Can we compare the PLO , including Hamas and Fatah the same as

[Phoenall]

He was a changed man, of course about 30 years older of hard labor. Without the new Pres. who had him released and worked with him, the apartheid would not of ended with just him out of prison, it took two on the opposite side. I have seen nothing where the Israel gov has been really willing to work with Hamas, or the PLO, they have just announce more apt building, and last month the arrested about 350 more Pals, and even a girl the age of 14 in prison for throwing rocks.

Also you saying that Mandela was wrong for what he and many did, revolted , and well that is like saying they should of just laid down and be treated like second rate citizens. At that rate we'd still have slaves down south in the USA and segregation on buses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._de_Klerk

De Klerk brokered the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supported the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

No. I'm not saying Mandela was wrong for having revolted.

I'm saying terrorism - against innocent people - was wrong.

Mandella made up for that by his message and the remainder of life pushing for reconciliation OVER further violence. His actions united his country and earned him the respect of both blacks and whites.

In terms of Hamas - what specifically have they done for reconciliation? Have they renounced violence? Have they recognized Israel's right to exist?

Granted Israel is no angel, but you're making comparisons with Mandela/ANC and Hamas and Fatah. What actions has Hamas engaged in other than terrorism, that is comparable to ANC? Who is Hamas' Mandela?

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

Yes the ANC was fighting the apartheid gov. aka Israel today.

The ANC was mass murdering thousands of blacks every year and terrorising them till they rose up and demanded change. Now they want white rule back and the neo Marxists in control arresting on charges of mass murder, terrorism and false imprisonment

 

[Phoenall]

No. I'm not saying Mandela was wrong for having revolted.

I'm saying terrorism - against innocent people - was wrong.

Mandella made up for that by his message and the remainder of life pushing for reconciliation OVER further violence. His actions united his country and earned him the respect of both blacks and whites.

In terms of Hamas - what specifically have they done for reconciliation? Have they renounced violence? Have they recognized Israel's right to exist?

Granted Israel is no angel, but you're making comparisons with Mandela/ANC and Hamas and Fatah. What actions has Hamas engaged in other than terrorism, that is comparable to ANC? Who is Hamas' Mandela?

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

Yes the ANC was fighting the apartheid gov. aka Israel today.

This of course the conclusion that you are trying to force falsely..just like montelatici or whatever, Israel is not even close to be an apartheid which is why you cannot compare SA apartheid to Israel..welcome to my ignore list!

Israel treats the Palestinians far worse than the white South Africans treated the non-whites. That's the only part that is not comparable. I welcome being on your ignore list, it means the truth has finally won.

So what should the Israelis do then in your view when hamas fire rockets at schools hoping to murder Israeli children. Or the fatah terrorists drive at Israeli children in cars hoping to kill them for the glory of allah.
Should they hand the Palestinians the keys to the alleged nuclear weapons
Should they pack their bags and leave giving everthing to the Palestinians
Should they sign their own death warrants by agreeing to the pre conditions

OR SHOULD THEY RETALIATE AND SHOW THE PALESTINIANS THAT VIOLENCE BEGETS MORE VIOLENCE AND IN THE END THEY ARE THE ONES THAT SUFFER THE MOST.

 

[Phoenall]

You are saying that the ANC are the same as ISIS and Al Qaeda?

YES they are all terrorist groups that have murdered millions of innocents between them in the name of their twisted evil ideologies. And to this list you can add hamas and fatah

 

[Challenger]

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

the ANC was anti apartheid , so no it was not like Israel. That is true.

Israel has very real inequities between it's treatment of Jewish citizens and it's Arab citizens, it occupies the Palestinians and enforces military law over civilians there, even children. BUT - this is a big but - it's not apartheid. It's unjust and unequal, but apartheid went much further: Apartheid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure what you'd call it then, and also did you read this art. about Israel and Africa's relationship referenced in that art
Israel South Africa relations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Interesting article, and no I had not read it, I didn't realize that part of Israel/SA history and Israel was certainly late in finally condemning aparthied.

I do see major difference here though. Apartheid was legislated into SA's legal framework: Apartheid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It included
The Population Registration act which created a formal racial classification, introduced an identity card specifying their racial groups and for those who's race was unclear, a board determined racial classification. This often resulted in seperating families due to different racial classifications. I can see some similarity with Israel's residency permit system that splits families.

Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act prohibiting marriage between races and criminalizing sexual relations between different races. Israel has nothing like that.

Reservation of Seperate Amenities Act - essentially Jim Crowe. Israel has some degree of seperation but it's defacto rather than set up as part of it's legal framework. It can be challanged and changed, if there is the will with out major changes to any laws. In fact it has been challanged in Israeli courts when it comes to refusing admittence of non-Jews to live in certain areas.

Biggest Key Difference -- Israel contains many non-Jewish minorities including a substantial Arab population that shares, in theory, the same rights as the Jewish population. They can vote in all elections, they are offered the same legal protections and rights. That doesn't mean it works that way, there is substantial discrimmination, inequities in the granting of building permits, village expansions, money's allocated to infrastructure and education. But it's not hardwired in the legal system and apartheid was.

