Can Capitalism and Democracy Coexist?

[georgephillip]

Chris Hedges interviews 92 year-old Sheldon Wolin, a political philosopher who witnessed the rise of the three great totalitarian movements of the early 20th Century: Bolshevism, Nazism, and Corporatism.

One one has survived, and it's due to the inverted nature of its totalitarian structure.

HEDGES begins by probing the significance of this inversion:

"So let's begin with this concept of inverted totalitarianism, which has antecedents. And in your great work Politics and Vision, you reach back all the way to the Greeks, up through the present age, to talk about the evolution of political philosophy. What do you mean by it?

SHELDON WOLIN, PROF. POLITICS EMERITUS, PRINCETON: Well, I mean by it that in the inverted idea, it's the idea that democracy has been, in effect, turned upside down.

"It's supposed to be a government by the people and for the people and all the rest of the sort of rhetoric we're used to, but it's become now so patently an organized form of government dominated by groups which are only vaguely, if at all, responsible or even responsive to popular needs and popular demands.

"But at the same time, it retains a kind of pattern of democracy, because we still have elections, they're still relatively free in any conventional sense.

"We have a relatively free media.

"But what's missing from it is a kind of crucial continuous opposition which has a coherent position, and is not just saying, no, no, no but has got an alternative, and above all has got an ongoing critique of what's wrong and what needs to be remedied.

HEDGES: You juxtapose inverted totalitarianism to classical totalitarianism--fascism, communism--and you say that there are very kind of distinct differences between these two types of totalitarianism. What are those differences?

Hedges Wolin 1 8 Can Capitalism and Democracy Coexist

 

[JakeStarkey]

Of course regulated capitalism can co-exist with democracy.

 

[georgephillip]

Of course regulated capitalism can co-exist with democracy.

I think the argument Wolin and Hedges are making is that regulation falls victim to corporate bribes, so it becomes essentially useless as far as democratic control of an economy is concerned.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I understand that, gp. A democratic government works only as well as a democratically enlightened and virtuous people.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Sure. As long as the commons are not privatized.

That's why we have liberals.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

regulation falls victim to corporate bribes, so it becomes essentially useless as far as democratic control of an economy is concerned.

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

 

[georgephillip]

I understand that, gp. A democratic government works only as well as a democratically enlightened and virtuous people.

And a people with a reasonable understanding of the economic system they live under. For example, I haven't yet found a good explanation for the following quote:
"'The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests.'
The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863."
What "tremendous advantage" does capital derive from a central banking system?
Famous Quotations on Banking

 

[georgephillip]

Sure. As long as the commons are not privatized.

That's why we have liberals.

"The rise of capitalist practice and morality brought with it a radical revision of how the commons are treated, and also of how they are conceived.

"The prevailing view today is captured by Garrett Hardin’s influential argument that 'freedom in a commons brings ruin to us all,' the famous 'tragedy of the commons': what is not owned will be destroyed by individual avarice.

"An international counterpart was the concept of terra nullius, employed to justify the expulsion of indigenous populations in the settler-colonial societies of the Anglosphere, or their 'extermination,' as the founding fathers of the American Republic described what they were doing, sometimes with remorse, after the fact.

"According to this useful doctrine, the Indians had no property rights since they were just wanderers in an untamed wilderness. And the hard-working colonists could create value where there was none by turning that same wilderness to commercial use."

Destroying the Commons How the Magna Carta Became a Minor Carta

 

[georgephillip]

regulation falls victim to corporate bribes, so it becomes essentially useless as far as democratic control of an economy is concerned.

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

Surely, you jest...
"Capitalism Requires Government

"Americans need to realize that our economy has thrived not in spite of government, but in many ways because of government."

"Without a whole host of government rules, capitalism could not exist. Even regulations and social programs help sustain a market economy by fixing many of its serious social and economic problems.

"One of the most common and misleading economic myths in the United States is the idea that the free market is 'natural' – that it exists in some natural world, separate from government. In this view, government rules and regulations only 'interfere' with the natural beneficial workings of the market.

"Even the term 'free market' implies that it can exist free from government and that it prospers best when government leaves it alone.

