Boeing 737: I'm leaving on a jet plane, don't know if I'll be back again ...

[Denizen]

If you're flying to San Francisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair ... because it might be the last one you see.

Boeing and the FAA have not grounded 737s until the crash dive problem that killed 190 people in Indonesia is fixed.

Boeing has sent notices to airlines. Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business
Benjamin Zhang 2h

Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive.
The aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia says that since the bulletin doesn't reflect poorly on the 737 Max's design, Boeing's business is unlikely to be harmed by the news.
Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive, Bloomberg reported.
"The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors," the Chicago-based planemaker said in a statement. "Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft."
Boeing's bulletin advises pilots to use existing procedures to recover from such an abrupt dive.
"On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," the company's statement said.
Read More: The Lion Air Flight 610 crash is the worst airliner accident of 2018
But according to the veteran aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, fallout from the crash won't have much of an effect on Boeing's business.
"If this is the cause, it's nothing the system hasn't dealt with before and it's extremely discreet and manageable," Aboulafia said in an interview with Business Insider.
"This is a tragedy, but it says absolutely nothing about the design of the plane and its major subsystems."
lion air plane crash
Items recovered from the crash of Lion Air Flight 610. Eddy Purwanto/NurPhoto via Getty Images
In addition, the analyst explained that such bulletins were quite common, though they seldom follow such a tragedy.
Shares of Boeing stock were trading up Wednesday morning.
Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the consulting firm Teal Group, argues that it's more important to emphasize how pilots react to failures such as incorrect sensor readings than the failures themselves.
Read More: The 20 safest airlines in the world
"Bad information can happen, and it's best that the emphasis is on training in the event of contingencies such as these," Aboulafia said.
Lion Air Flight 610 crashed in the Java Sea shortly after taking off from Jakarta, Indonesia, on October 28. All 189 people on board the flight were killed. Flight JT610 marked the first fatal crash involving Boeing's next-generation 737 Max aircraft.
The 737 Max, the fastest-selling plane in Boeing history, is the latest version of the company's 737 family of jets. Boeing has more than 4,500 unfilled orders for the 737 Max on its books.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If you're flying to San Francisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair ... because it might be the last one you see.

Boeing and the FAA have not grounded 737s until the crash dive problem that killed 190 people in Indonesia is fixed.

Boeing has sent notices to airlines. Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business
Benjamin Zhang 2h

Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive.
The aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia says that since the bulletin doesn't reflect poorly on the 737 Max's design, Boeing's business is unlikely to be harmed by the news.
Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive, Bloomberg reported.
"The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors," the Chicago-based planemaker said in a statement. "Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft."
Boeing's bulletin advises pilots to use existing procedures to recover from such an abrupt dive.
"On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," the company's statement said.
Read More: The Lion Air Flight 610 crash is the worst airliner accident of 2018
But according to the veteran aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, fallout from the crash won't have much of an effect on Boeing's business.
"If this is the cause, it's nothing the system hasn't dealt with before and it's extremely discreet and manageable," Aboulafia said in an interview with Business Insider.
"This is a tragedy, but it says absolutely nothing about the design of the plane and its major subsystems."
lion air plane crash
Items recovered from the crash of Lion Air Flight 610. Eddy Purwanto/NurPhoto via Getty Images
In addition, the analyst explained that such bulletins were quite common, though they seldom follow such a tragedy.
Shares of Boeing stock were trading up Wednesday morning.
Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the consulting firm Teal Group, argues that it's more important to emphasize how pilots react to failures such as incorrect sensor readings than the failures themselves.
Read More: The 20 safest airlines in the world
"Bad information can happen, and it's best that the emphasis is on training in the event of contingencies such as these," Aboulafia said.
Lion Air Flight 610 crashed in the Java Sea shortly after taking off from Jakarta, Indonesia, on October 28. All 189 people on board the flight were killed. Flight JT610 marked the first fatal crash involving Boeing's next-generation 737 Max aircraft.
The 737 Max, the fastest-selling plane in Boeing history, is the latest version of the company's 737 family of jets. Boeing has more than 4,500 unfilled orders for the 737 Max on its books.

