Debate Now CALIFORNIA: San Francisco board open to reparations with $5M payouts

[IM2]

How is the cost in lives and treasure of the Civil War counted into these figures?

They aren't. Blacks fought in the Civil War and then got Jim Crow put on them by whites.

 

[IM2]

That's one of the things I'm wondering is a consideration, yes.

I often wonder if the ends of the spectrum fully examine the ramifications of their ideas.

Do you fully recognize the foolishness from which you speak?

What are the ramifications of a system that excluded blacks for all but the last 59 years which is why whites have 15 times the wealth of blacks, 13 times the wealth of Hispanics, and if you take out Indians, at least 15 times that of Asians, and more than 20 times more than Native Americans?

How does this get solved Mr, "I can't take a position but I can decide that I am holier than thou because I stand for nothing?" Do we pretend this is not the case, play colorblind and all this will just disappear?

The ramifications should be the end of economic inequality. But if whites get stupid and start violence, then we'll just have to go to the government again. That's the ramifications of this. If whites want this to end, they do nothing and let us build. This ain't the 1860's. Blacks will be armed and any white racist or groups of white racists who want to misbehave will be dealt with.

 

[IM2]

Let's look at what California actually found instead of repeating the same stale comments.

From colonial times forward, governments at all levels adopted and enshrined white supremacy beliefs and passed laws in order to maintain slavery, a system of dehumanization and exploitation that stole the life, labor, liberty, and intellect of people of African descent. This system was maintained by, and financially benefited, the entire United States of America and its territories.

• This system of white supremacy is a persistent badge of slavery that continues to be embedded today in numerous American and Californian legal, economic, and social and political systems. Throughout American history and across the entire country, laws and policies, violence and terror have upheld white supremacy. All over the country, but particularly in the South during the era of legal segregation, federal state and local governments directly engaged in, supported, or failed to protect African Americans from the violence and terror aiming to subjugate African Americans.

• Government actions and derelictions of duty have caused compounding physical and psychological injury for generations. In California, racial violence against African Americans began during slavery, continued through the 1920s, as groups like the Ku Klux Klan permeated local governments and police departments, and peaked after World War II, as African Americans attempted to move into white neighborhoods.

• After the Civil War, African Americans briefly won political power during Reconstruction. Southern states responded by systematically stripping African Americans of their power to vote. Racist lawmakers elected from southern states blocked hundreds of federal civil rights laws and edited other important legislation to exclude or discriminate against African Americans. These coordinated efforts at the federal level harmed Black Californians, particularly when coupled with discrimination at the state and local levels.

• Government actors, working with private individuals, actively segregated America into Black and white neighborhoods. In California, federal, state, and local governments created segregation through discriminatory federal housing policies, zoning ordinances, decisions on where to build schools, and discriminatory federal mortgage policies known as redlining. Funded by the federal government, the California state and local government also destroyed Black homes and communities through park and highway construction, urban renewal and by other means.

Due to residential segregation and compared to white Americans, African Americans are more likely to live in worse quality housing and in neighborhoods that are polluted, with inadequate infrastructure. Black Californians face similar harms.

• Government financial assistance programs and policies have historically excluded African Americans from receiving benefits.

• The current child welfare system in the country and in California, operates on harmful and untrue racial stereotypes of African Americans. This has resulted in extremely high rates of removal of Black children from their families, even though Black parents do not generally mistreat their children at higher rates than white parents. Black children thus disproportionately suffer the loss of their families and the additional harms associated with being in the child welfare system.

• Federal and state governments, including California, failed to protect Black artists, culture-makers, and media-makers from discrimination and simultaneously promoted discriminatory narratives. State governments memorialized the Confederacy as just and heroic through monument building, while suppressing the nation’s history of racism and slavery.

Federal, state, and local government actions, including in California, have directly segregated and discriminated against African Americans at work. Federal and state policies like affirmative action produced mixed results and were short lived. African Americans continue to face employment discrimination today in the country and in California.

