Call Apartheid in Israel by Its Name

[Coyote]

Hmmmm Ofra is an interesting case study. First, most of the information I can find about it all sources itself in a single B'tselem report and I'm having some difficulty finding other sources. I can't find any confirmation that "58% of the land is registered to Palestinians", other than that one report, and frankly, so many of these reports confuse privately owned land with "Palestinian land", I'm just not willing to take their say-so.

What makes Ofra especially interesting in that the Jewish residents claim they purchased the land fair and square from Palestinians, even paying far more than the land was worth, but failed to register their purchase for fear of Palestinian retribution on the sellers for selling to Jews. If true, what a nice scam -- "sell" the land, but if it fails to get registered -- its still yours.

On the other hand, the Palestinians appear to be claiming that they didn't sell the land at all, and that the Israelis took it, but they failed to register a complaint against it and allowed the Israelis to have the land for many years, giving the Israelis the belief that they now had legal title to it.

Its a mess.

But I think that is the lesson here. These are not black-and-white "you stole my land" issues. They are complex. A Palestinian village has some land which is designated as Area B in Oslo. But they think that more of the land around their village (Area C) "belongs" to their village, even though the land was never registered to private individuals. Or the land was actually purchased by their family in the past, but they failed to register it in order to avoid paying taxes. So its technically not theirs. Or they actually never purchased it, but assumed it to be part of the village and thus "their" land.

And then a Palestinian decides to sell his land, actually privately owned and registered, to an Israeli, but is actually fearful of his life if it is discovered. So he asks that the land not be registered, to which the Israeli agrees. Or, possibly, he is not really fearful of his life, but realizes that if the Israeli doesn't register the land purchase -- the land is still technically his. Or, possibly, Israelis just start using and building on land, claiming they purchased it when they did not.

Its a mess.

And I think we would do well to remember that there are all sorts of actors here: Jewish Israeli migrants and returnees; Arab Israelis; Palestinian citizens; governments; courts and they all have different goals and different end games.

My point being, trying to reduce it down to "Israel is bad", "Israel is apartheid" or "Israel is discriminatory" is a fool's game. Its complicated.

Yes, I agree, it is complicated, though I tend to think IF they bought it fair and square, as they claim, there would be no ongoing court case, it would be settled.

There are other sources mention though, that seem pretty disturbing, though I don't know if they apply to this specific case. One is a reference to the "Sasson Report". Sasson Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Sasson Report is an official Israeli government report published on 8 March 2005 that concluded that Israeli state bodies had been discreetly diverting millions of shekels to build West Bank settlements and outposts that were illegal under Israeli law. The report was commissioned by the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, and was headed by the former head of the State Prosecution Criminal Department Talia Sasson. Talia Sasson would later run for the Israeli elections as part of the left wing party Meretz.

In addition, according to B'tselem, the HCJ has ordered the homes on private land demolished. It would seem that in the courts the issue is resolved but the state is unwilling to carry out the orders. The state appears to have acknowledged Ofra was built on private Palestinian land.

Israel’s High Court orders state to carry out demolition orders issued for nine structures in the settlement of Ofra, despite state objection. Court: Denying the petition would have sanctioned severe harm to Palestinian rights and rule of law, which is unacceptable

In a dramatic decision, Israel’s High Court of Justice (former President A. Grunis, President M. Naor, and Justice I. Amit) ruled Sunday that the state must carry out demolition orders issued for nine illegal structures built on privately-owned Palestinian land in the West Bank settlement of Ofra. The Court accepted the petition filed by Palestinian residents of nearby villages and Israeli human rights organizations Yesh Din and B’Tselem to enforce the law regarding illegal construction in the area. In light of the state’s claim that the nine structures essentially share the status of many other houses in Ofra, the ruling has far-reaching implications for the issue of illegal construction on privately-owned Palestinian land...

..Unlike in other cases concerning illegal Israeli construction on Palestinian land in the West Bank, the state claimed in this petition that due to “special circumstances”, the usual priorities for enforcement of planning and building laws did not apply in this case. The “special circumstances”, the state explained, were that most structures in Ofra had been unlawfully erected on privately-owned Palestinian land, i.e. their status was almost identical to that of the nine structures under examination. The state’s problematic argument was that as almost the entire settlement of Ofra had been built on privately-owned Palestinian land, there was no justification to demolish those particular nine structures – although they were new and the petition was filed before they were completed. Therefore, the state argued, the fate of the nine structures would be determined along with the rest of the settlement, through negotiations on a permanent-status agreement with the Palestinians. State representatives referred to Ofra throughout the court sessions as “the largest illegal outpost in the West Bank”.​

For each person claiming Israel is discrimminating, you have someone pointing to dishonest Palestinians? Which is truth and what is assumed?

