Brazil,80% of country on Ethanol flex fuel vehicles,with GM engines why not America?

[Paulie]

Hey, don't blame us. WE didn't vote for the 04 posterboy for "conservative" politics.


free market capitalists are like dreamers spitting in the wind and assuming that their salivation will fly off like superman as long as no hands touch it.

If it's any consolation to you, I never voted for Bush. In hindsight however, If I knew in 2000 what I know now, I probably would have voted for him, given that his platform was largely resemblant of Ron Paul's. But we all know how that ended up. In 2004, I was already done with the man. I didn't vote in 2004 or 2000. In 2000, I didn't give two shits about politics. I was in the military then, but politics were the last thing on my mind. In 2004, obviously no conservatives were running, but I think I'd have taken Dean over Bush.

I would think you might have voted for Bush in 2000 as well, considering you were contemplating Paul during the primaries.

 

[Chris]

Let's blame the market for Bush being a fucking moron, YET AGAIN.

Bush enticed the free market to act irrationally. Without the tax loophole, how many SUV's would have still been sold? No one can say for sure, but obviously it would be a lot less, or else Bush wouldn't have given the Big 3 that handjob, right?

Where did I say anything about Bush?

I said no president since Carter has called for fuel conservation.

 

[Paulie]

Where did I say anything about Bush?

I said no president since Carter has called for fuel conservation.

I didn't say you did. You put the market on the spot, and advocated regulating what people should drive. I responded by saying that if Bush hadn't prayed on consumer ignorance, and enticed the market with a tax cut for SUV's, the Big 3 probably would have sold a lot less of them.

But the free market is now correcting itself, in the face of high gas prices. In other words, we didn't need the government to tell us what we could or couldn't drive, we needed to learn from our mistakes and make more rational decisions based on the mistakes. It shouldn't be a sin to merely own an SUV. I'm just saying don't blame the market for people being in trouble now, when obviously the market is trying to correct itself by moving back towards fuel efficiency.

In my younger days, I remember staring at the Hum-2, jaw dropped, wishing I could own one. I have grown up since then, and wouldn't own one now if gas was FREE.

 

[dilloduck]

Where did I say anything about Bush?

I said no president since Carter has called for fuel conservation.

Maybe because they thought Americans were smart enough to figure it out for themselves ?

 

[Shogun]

If it's any consolation to you, I never voted for Bush. In hindsight however, If I knew in 2000 what I know now, I probably would have voted for him, given that his platform was largely resemblant of Ron Paul's. But we all know how that ended up. In 2004, I was already done with the man. I didn't vote in 2004 or 2000. In 2000, I didn't give two shits about politics. I was in the military then, but politics were the last thing on my mind. In 2004, obviously no conservatives were running, but I think I'd have taken Dean over Bush.

I would think you might have voted for Bush in 2000 as well, considering you were contemplating Paul during the primaries.

Ron Paul was interesting due to his take on initiating foreign wars, not because of his energy policies. I think it's a pretty far stretch to compare the two based on energy polices despite everything else. I wasn't so much the Paul fan boy that I gobbled up his entire platform without critical thought. Free markets still don't solve anything. Look at Japan.

 

[Paulie]

All of this SUV bullshit would be a moot point anyway, had our monetary policy not caused the inevitable inflation, which has led to a lot of the higher prices we're seeing in commodities. Not to mention our fiscal responsibility being out the fucking window over the last 10-15 years ESPECIALLY.

If oil was where it should be, I seriously doubt SUV's would be getting scapegoated.

 

[Shogun]

I didn't say you did. You put the market on the spot, and advocated regulating what people should drive. I responded by saying that if Bush hadn't prayed on consumer ignorance, and enticed the market with a tax cut for SUV's, the Big 3 probably would have sold a lot less of them.

But the free market is now correcting itself, in the face of high gas prices. In other words, we didn't need the government to tell us what we could or couldn't drive, we needed to learn from our mistakes and make more rational decisions based on the mistakes. It shouldn't be a sin to merely own an SUV. I'm just saying don't blame the market for people being in trouble now, when obviously the market is trying to correct itself by moving back towards fuel efficiency.

In my younger days, I remember staring at the Hum-2, jaw dropped, wishing I could own one. I have grown up since then, and wouldn't own one now if gas was FREE.

You really can't say "probably" would have sold less of them though. If capitalist CEOs are looking at which provides a greater profit margin between compact cars and SUVs and they activley dismiss making economic cars for the sake of "putting America back to work making SUVs" as we saw with the reason behind the SUV incentive it's a logical fallacy to assume that some natural occurance in the market will prepare the economy for an energy crisis.