• American government at all levels, including in California, has historically criminalized African Americans for the purposes of social control, and to maintain an economy based on exploited Black labor. This criminalization is an enduring badge of slavery and has contributed to the over-policing of Black neighborhoods, the school to prison pipeline, the mass incarceration of African Americans, a refusal to accept African Americans as victims, and other inequities in nearly every corner of the American and California legal systems. As a result, the American and California criminal justice system physically harms, imprisons, and kills African Americans more than other racial groups relative to their percentage of the population.

Federal, state, and local government actions, including in California, have directly segregated and discriminated against African Americans at work. Federal and state policies like affirmative action produced mixed results and were short lived. African Americans continue to face employment discrimination today in the country and in California.

• American government at all levels, including in California, has historically criminalized African Americans for the purposes of social control, and to maintain an economy based on exploited Black labor. This criminalization is an enduring badge of slavery and has contributed to the over-policing of Black neighborhoods, the school to prison pipeline, the mass incarceration of African Americans, a refusal to accept African Americans as victims, and other inequities in nearly every corner of the American and California legal systems. As a result, the American and California criminal justice system physically harms, imprisons, and kills African Americans more than other racial groups relative to their percentage of the population.

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/ab3121-interim-report-key-findings-2022.pdf

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Actually, the conditions the Chinese Coolie laborers suffered were barely above slavery.



1) Because the people getting the reparations weren't the ones who suffered. Those people are all dead.
2) Because we've already chucked 22 TRILLION into the ghettos since 1964, and that hasn't made things better
3) Why should I have to pay reparations? I've never owned a slave, never made anyone ride on the back of the bus, and never denied anyone a job.

In response to several of your points above, this is occurring NOW and is a part of the societal racial discrimination that was LAWFULLY carried out by whites against Black people and has been in place for centuries.

Also, I would appreciate it very much if you would stop equating poverty and/or ghetto life to Black people in general. Also please cite your source so I can see where you're obtaining your erroneous information.:

Bill would create first-in-the-nation fund to address legacy of racist covenants​

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/bill-would-create-first-in-the-nation-fund-address-legacy-racist-covenants/65MX3BZHSVCAVGYLIGJ3K52AWQ/https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/bill-would-create-first-in-the-nation-fund-address-legacy-racist-covenants/65MX3BZHSVCAVGYLIGJ3K52AWQ/

 

[IM2]

JoeB,

Barely above slavery is not slavery. And for the record, if Chinese Americans demanded reparations, I would support them. Second, 22 trillion dollars have not gone to the ghettos and all blacks don't live in cities. I am one of them.

If 22 trillion has been spent on welfare you best start understanding that most of it went to poor whites not only in cities but in rural areas.

Last, stop acting like you will be paying reparations. The case is against the government and the government has paid others for stuff you didn't do. I'm tired of whites using this stupid argument.

 

[IM2]

Citygroup did a study focusing on U.S. GDP from 2000 until 2020. The study revealed huge losses in GDP due to continuing discrimination against blacks in business revenue, education, housing credit, and income. The study determined that since the year 2000, continuing discriminatory practices in the four areas mentioned in the prior sentence resulted in a loss of 16 trillion dollars.

“Closing the Black racial wage gap 20 years ago might have provided an additional $2.7 trillion in income available for consumption and investment.

Improving access to housing credit might have added an additional 770,000 Black homeowners over the last 20 years, with combined sales and expenditures adding another $218 billion to GDP over that time.

Facilitating increased access to higher education (college, graduate, and vocational schools) for Black students might have bolstered lifetime incomes that in aggregate sums to $90 to $113 billion.

Providing fair and equitable lending to Black entrepreneurs might have resulted in the creation of an additional $13 trillion in business revenue over the last 20 years. This could have been used for investments in labor, technology, capital equipment, and structures and 6.1 million jobs might have been created per year.”

