and continue to say Dems raised taxes, even if they didn't.

And the bankers spent $9 trillion in the last 8 months, starting on Bush's watch skull. $9 trillion!!! You're bitching about $700 bill tarp and $700 stimulus and not $9 trillion? Oldest trick in the book. Distract you with the left and steal with the right. And then in 4 years you'll say Obama doubled the debt, when in fact the bankers did it, and they did it half on Bush's watch and half on Obama's, but you'll say it was Obama, I'll say it was Bush, and the bankers will still own all of us and all of this.

Voters are morons.

How about the media do it's damn job instead of parotting Obama's talking points? How about a little investigative journalism instead of falling all over themselves to see who can kiss his ass longest?

And yeah, liberal voters are morons. They voted for a useless snakeoil salesman without knowing anything except he had a D after his name.

The only problem we have with Obama is that he's too much like McCain/Bush. He's not pushing our fucking liberal mandate thru. Keeps saying he doesn't have the votes, waaaaa! Bush got everything he wanted done with under 60 votes. So Obama hasn't made us liberals happy yet.

PS. The media isn't liberal anymore. Corporations own it and they only tell you as much as they want you to know. If it seems liberal, thats because they are clever about it. They don't want to be obvious.

Watch MSNBC. It may be the one exception. It is liberal. But even they won't speak the total truth because they are controlled too.

Like, they will talk about the $700 tarp and the $700 stimulus bill, but they won't talk about the Federal Reserve loaning out $9 trillion in the last 8 months. Don't you find that strange?

One Penny Sheet » Federal Reserve Cannot Account for $9 Trillion video

Don't you find that strange the "liberal" media decided that this information would not be interesting to the tea baggers who are crying over billions???

Don't you think the liberal media would like America to know the bankers doubled our debt in just 8 months?

Or point out that this started on Bush's watch?

You want liberal? Huffington Post, Air America and MSNBC. Other than that, don't tell us who represents us.

It only makes you seem stupid.

 

[sealybobo]

We shall see. I wouldn't take your word for it though. You are a fear mongerer.

I emailed Obama yesterday that he/they have done a horrible job selling Cap and Trade to America. Seems more like they rushed it thru over the holidays and the righties are saying that its going to cost each person $1500. The Dems have the majorities now, so the media has to listen to them and report what they say. Why are they not denying the rumors, if they are rumors?

But this may be just another lie from the right. I hope so. Then they'll have even less credibility, if that is even possible.

I don't think Republicans will ever change. They just hope/wait for the Dems to fuck up and thats how they win. It isn't like the GOP learned their lesson and now will act better. Instead they stick to their guns, insist tax breaks work and continue to say Dems raised taxes, even if they didn't.

And the bankers spent $9 trillion in the last 8 months, starting on Bush's watch skull. $9 trillion!!! You're bitching about $700 bill tarp and $700 stimulus and not $9 trillion? Oldest trick in the book. Distract you with the left and steal with the right. And then in 4 years you'll say Obama doubled the debt, when in fact the bankers did it, and they did it half on Bush's watch and half on Obama's, but you'll say it was Obama, I'll say it was Bush, and the bankers will still own all of us and all of this.

Voters are morons.

How about the media do it's damn job instead of parotting Obama's talking points? How about a little investigative journalism instead of falling all over themselves to see who can kiss his ass longest?

And yeah, liberal voters are morons. They voted for a useless snakeoil salesman without knowing anything except he had a D after his name.

Exactly, Obama sends a thrill up their leg when he speaks ......

That's MSNBC, and even they give equal time to guys like Tancrado, Delay, Rove & Buchanan.

So they are liberal, but not as liberal as Fox is right wing.

 

[sealybobo]

You dumb fuck, admitting electricity rates will go up is just him covering his ass, the lies are global warming, green jobs, energy independence, were going to save the earth, etc.....

Don't question me on Iraq, question your boy Obama who now wants to take credit for the work of the Bush administration. A refreshing change from Obama blaming Bush for everything huh ? ......

How is admitting prices will go up covering his ass?

Credit the Bush regime for Iraq? For what? For dragging on the war because the more time we spent there the more money Haloborton/Blackwater/KBR/Hunt Oil made? War for profit. They only showed us token progress when we demanded to get out. And only stupid Americans swallowed every excuse/lie/spin. You being one of them.