 

[Coyote]

You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.

‘The crime of apartheid’ means inhumane acts of a character similar to
those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an
institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one
racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the
intention of maintaining that regime;

https://www.icc-cpi.int/nr/rdonlyres/ea9aeff7-5752-4f84-be94-0a655eb30e16/0/rome_statute_english.pdf​

Many acts of Israel fit that description.

Apartheid was a distinct system of separation and inequality hardwired into law: Apartheid - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

I see with Israel a system closer to what existed between white Americans and Native Americans.

So not apartheid as your fellow team Palestine members claim. While the arab muslims have the right to stand for election and are promoted to positions or authority apartheid is not in evidence. What happens outside of Israel is not apartheid either as it only applies to nations.

Again, I never said Israel was apartheid.

 

[Coyote]

Here are some more "free permits"....actually, it's kind of a two-fer. Not only do they get retroactive legalization but they get to build on private Palestinian land. Inequities in government policies towards Palestinian landowners and Jewish landowners?

Ofra

Israel Moves to Retroactively Okay Settlement Homes Built on Palestinian Land
Israel announced on Thursday the initiation of a municipal plan that would retroactively legitimize structures in one of the largest West Bank settlements, and which were built on private Palestinian land.

Over 58% of Ofra's structures are built on private Palestinian land, a fact which has delayed potential construction plans.

However, in an attempt to allow further construction in Ofra, the state told the High Court of Justice on Thursday that it was drafting a jurisdiction plan for Ofra, the legal significance of which would be the retroactive approval of past construction plans, even on private Palestinian land.

Ofra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Status under Israeli law
The Sasson Report in 2003 introduced criteria for determining the legality of a given settlement under Israeli law. In June 2007, Haaretz reported that 179 of the 600 buildings in Ofra are considered illegal by the Israeli administration.[28]

Ofra is built on private Palestinian land.[7] In a December 2008 report, B'Tselem has argued that while all Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law, Ofra is illegal even under Israeli law stating that it violates 3 of the 4 established criteria for legality in the Sasson report. According to the report, while Ofra was authorized in 1979, it was never defined a jurisdictional area, never had an outline plan approved and no lawful building permits were issued. The report added that at least 58 percent of the settlement's built-up area is registered in the Land Registry Office under the names of Palestinians. Ofra residents claim the land was purchased legally from the Palestinians.[29][5] They contended that the land was purchased legally but suggested that showing documents of the purchases would lead to Palestinian retribution attacks. Land deals are usually kept secret to protect Palestinian sellers. [30] The Yesha Council accused B'Tselem of trying to remove Jews from their land saying the group "will spare no means - even lies" in order to harm the settlements.[29]

Homes were built on land bought with forged documents. Hundreds of structures in Ofra came under a demolition order from the Civil Administration after the villagers of Ein Yabrud laid a petition at the Israeli High Court of Justice over construction on their private land.[31]

A secret database, published by Haaretz in 2009, confirmed that Ofra was largely built on private Palestinian lands, without approval.[32] In September 2011, the Israeli government set up plans to legitimise the settlement retroactively.[33]

Ofra's settlement fence was built without permits over wide swathes of land belonging to the Palestinian villages of Deir Dibwan and Silwad. The IDF has confirmed that permits were lacking, and undertook to rebuild the fence closer to Ofra within 2012. Top quality soil from this agricultural land is systematically harvested, according to Haaretz 'stolen', for settlement use.[34] One house near the settlement, owned by the Palestinian Shehadeh family, who won a Jerusalem district court judgement in their favour, is still used as a yeshiva for Ofra's married men, and was expropriated by the IDF in favour of the settlers 10 days after the verdict was passed.[35] In the wake of a suit filed in 2008, on 9 February 2015, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the demolition of 9 Ofra homes as standing on land with Palestinian title. The government was given2 years to demolish the housing,[36]

You keep bringing up " private Palestinian land ", would this happen to be Jewish owned land stolen in 1949 by the Palestinians with the help of Jordan. And then saw Jordan enact laws to "legally" steal the land title from the Jews ?

As far as Jewish land that was stolen by the Palestinians - it should be returned to it's legal owners. However, that has largely been done. Israeli laws allow Jews to reclaim lost property while making it almost impossible for Palestinians to do so. I quoted a source to that in a prior post.