"Nothing could be further from the truth.

"In reality, a market economy does not exist separate from government – it is very much a product of government rules and regulations.

"The dirty little secret of our 'free' market system is that it would simply not exist as we know it without the presence of an active government that creates and maintains the rules and conditions that allow it to operate efficiently."

Now you know.
Your beloved "free" market would not exist without government.

Government is Good - Capitalism Requires Government

 

[Truman123]

Thanks for posting. Big Hedges fan.

 

[georgephillip]

Thanks for posting. Big Hedges fan.

You're welcome.
I've been a big fan on Chris for several years, and now he's introduced me to Sheldon Wolin and Inverted Totalitarianism.
The following is from May 2003:
"The war on Iraq has so monopolized public attention as to obscure the regime change taking place in the Homeland.

'We may have invaded Iraq to bring in democracy and bring down a totalitarian regime, but in the process our own system may be moving closer to the latter and further weakening the former.

"The change has been intimated by the sudden popularity of two political terms rarely applied earlier to the American political system. 'Empire' and 'superpower' both suggest that a new system of power, concentrated and expansive, has come into existence and supplanted the old terms.

"'Empire' and 'superpower' accurately symbolize the projection of American power abroad, but for that reason they obscure the internal consequences.

"Consider how odd it would sound if we were to refer to 'the Constitution of the American Empire' or 'superpower democracy.'

"The reason they ring false is that 'constitution' signifies limitations on power, while 'democracy' commonly refers to the active involvement of citizens with their government and the responsiveness of government to its citizens.

"For their part, 'empire' and 'superpower' stand for the surpassing of limits and the dwarfing of the citizenry."
Inverted Totalitarianism The Nation

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Thanks for posting. Big Hedges fan.

You're welcome.
I've been a big fan on Chris for several years, and now he's introduced me to Sheldon Wolin and Inverted Totalitarianism.
The following is from May 2003:
"The war on Iraq has so monopolized public attention as to obscure the regime change taking place in the Homeland.

'We may have invaded Iraq to bring in democracy and bring down a totalitarian regime, but in the process our own system may be moving closer to the latter and further weakening the former.

"The change has been intimated by the sudden popularity of two political terms rarely applied earlier to the American political system. 'Empire' and 'superpower' both suggest that a new system of power, concentrated and expansive, has come into existence and supplanted the old terms.

"'Empire' and 'superpower' accurately symbolize the projection of American power abroad, but for that reason they obscure the internal consequences.

"Consider how odd it would sound if we were to refer to 'the Constitution of the American Empire' or 'superpower democracy.'

"The reason they ring false is that 'constitution' signifies limitations on power, while 'democracy' commonly refers to the active involvement of citizens with their government and the responsiveness of government to its citizens.

"For their part, 'empire' and 'superpower' stand for the surpassing of limits and the dwarfing of the citizenry."
Inverted Totalitarianism The Nation

regulation falls victim to corporate bribes, so it becomes essentially useless as far as democratic control of an economy is concerned.

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

Surely, you jest...
"Capitalism Requires Government

"Americans need to realize that our economy has thrived not in spite of government, but in many ways because of government."

"Without a whole host of government rules, capitalism could not exist. Even regulations and social programs help sustain a market economy by fixing many of its serious social and economic problems.

"One of the most common and misleading economic myths in the United States is the idea that the free market is 'natural' – that it exists in some natural world, separate from government. In this view, government rules and regulations only 'interfere' with the natural beneficial workings of the market.

"Even the term 'free market' implies that it can exist free from government and that it prospers best when government leaves it alone.

"Nothing could be further from the truth.

"In reality, a market economy does not exist separate from government – it is very much a product of government rules and regulations.

"The dirty little secret of our 'free' market system is that it would simply not exist as we know it without the presence of an active government that creates and maintains the rules and conditions that allow it to operate efficiently."

Now you know.
Your beloved "free" market would not exist without government.

Government is Good - Capitalism Requires Government

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

Surely, you jest...

"Capitalism Requires Government

dear, if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away again with your liberal strawman between your legs!!

See why we have to be positive that a liberal will be slow, so very very slow?