Closing the Racial Inequality Gaps - CitiGPS

Longstanding problem of discrimination against minority groups in the U.S., especially against Black people, has produced inequality and real economic costs.

www.citivelocity.com

So blacks are owed 16 trillion dollars from what has happened to us in this century. So it's just time to stop repeating nonsense used for excuses.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Another example of the devastating impact of Jim Crow on Black lives, but this time in the North:

​

Riots erupt in Boston in opposition to the city’s plan to integrate schools by busing, 1976. Stanleyformanphotos.com Pulitzer Prize 1977 “The Soiling of Old Glory”​

​

You know about the long fight against segregation in the South. But civil rights struggles in the rest of the nation have often been overlooked.​

MARCH 9, 2020​

By Joe Bubar​

​

On February 3, 1964, nearly half a million students—most of them African American and Puerto Rican—joined together to protest segregation in local education. Staying out of class for the day, they marched in front of their schools shouting “Jim Crow must go,” held signs with slogans such as “Integration Means Better Education,” and sang “We Shall Overcome.”​

That demonstration, 56 years ago, turned out to be the largest civil rights protest of the decade. But it didn’t take place in the South, where you might have expected. It happened in New York City, where public education remained heavily segregated 10 years after the Supreme Court had ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that separate schools for black children and white children were unconstitutional.​

The history of the civil rights movement usually focuses on the South. You know about the sit-ins, boycotts, and marches in places like Greensboro, North Carolina, and Birmingham, Alabama, that led to the passage of legislation such as the Civil Rights Act in 1964, which outlawed segregation in public spaces. But state-sponsored segregation also existed in the North, and thousands of people joined in civil rights movements outside the South, from New York City to Boston to Detroit.​

So why haven’t you heard as much about them?​

We often portray racism in the U.S. “as a regional problem, not a national problem,” says Jeanne Theoharis, author of a book on the civil rights movement called A More Beautiful and Terrible History. “The tendency when talking about segregation in the North is to say that it’s more episodic, and more personal, and not state-sponsored—except that we know that’s not the case.”​

​

1619​

This article is part of Upfront’s ongoing series about the African American experience, inspired by The New York Times’ 1619 Project.​

​

Library of Congress
A sign in Detroit calling for the continuation of segregated housing, 1942

‘Separate but Equal’​

When you think of Jim Crow laws, which segregated blacks and whites beginning in the late 19th century, you probably imagine separate train cars, bathrooms, and water fountains in the South. But Jim Crow cars segregating blacks and whites actually existed much earlier in the North—for instance, along the Eastern Rail Road, which ran from Boston to Salem, Massachusetts, beginning in 1838, more than 20 years before the Civil War (1861-65).

Article continued here: The Jim Crow North

 

[JoeB131]

Incorrect. I was born during Jim Crow and my parents were affected by it. My father was denied the GI bill after he came home from WW2 and that affected the opportunities he had which inevitably affected his ability to earn a decent income or get the same benefits returning white soldiers got. .

Lots of guys didn't get GI Bill benefits after WWII. My dad didn't, either. In fact, only 49% of WWII vets used the GI Bill. (Compared to 72% of Vietnam Vets, who never stopped whining about what a bad deal they got.)

Do you know what My Dad DID do? He joined a union, he worked for 30 years, he got his parents out of that house in Englewood after that neighborhood turned to shit. He eventually died of lung cancer because his work involved exposure to asbestos.

I'll be the first one to admit that I've benefited from White Privilege... but man, that privilege had a cost.

No. Whites have benefitted most from AA, so nothing has been tilted. AA didn't tilt anything to begin with. AA was an attempt to end a tilted system. Whites like you are so ignorant that you can't comprehend how much things have been titlted for whites.

Okay, fair enough. The primary beneficiaries of AA were indeed white women. Asians also made out like bandits. But here's the thing. White women don't need it anymore. Asians don't need it. Hispanics probably don't need it once they've been here a generation or two and assimilate.

So the better question isn't "Why was affirmative Action needed?" the better questions is "Why do blacks STILL need affirmative action when white women and Asians don't?"