Republicans argued why we had to stay, never talking about when we would go. Delay, destract, decete, destroy America is all the GOP did. And never talking about why we were paying the bill. They socialized only the losses and privatized all of the profits.

Democrats argued for getting out of Iraq. Are they doing it fast enough? Fuck no! Is Iraq fixed? Fuck no!!! Is Mook Tada El Sadr going to one day run Iraq and be our enemy? Probably. So all for nothing.

You owe how much for Iraq? $30K? Probably an exxagerated number, but you get the point.

What benefit did we get for $30K per person? Sucker!!!

How much did Haloburton make?

Beginning to realize you got scammed stupid? Not yet? Maybe I expected too much.

Why is Obama taking credit for success in Iraq ?

Iraq is peanuts compared to what Oblahma is doing and yet to do. All this Haliburton whining by you Michael Moore worshippers is ok, but clowns like you and the state run media remain silent about GE..........

Hack on, hackoppotimus ..........

Tell me more about what Obama is doing and yet to do.

Tell me about GE too.

 

[concept]

1. It won't cost jobs. Let them try to flee. That'll be great for their competition. And we'll tax them on the way out. And then they can sell their shit to Mexico, India, China or god forbid socialist Europe.

2. It'll create jobs

3. It won't cost individuals as much as you say

4. It was necessary

5. We found a way to pay for the Iraq war, we can find a way to get this done

6. And who owns the energy companies anyways? Aren't they public owned? Or are they owned like the Federal Reserve/Oil Companies/Media?


7. I see a lot of new green start up companies. That's good.

Where are your facts faggot ?

I'll give you two:

1) OBAMA ADMITTED electricity costs will SKYROCKET under cap and trade.

2) Since your clown ass loves to bring up Iraq so much, now Obama is taking CREDIT for the SUCCESS in Iraq when he was one of the main needledicks OPPOSED to the surge. Gotta love you asshole dems .......

Oh so now you believe everything Obama says? Usually you call him a liar.

See, a perfect example of a right wing fool who doesn't know any facts beyond "the surge worked".

Did they change any other tactics?

Was it the surge alone or maybe did we pay off local militia's for a truce too?

Is the truce over or will the truce last forever?

How about political reconciliation?

Which group killed 4 US soldiers the other day? Sunni, shiite, al queda, kurds, were they Iranian?

You don't know dick.

yes usually when the moron is off the teleprompter, he says some things like that.

And like the redistribution of wealth comment.


So tell us lib. Do you want him redistributing your wealth?
And don't bother telling me that yes, you are ok with it. We all know that libs are selfish pricks.

 

[oreo]

We shall see. I wouldn't take your word for it though. You are a fear mongerer.

I emailed Obama yesterday that he/they have done a horrible job selling Cap and Trade to America. Seems more like they rushed it thru over the holidays and the righties are saying that its going to cost each person $1500. The Dems have the majorities now, so the media has to listen to them and report what they say. Why are they not denying the rumors, if they are rumors?

But this may be just another lie from the right. I hope so. Then they'll have even less credibility, if that is even possible.

I don't think Republicans will ever change. They just hope/wait for the Dems to fuck up and thats how they win. It isn't like the GOP learned their lesson and now will act better. Instead they stick to their guns, insist tax breaks work and continue to say Dems raised taxes, even if they didn't.

And the bankers spent $9 trillion in the last 8 months, starting on Bush's watch skull. $9 trillion!!! You're bitching about $700 bill tarp and $700 stimulus and not $9 trillion? Oldest trick in the book. Distract you with the left and steal with the right. And then in 4 years you'll say Obama doubled the debt, when in fact the bankers did it, and they did it half on Bush's watch and half on Obama's, but you'll say it was Obama, I'll say it was Bush, and the bankers will still own all of us and all of this.

Voters are morons.

How about the media do it's damn job instead of parotting Obama's talking points? How about a little investigative journalism instead of falling all over themselves to see who can kiss his ass longest?

And yeah, liberal voters are morons. They voted for a useless snakeoil salesman without knowing anything except he had a D after his name.

Exactly, Obama sends a thrill up their leg when he speaks ......

The media is starting to CAVE in around the "messiah's head "---DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO ON THIS BOARD--under the media thread? HELEN THOMAS --decades long White House Press Core & ULTRA LIBERAL is stating that this administration is trying to CONTOL THE FREE PRESS!

Also in this video is PROOF that all questions are PRE-SELECTED & STAGED. Including Obama's town hall meetings.

Unbelieveable coming from her!