This is why I blame both the "conservatives" in power, those who cote for him AND the chicken necked capitalists who only care about profit margin.

and, you can make the "correcting" arguement when we start seeing economic cars being offered in any real competitivness. As it is, TALKING about it doesn't equate GM putting a compact car factory where they are now pumping out gas guzzlers. NOW it's all about shrinking labor cost in order to equalize the stunted GM decisions of the last decade. Like I said, if you believe in a free market then lets see capitalists have the balls to watch GM go out of business for making shitty decisions that were promoted by "conservatives".

And I still flip off hummer owners while driving.

 

[AllieBaba]

People who think they have the right to determine what others drive make me nauseous.

 

[Shogun]

All of this SUV bullshit would be a moot point anyway, had our monetary policy not caused the inevitable inflation, which has led to a lot of the higher prices we're seeing in commodities. Not to mention our fiscal responsibility being out the fucking window over the last 10-15 years ESPECIALLY.

If oil was where it should be, I seriously doubt SUV's would be getting scapegoated.

what is the "should be" in a "free market", dude?

But it's not moot. It's one example of how the "free market" is an election year pipedream blown up the ass of conservatives for the sake of a vote... and why stories about pimped out golf carts give me a raging stiffy. The "free market" doesn't facilitate emerging new options when the excuse of unemplyed SUV makers is on the tip of a CEO tongue. Neither the free market or capitalism is a panacea for anything.

 

[Shogun]

People who think they have the right to determine what others drive make me nauseous.

you dont own the road nor the recources it takes to fuel an SUV. Faux conservatives whose political mantras fizzle by their presidential choices third year makes me nauseous.

 

[Paulie]

You really can't say "probably" would have sold less of them though. If capitalist CEOs are looking at which provides a greater profit margin between compact cars and SUVs and they activley dismiss making economic cars for the sake of "putting America back to work making SUVs" as we saw with the reason behind the SUV incentive it's a logical fallacy to assume that some natural occurance in the market will prepare the economy for an energy crisis.

This is why I blame both the "conservatives" in power, those who cote for him AND the chicken necked capitalists who only care about profit margin.

and, you can make the "correcting" arguement when we start seeing economic cars being offered in any real competitivness. As it is, TALKING about it doesn't equate GM putting a compact car factory where they are now pumping out gas guzzlers. NOW it's all about shrinking labor cost in order to equalize the stunted GM decisions of the last decade. Like I said, if you believe in a free market then lets see capitalists have the balls to watch GM go out of business for making shitty decisions that were promoted by "conservatives".

And I still flip off hummer owners while driving.

Well then I would have to say I'm not one of those chicken necked capitalists, because I believe GM should pay whatever price comes about from their obvious ignorance, including failure. If you know me at all around here, you know I'm the cheerleader for letting a failing business fail, no matter WHAT the perceived consequences might be.

There's no real way to cleanse the market of stupidity than to let the stupidity play itself out so that very stupidity never happens again.

Bailing out GM would only REWARD that stupidity. But don't be against a bail-out because you have a specific grievance against a specific company. Be against it because it's the right thing to do, regardless of your feelings.

 

[Paulie]

what is the "should be" in a "free market", dude?

But it's not moot. It's one example of how the "free market" is an election year pipedream blown up the ass of conservatives for the sake of a vote... and why stories about pimped out golf carts give me a raging stiffy. The "free market" doesn't facilitate emerging new options when the excuse of unemplyed SUV makers is on the tip of a CEO tongue. Neither the free market or capitalism is a panacea for anything.

Absent our disasterous monetary policy, and yes, even some speculation, I believe the free market price of oil would be somewhere more in the neighborhood of the $60-70 range.

I don't give corporate America a free pass, either. I am well aware that corporate board rooms across America are full of anything BUT free market capitalists, whether it appears so or not. A REAL free market capitalist would DESIRE to pursue alternatives to oil. Most big time board room executives don't care about free markets, or the good of the people. They care about their profit margins, and ONLY their profit margins. If there's anyone imposing a liberal will on anyone, it's THEM, by keeping their stranglehold over the market through regulation they lobby for.

There are very few corporations that act in a way I agree with.

 

[Shogun]

Im not so much a free trade capitalst, yo. I disagree with GM bailouts just as much as I do with the current round of corporate welfare in the lending sector. I wouldn't tell anyone what do drive nor borrow. However, there ARE industries that require regulation for the sake of a stable economy. Our current method of outsourcing for cheap labor and drawing illegals in order to drive down the cost of labor is a perfect example. I'm all for tax breaks for particular endeavors that benefit more than a greedy wallet.


But I apologise if I may have painted you in with the wrong crowd.