The problem with debating people like you is that you make comments based on beliefs that are fact free. Reservations are slums also. But the thing I will say is that if you really want to debate this, drop the use of the same silly lines and go study reparations in America so you understand that blacks are not the only ones to ever ask for reparations and if you want to continue arguing the same stupid argument you will find that reparations have been paid to descendants of the people who experienced the original wrong

I think when he said "Indians" he meant Hindus, not Native Americans. Yes, the Reservations are slums, by design. And they've seen a HUGE influx of money from legalized gambling and they are STILL slums. Up near my summer place in Northern Wisconsin, they've had a perenial fight between the Chippewa, who found a loophole in the treaty that allows them to spearfish Walleye during mating season, and they take their limit despite damage to the ecosystem and the damage it does to tourism. They don't even eat the Walleye.

If African Americans and Native Americans have a problem, it's that they suffer from what Heinlein called "The Socialist Disease in it's worst form, the belief that the world owes you a living."

The amount starts at an estimated 15 trillion.

Oh. Good. We've dumped 22 Trillion into the ghettos since the Great Society with very little result, but then we have that covered.

 

[JoeB131]

They aren't. Blacks fought in the Civil War and then got Jim Crow put on them by whites.

Yes, they did. What you leave out is the short period when Freedmen, Scallywags and Carpetbaggers really stuck it to White Southerners during Reconstruction, and Jim Crow was the reaction to it. Kind of how the punitive post-World War 1 measures against Germany gave the world Hitler.

Do you fully recognize the foolishness from which you speak?

What are the ramifications of a system that excluded blacks for all but the last 59 years which is why whites have 15 times the wealth of blacks, 13 times the wealth of Hispanics, and if you take out Indians, at least 15 times that of Asians, and more than 20 times more than Native Americans?

Um, okay. Let's look at that. Darned if I can see it. The wealth I have is because I've worked since I was 16, including service in the US Army which didn't pay all that well. (Discounting the family property my parents left me, which I co-own with five other people, and is a $3200 a year liability and can never sell.)

True, whites have 15 times the wealth of other minorities, but only by virtue that most of the 1% who own 43% of the wealth are white. Bill Gates having more money that God doesn't do me a darned bit of good because we share a skin tone.

How does this get solved Mr, "I can't take a position but I can decide that I am holier than thou because I stand for nothing?" Do we pretend this is not the case, play colorblind and all this will just disappear?

Wow... that is like the perfect burn for Mac... I may steal that.

The ramifications should be the end of economic inequality. But if whites get stupid and start violence, then we'll just have to go to the government again. That's the ramifications of this. If whites want this to end, they do nothing and let us build. This ain't the 1860's. Blacks will be armed and any white racist or groups of white racists who want to misbehave will be dealt with.

Um, yeah, because threatening white people with violence, that's going to really do well for you.

Hey, you know what's happening in Chicago right now? We threw out Mayor Beetlejuice and we are probably going to elect the FOP's candidate. Because even though people were initially very sympathetic to BLM and reform, three years of rising crime rates have been quite enough. Good job!

 

[JoeB131]

JoeB,

Barely above slavery is not slavery. And for the record, if Chinese Americans demanded reparations, I would support them. Second, 22 trillion dollars have not gone to the ghettos and all blacks don't live in cities. I am one of them.

If 22 trillion has been spent on welfare you best start understanding that most of it went to poor whites not only in cities but in rural areas.

Some of it has. Some of it hasn't.

Chinese Americans don't demand reparations for what happened to other Chinese 100 years ago. Their descendants - the few there are - learned English, worked hard, put their kids through school. The poor Asians you keep whining about are the ones who are fresh off the boat. (Or the plane, no one takes boats anymore.)

THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING.

Sure, Grandpa Ludwig got called a Kraut and a Hun when he got off the boat (and he came over when they were still using boats), and it was so bad he considered going back to Germany. but you know what he did do? He worked hard, he learned English, and he worked to make it better for his children. And my dad worked hard all his life to make things better for his kids, and my siblings worked hard to make things better for their kids. (I never really wanted kids for a host of reasons.)