Not yet perhaps, but legality aside, it is people's attitudes that lead to future laws:


IRIN Middle East ISRAEL The tribulations of being an Ethiopian Jew Israel Conflict Governance Human Rights Migration Urban Risk
Where Was God When Israel Deported African Refugees David Sheen

 

[Challenger]

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

Yes the ANC was fighting the apartheid gov. aka Israel today.

This of course the conclusion that you are trying to force falsely..just like montelatici or whatever, Israel is not even close to be an apartheid which is why you cannot compare SA apartheid to Israel..welcome to my ignore list!

Israel treats the Palestinians far worse than the white South Africans treated the non-whites. That's the only part that is not comparable. I welcome being on your ignore list, it means the truth has finally won.

So what should the Israelis do then in your view when hamas fire rockets at schools hoping to murder Israeli children. Or the fatah terrorists drive at Israeli children in cars hoping to kill them for the glory of allah.
Should they hand the Palestinians the keys to the alleged nuclear weapons
Should they pack their bags and leave giving everthing to the Palestinians
Should they sign their own death warrants by agreeing to the pre conditions

OR SHOULD THEY RETALIATE AND SHOW THE PALESTINIANS THAT VIOLENCE BEGETS MORE VIOLENCE AND IN THE END THEY ARE THE ONES THAT SUFFER THE MOST.

No. they should deploy Iron Dome, sit back and giggle at the ineffective firewoks getting vaporised in mid air.....that is of course, if Iron Dome works like it's supposed to.

Pre-contitions? You mean:
a) halting all construction and renovation within the West Bank and eastern Jerusalem
b) immediately releasiing Palestinian prisoners held in Israel
c) submitting a map of the final borders
d) turning over parts of Area C, currently under Israeli security and civil control, to Palestinians
e) promising never to withhold Palestinian tax revenues for any reason in the future.

Not a "death warrant" in sight.

Retaliate? They've been showing Palestinians that violence begets more violence since the 1930's; that's worked well hasn't it? Maybe negotiating in good faith for once would produce a better result than repeated attempts at mass extermination.

 

[Challenger]

You are saying that the ANC are the same as ISIS and Al Qaeda?

YES they are all terrorist groups that have murdered millions of innocents between them in the name of their twisted evil ideologies. And to this list you can add hamas and fatah

...and the IDF, IAF, Mossad...

 

[Phoenall]

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

Yes the ANC was fighting the apartheid gov. aka Israel today.

This of course the conclusion that you are trying to force falsely..just like montelatici or whatever, Israel is not even close to be an apartheid which is why you cannot compare SA apartheid to Israel..welcome to my ignore list!

Israel treats the Palestinians far worse than the white South Africans treated the non-whites. That's the only part that is not comparable. I welcome being on your ignore list, it means the truth has finally won.

So what should the Israelis do then in your view when hamas fire rockets at schools hoping to murder Israeli children. Or the fatah terrorists drive at Israeli children in cars hoping to kill them for the glory of allah.
Should they hand the Palestinians the keys to the alleged nuclear weapons
Should they pack their bags and leave giving everthing to the Palestinians
Should they sign their own death warrants by agreeing to the pre conditions

OR SHOULD THEY RETALIATE AND SHOW THE PALESTINIANS THAT VIOLENCE BEGETS MORE VIOLENCE AND IN THE END THEY ARE THE ONES THAT SUFFER THE MOST.

No. they should deploy Iron Dome, sit back and giggle at the ineffective firewoks getting vaporised in mid air.....that is of course, if Iron Dome works like it's supposed to.

Pre-contitions? You mean:
a) halting all construction and renovation within the West Bank and eastern Jerusalem
b) immediately releasiing Palestinian prisoners held in Israel
c) submitting a map of the final borders
d) turning over parts of Area C, currently under Israeli security and civil control, to Palestinians
e) promising never to withhold Palestinian tax revenues for any reason in the future.

Not a "death warrant" in sight.

Retaliate? They've been showing Palestinians that violence begets more violence since the 1930's; that's worked well hasn't it? Maybe negotiating in good faith for once would produce a better result than repeated attempts at mass extermination.

Then the Palestinians have to also stop all construction and "renovation" in Jerusalem.

They are criminals so they should face justice.

They can only be negotiated not declared as Palestine wants to do

Only after negotiation

Only after negotiation.

And what about the hebron massacre of 1929 then, before your date for the start of the violence. So yest the Jews have been showing the Palestinians that their violence begets violence against them. and at the moment it is 100 times more effective. Palestinian mentality when you are down and out keep digging the hole deeper

 

[Phoenall]

You are saying that the ANC are the same as ISIS and Al Qaeda?

YES they are all terrorist groups that have murdered millions of innocents between them in the name of their twisted evil ideologies. And to this list you can add hamas and fatah

...and the IDF, IAF, Mossad...

NOPE not on any list other than the ISLAMONAZI one. They defend against terrorism coming from the Palestinians, Syria, Iran and others.