 

[Paulie]

Im not so much a free trade capitalst, yo. I disagree with GM bailouts just as much as I do with the current round of corporate welfare in the lending sector. I wouldn't tell anyone what do drive nor borrow. However, there ARE industries that require regulation for the sake of a stable economy. Our current method of outsourcing for cheap labor and drawing illegals in order to drive down the cost of labor is a perfect example. I'm all for tax breaks for particular endeavors that benefit more than a greedy wallet.

Then you and I have far more in common than you think. You'd probably be surprised to know that you probably ARE more of a free market capitalist than you really think. The problem is that you have been fed skewed details on what exactly constitutes a REAL free market capitalist. I'm not sure how much TV news you watch, but they certainly are not telling the proper story.

But I apologise if I may have painted you in with the wrong crowd.

Don't be sorry, bro. I knew eventually we'd come to the point where it was properly aired out.

 

[Shogun]

hehe.. I kinda doubt it, dude. Again, i'm ALL FOR adding an import tax to GM vehicles made in mexico. Im ALL FOR adding giant payroll taxes to businesses that outsource call center jobs to india. Im ALL FOR promoting economic cars with tax rebates. I think the gov has a responsibility to smartly keep the economy stable despite the mantra of the free market. If electric co-ops one day decided to raise the price of electricity by 50% in order to pay for rediculous top 2% salaries i'd be the first to revoke the right to use the natural resources they use to creat their product. We could not let society collapse while waiting for the market to normalize what can be paid for electricity. Same with the oil industry. I'm not in the mood to rationalize offshore drilling just because it's potentially offers more profit margin than drilling on land already leased. Hell, I agree with the breakup of Bell labs. I agreed with MS getting tacked with antitrust lawsuits in the netscape era.

i doubt that i could be called a free market kinda guy.

 

[AllieBaba]

you dont own the road nor the recources it takes to fuel an SUV. Faux conservatives whose political mantras fizzle by their presidential choices third year makes me nauseous.

I own the resource the minute I buy it. And I own the road as much as anyone who pays taxes, and more if I buy more gas.

Put that in your illegal pipe and smoke it, Mr. Righteous.

 

[Shogun]

You purchase a product not the national resource it takes to make it.

and no, you dont own more of the road according to consumption. thats just dumb. I dont care how much tax you pay per gallon you have no more claim to the PRIVILAGE of driving on the roads than anyone else.

 

[Chris]

People who think they have the right to determine what others drive make me nauseous.

Are you talking about when you get your car inspected?

 

[editec]

Free markets?

There has never been free markets in the history of any government.
Not since industrialization happened, and certainly not for the six thousand years of civilization before that, either.

Some of us talk about these issues as though we live in some fantasy land recently taken over by the boogiemen corporatists or vampire liberals who just recently screwed up what had been a perfect place, populated by free men who were not ever manipulated by bad or simply incompetent leadership.

Our (and every) nation sets policies (and always has) that reward some of its citizens, often at the expense of others of citizens -- and especially often at the expense of its future citizens.

Maybe ~ sometimes! ~ those policies worked out of the nation as a whole, in the long run, maybe not.

Usually those policies work out in the shorter run (perhaps by sheer coincidence, but I don't believe it) but only for those who had the most influence with the government which initiated those policies at that time.

All this ideological political blather some of you apparently buy into, all these simplistic explanations some of you seem want to believe, are no less faith/idealogical-based partisan nonsense than the dumbest religion any of us imagine.

Our nation did create a tax structure (and perverted the laws about what SUVs were too) such that some of us (the much more affluent, mostly) could buy SUVs and stupidly, pointlessly large trucks that very few of them really needed and take tax write-offs to offset the costs. (just as that same class can usually write off the cost of gas those beasts drank, too)

They encouraged the affluent to buy cheesy, gas-hog status symbols and call them legitimate business expenses, for christ's sakes!

If any of us think that was entirely an accident, or that the unions working at the US corporate plants making those behemoths weren't also in on that game, you're missing how complex this issue really is, and how our pols often compromise our futures for expedient political solutions today.

American industry (for multiple reasons that, frankly, I still don't understand) could not, and have never been able to compete in the smaller, more efficient car business.

These stupid laws and policies were a gift to US companies, their workers, and to the petrocracy. A gift for which we are now paying IN SPADES.

Still another example of the short-sighted, linear thinking of a society which still thinks the future is six months from now, because that is how long the stock market is willing to make bets on it.

 

[AllieBaba]

You purchase a product not the national resource it takes to make it.

and no, you dont own more of the road according to consumption. thats just dumb. I dont care how much tax you pay per gallon you have no more claim to the PRIVILAGE of driving on the roads than anyone else.

And if I want to drive an SUV I have every right to.

More of a right than the idiot bicyclists who clog the streets of our cities.