Last, stop acting like you will be paying reparations. The case is against the government and the government has paid others for stuff you didn't do. I'm tired of whites using this stupid argument.

Uh, dummy, where do you think "the government" gets money from? They get it through taxes, except we can't afford all the government spending we do now, so we've borrowed ourselves into 30 Trillion in debt. If the government is going to get money for "reparations", they are going to have to tax people, and you know the rich are masters of tax avoidance.

Government can't afford what it is doing now.

So to clarify.

Do we need to make things fairer for black people? Absolutely.
Police reform. 100% behind you. Probably not going to happen now because you scared the hell out of people.

But sticking a crowbar in my wallet to collect money for reparations? When that underground place becomes a public ice skating rink.

 

[JoeB131]

In response to several of your points above, this is occurring NOW and is a part of the societal racial discrimination that was LAWFULLY carried out by whites against Black people and has been in place for centuries.

Also, I would appreciate it very much if you would stop equating poverty and/or ghetto life to Black people in general. Also please cite your source so I can see where you're obtaining your erroneous information.:

White people in general also don't live in trailer parks, but we don't glorify the trailer park lifestyle, we mock it.

As opposed to what I see on shows like "Growing up hip hop" ,where they have all this money, but still act kind of awful.

But as far as sources, here you go.

The War on Poverty After 50 Years

This week, the U.S. Census Bureau is scheduled to release its annual poverty report. The report will be notable because this year marks the 50th anniversary of the launch of President Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty. In his January 1964 State of the Union address, Johnson proclaimed, “This...

www.heritage.org

That was only counting up to 2014. I'm sure that money has grown since then.

I think you can argue that the War on Poverty actually made poverty worse. You don't appreciate it if you didn't earn it.

Bill would create first-in-the-nation fund to address legacy of racist covenants

Seriously, she's whining because she had to come up with a down payment?

I'll give you a great example. Until last year, I lived in a Condo complex. When it was majority owner-occupied, it was actually a pretty nice place to live.

Then the Housing Crash happened. And a lot of people's houses went into foreclosure and got picked up by investors who slapped a coat of paint on them and started renting to Section 8 people. And you could tell which units were occuppied by section 8 people without even seeing the residents. Garbage bags in the halls because they were too lazy to walk out to the dumpsters, Junk piled on their patios/balconies. And for us owners who decided to stick it out, we were kind of stuck, because when it went over 50% renters, no banks would finance a sale for less than 50% down.

Thankfully, a company came in and offered us all a buyout. But the people who were renting out to the lowlifes sued to stop it and it dragged out in court for a year.

So you know what I did when I got my current place? I made sure it had an "Owner occupancy" rule.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

San Francisco board open to reparations with $5M payouts" are as follows:

Reparations are perfectly appropriate and warranted the consequence of enslavement alone.

In addition to being enslaved, black Americans were subject to ongoing government sanctioned disadvantage and discrimination via Jim Crow, black codes, segregation, and false imprisonment well into the second half of the 20th Century.

Moreover, this case concerns the city of San Francisco only – not a national policy, where local jurisdictions are at liberty to consider reparations reflecting the will of the people of that community.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

They aren't. Blacks fought in the Civil War and then got Jim Crow put on them by whites.

Jim Crow, black codes, segregation….

At the end of Reconstruction, it became a common practice to falsely arrest, try, and convict innocent black men who were then sentenced to work as free labor on farms and plantations; by the end of the 19th Century, we see the establishment of de facto slavery throughout the South.

The Angola State Penitentiary in Louisiana is among the more infamous manifestations of this practice.

 

[there4eyeM]

All we can possibly say about all this is that, if we accept the reasoning for giving money to groups that suffered institutional discrimination, the first in line is women.

 

[rightwinger]

Reparations do nothing to repair Social Injustice

Why do todays blacks deserve reparations if their children and grandchildren do not?


I have no problem with paying reparations to those who have identifiable losses like Jews who had personal wealth confiscated or residents of Tulsa who had personal property confiscated

 

[IM2]

All we can possibly say about all this is that, if we accept the reasoning for giving money to groups that suffered institutional discrimination, the first in line is women.