 

[georgephillip]

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

Surely, you jest...

"Capitalism Requires Government

dear, if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away again with your liberal strawman between your legs!!

See why we have to be positive that a liberal will be slow, so very very slow?

"Law and Order. A market system cannot work well without a functioning criminal justice system. Otherwise, organized crime would easily take over large sectors of the business community. Extortion, bribery, kidnapping, and murder would become the reigning corporate model. Without the rule of law, our economy would resemble the 'mafia capitalism' that Russia has suffered from in its transition to capitalism."
Would you make the same wager in Russian?
Government is Good - Capitalism Requires Government

 

[Freemason9]

I believe that capitalism and humans cannot long coexist.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I believe that capitalism and humans cannot long coexist.

dear, when China switched to capitalism 60 million human beings continued to exist who would have slowy starved to death under liberalism.

Do you see why we are 100 certain that liberalism is based in pure and perfect ignorance. Is any other conclusion possible?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

Surely, you jest...

"Capitalism Requires Government

dear, if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away again with your liberal strawman between your legs!!

See why we have to be positive that a liberal will be slow, so very very slow?

"Law and Order. A market system cannot work well without a functioning criminal justice system. Otherwise, organized crime would easily take over large sectors of the business community. Extortion, bribery, kidnapping, and murder would become the reigning corporate model. Without the rule of law, our economy would resemble the 'mafia capitalism' that Russia has suffered from in its transition to capitalism."
Would you make the same wager in Russian?
Government is Good - Capitalism Requires Government

dear, if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away again with your liberal strawman between your legs!!

See why we have to be positive that a liberal will be slow, so very very slow? Is any other conclusion possible?

 

[georgephillip]

I believe that capitalism and humans cannot long coexist.

Capitalism can't coexist with the same number of human beings as currently exist on this planet:
"The images that unfettered capitalism leaves to the world are sinister:

1. More than 850 million hungry people in the world, almost 200 million more than those who existed 30 years ago;
2. Life expectancy of the poorest in the world continues to be the same as it was in 1977, that is 44 years of age;
3. Approximately 1.3 billion people live in conditions of poverty;
4. There are close to 230 million unemployed in the world, 40 million more than there were 30 years ago;
5. Finally, the developed countries annually waste 700 million tons of food, that is, three times more than what Sub-Saharan Africa produces in a year.

"Among the structural causes of the global crisis of capitalism are the following:

1. The accumulation and concentration of wealth in a few countries and in small privileged social groups,
2. The concentration of capital in production and marketing of resources and goods that produce the quickest and greatest profit,
3. Promotion of massive and excessive social consumption of products in the belief that to have more is to live better..."

Evo Morales Ten commandments against capitalism for life and humanity

 

[georgephillip]

with capitalism there is little power in govt so little reason to bribe govt.

Surely, you jest...

"Capitalism Requires Government

dear, if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away again with your liberal strawman between your legs!!

See why we have to be positive that a liberal will be slow, so very very slow?

"Law and Order. A market system cannot work well without a functioning criminal justice system. Otherwise, organized crime would easily take over large sectors of the business community. Extortion, bribery, kidnapping, and murder would become the reigning corporate model. Without the rule of law, our economy would resemble the 'mafia capitalism' that Russia has suffered from in its transition to capitalism."
Would you make the same wager in Russian?
Government is Good - Capitalism Requires Government

dear, if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away again with your liberal strawman between your legs!!

See why we have to be positive that a liberal will be slow, so very very slow? Is any other conclusion possible?

Do you see why capitalism will always destroy democracy?
"Democracy is not viable if it does not empower the poor, the marginalized, and does not respond first and foremost to the urgent needs of the neediest. A democracy in which a few become rich and the majority become poor is not a democracy."
Now, you do.
Evo Morales Ten commandments against capitalism for life and humanity

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Do you see why capitalism will always destroy democracy?

capitalism is 100% concerned with survival. A capitalist survives only by having the the best price and product in the entire world and thereby lifting 100's of millions out of poverty. Capitalism has no relationship with democracy let alone an ability to destroy it. Thats idiotic liberalism.