No, we can't say that. White Women owned slaves and participated in Jim Crow. White womens lies got black men killed or wrongly imprisoned. Many white women married their oppressors and lived on their earnings. Furthermore, white women are given reparations by law. It's called alimony. Racst white women exist today and post in this forum. Now stop pretending that blacks are the only ones who have ever asked for reparations.

 

[IM2]

Reparations do nothing to repair Social Injustice

Why do todays blacks deserve reparations if their children and grandchildren do not?


I have no problem with paying reparations to those who have identifiable losses like Jews who had personal wealth confiscated or residents of Tulsa who had personal property confiscated

Again, the precedent has been set. And identifiable losses are shown by the racial wealth gap..

Reparations do everything to repair economic injustice and economic injustice has remained a problem..

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Reparations do nothing to repair Social Injustice

Why do todays blacks deserve reparations if their children and grandchildren do not?


I have no problem with paying reparations to those who have identifiable losses like Jews who had personal wealth confiscated or residents of Tulsa who had personal property confiscated

I don't know if you know this or not but the rioters robbed the black banks and although I believe this happened before the FDIC guarantees, the insurance company refused to pay a single claim of the Black business owners.

So the racist white mob stole the account holders money, the account holders were not reimbursed for their losses by the banks, the Black property owners who paid premiums to insure against losses had their claims denied, every single one of them. And to add further insult to injury, not a single white person was every held accountable for their crimes of those nights , yet the Black victims were the only parties charged with crimes, had curfews imposed upon them and eventually were restricted to internment camps:

The Aftermath​

The Internment
By the end of the day, the internment camps held 6,000 African American residents. The next day, authorities moved them to the fairgrounds. The National Guard forced these prisoners, both men and women, to labor. The mayor threatened to arrest anyone refusing work for vagrancy. Authorities required them to clean up the destruction caused by the white rioters. The length of stay varied for most of those imprisoned. Release depended on white employers vouching for their African American workers. After that the city issued passes, called green cards, for them to carry to show their employment. By the middle of June, the camps closed.​

The Aftermath | Oklahoma Historical Society​

​

All but a handful of the Black victims of that event have since passed away and I can't help but feel that the inaction taken by law enforcement who had jurisdiction over the area was intentional in the hope that if they could only drag this out long enough that eventually anyone who could ledge a complaint or file a claim against any of the guilty parties, including the law enforcement/government agencies, would eventually all be dead, therefore any damages won or reparations should go to their descendants because this was truly a horrific and heinous act perpetrator against the most affluent Black community in the United States for no reason other than financial and social envy.

The Tulsa Race Riot Massacre was not the only act of violence of this nature against a Black community but it certainly is one of the most well known and damaging one therefore in that respect it is not unique.

Reparations in this instances and those like it would be proper.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Reparations do nothing to repair Social Injustice

Why do todays blacks deserve reparations if their children and grandchildren do not?


I have no problem with paying reparations to those who have identifiable losses like Jews who had personal wealth confiscated or residents of Tulsa who had personal property confiscated

Did the reparations paid to Japanese Americans do anything to repair Social Injustice? Why or why not?

 

[JoeB131]

No, we can't say that. White Women owned slaves and participated in Jim Crow. White womens lies got black men killed or wrongly imprisoned. Many white women married their oppressors and lived on their earnings. Furthermore, white women are given reparations by law. It's called alimony. Racst white women exist today and post in this forum. Now stop pretending that blacks are the only ones who have ever asked for reparations.

Um. nobody ever got alimony because their grandmother's ex-husband was an awful person.

Again, the precedent has been set. And identifiable losses are shown by the racial wealth gap..

The precedent has been set with Japanese Americans, and it was limited to an apology and a token amount of money ONLY for those who were directly effected.

Reparations do everything to repair economic injustice and economic injustice has remained a problem..

Except we've been dumping tons of money into the slums since the 1960's, for all the good it's done.