Here's the problem. Many people fly 737s and they don't crash. And yet the Indonesians have a poor safety record in the first place and manage to crash the things.

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft - Wikipedia

Saying that the last 4 plane crashes are 737s.

LionAir killing 189 passengers and crew.
Micronesia flight kills one person after landing short of the runway.
18 people injured in Sochi and airport employee dies of a heart attack.
Xiamen Airlines flight crashes in monsoon weather in the Philippines.

What they all have in common are poor safety records. Not the Chinese airlines, but the airport, Russia has a poor safety record, Indonesia has a poor safety record and Micronesia is a developing country.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

Conjures USAir 427 in Pittsburgh, 1994.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

I never fly commercial.

 

[SavannahMann]

Any electronic or mechanical component can fail, in cars, computers, trucks, your kid’s bicycle. It is why we spend so much time teaching people how to respond to the emergency. We tell our kids how to handle a flat tire at speed in case of a blowout. We teach them how to respond to a brake failure. We teach them so they can manage the situation IF it happens. They are certain to have some failure of a component sooner or later.

Pilots are no different. They are trained, or supposed to be, in how to handle the inevitable malfunctions that WILL occur. In this case, it sounds like a sensor went bad, and the plane was giving conflicting data to the pilots. In that case, the guy flying the plane is supposed to first, remember to fly the plane.

Boeing Issues Safety Warning After a Fatal 737 MAX Nosedive

It doesn’t mean that the plane is badly designed. Nor does it mean that there is a fatal flaw in the plane. What it sounds like is that the pilots made an error in how they handled the emergency. All planes have a setting. If all else fails, and you have only basic flight instruments, in other words, altimeter, and the artificial horizon, then you set a percentage of power, and a certain amount of nose up, and the plane flies straight and level until you as the pilot can figure out what is going on.

The famed Air France flight that slammed into the Atlantic Ocean was an instance where the pilots did not do that. It is very rare that such failures happen, just as it is rare that a car suffers a catastrophic blowout. But the operator must be prepared to take manual control at all times, and insure the safe operation of the vehicle, land, or air, or sea. The problem is that the humans are so accustomed to the computer doing a bang up fantastic job, that when the computer stops, we keep trying to get the computer to reset and work like it is supposed to. Instead of doing what we are supposed to.

Many pilots have very little experience “hand flying” the planes today. Their entire career has been watching the computer fly. They may have tens of thousands of hours of experience, but all but a couple hundred are watching the computer fly the plane. So instead of going with their basic flight as a default response, the default response is to start to work the computer, turning them into poorly trained computer technicians in an moving vehicle, instead of pilots.

Blaming Boeing for NOT grounding the planes when it looks like a faulty sensor, and pilot error, caused the crash. Once the fault is figured out, then it can be fixed. You can check and see if other sensors have a similar fault. Pilot error is the first thing you have to address. Because the fix so far is to have airlines remind their pilots that they are pilots, and not computer technicians, and they need to know how to fly the fucking plane.

 

[Denizen]

So the 190 dead people are of no interest to Boeing?

Perhaps Boeing can just throw some MAGA hats in the water at the crash site.

 

[Denizen]

If you're flying to San Francisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair ... because it might be the last one you see.

Boeing and the FAA have not grounded 737s until the crash dive problem that killed 190 people in Indonesia is fixed.

Boeing has sent notices to airlines. Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business
Benjamin Zhang 2h

Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive.
The aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia says that since the bulletin doesn't reflect poorly on the 737 Max's design, Boeing's business is unlikely to be harmed by the news.
Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive, Bloomberg reported.
"The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors," the Chicago-based planemaker said in a statement. "Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft."
Boeing's bulletin advises pilots to use existing procedures to recover from such an abrupt dive.
"On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," the company's statement said.
Read More: The Lion Air Flight 610 crash is the worst airliner accident of 2018
But according to the veteran aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, fallout from the crash won't have much of an effect on Boeing's business.
"If this is the cause, it's nothing the system hasn't dealt with before and it's extremely discreet and manageable," Aboulafia said in an interview with Business Insider.
"This is a tragedy, but it says absolutely nothing about the design of the plane and its major subsystems."
lion air plane crash
Items recovered from the crash of Lion Air Flight 610. Eddy Purwanto/NurPhoto via Getty Images
In addition, the analyst explained that such bulletins were quite common, though they seldom follow such a tragedy.
Shares of Boeing stock were trading up Wednesday morning.
Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the consulting firm Teal Group, argues that it's more important to emphasize how pilots react to failures such as incorrect sensor readings than the failures themselves.
Read More: The 20 safest airlines in the world
"Bad information can happen, and it's best that the emphasis is on training in the event of contingencies such as these," Aboulafia said.
Lion Air Flight 610 crashed in the Java Sea shortly after taking off from Jakarta, Indonesia, on October 28. All 189 people on board the flight were killed. Flight JT610 marked the first fatal crash involving Boeing's next-generation 737 Max aircraft.
The 737 Max, the fastest-selling plane in Boeing history, is the latest version of the company's 737 family of jets. Boeing has more than 4,500 unfilled orders for the 737 Max on its books.

Here's the problem. Many people fly 737s and they don't crash. And yet the Indonesians have a poor safety record in the first place and manage to crash the things.

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft - Wikipedia

Saying that the last 4 plane crashes are 737s.

LionAir killing 189 passengers and crew.
Micronesia flight kills one person after landing short of the runway.
18 people injured in Sochi and airport employee dies of a heart attack.
Xiamen Airlines flight crashes in monsoon weather in the Philippines.

What they all have in common are poor safety records. Not the Chinese airlines, but the airport, Russia has a poor safety record, Indonesia has a poor safety record and Micronesia is a developing country.

Translation: They're mostly Indonesians and Boeing doesn't give a shit.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If you're flying to San Francisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair ... because it might be the last one you see.

Boeing and the FAA have not grounded 737s until the crash dive problem that killed 190 people in Indonesia is fixed.

Boeing has sent notices to airlines. Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business
Benjamin Zhang 2h

Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive.
The aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia says that since the bulletin doesn't reflect poorly on the 737 Max's design, Boeing's business is unlikely to be harmed by the news.
Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive, Bloomberg reported.
"The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors," the Chicago-based planemaker said in a statement. "Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft."
Boeing's bulletin advises pilots to use existing procedures to recover from such an abrupt dive.
"On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," the company's statement said.
Read More: The Lion Air Flight 610 crash is the worst airliner accident of 2018
But according to the veteran aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, fallout from the crash won't have much of an effect on Boeing's business.
"If this is the cause, it's nothing the system hasn't dealt with before and it's extremely discreet and manageable," Aboulafia said in an interview with Business Insider.
"This is a tragedy, but it says absolutely nothing about the design of the plane and its major subsystems."
lion air plane crash
Items recovered from the crash of Lion Air Flight 610. Eddy Purwanto/NurPhoto via Getty Images
In addition, the analyst explained that such bulletins were quite common, though they seldom follow such a tragedy.
Shares of Boeing stock were trading up Wednesday morning.
Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the consulting firm Teal Group, argues that it's more important to emphasize how pilots react to failures such as incorrect sensor readings than the failures themselves.
Read More: The 20 safest airlines in the world
"Bad information can happen, and it's best that the emphasis is on training in the event of contingencies such as these," Aboulafia said.
Lion Air Flight 610 crashed in the Java Sea shortly after taking off from Jakarta, Indonesia, on October 28. All 189 people on board the flight were killed. Flight JT610 marked the first fatal crash involving Boeing's next-generation 737 Max aircraft.
The 737 Max, the fastest-selling plane in Boeing history, is the latest version of the company's 737 family of jets. Boeing has more than 4,500 unfilled orders for the 737 Max on its books.

Here's the problem. Many people fly 737s and they don't crash. And yet the Indonesians have a poor safety record in the first place and manage to crash the things.

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft - Wikipedia

Saying that the last 4 plane crashes are 737s.

LionAir killing 189 passengers and crew.
Micronesia flight kills one person after landing short of the runway.
18 people injured in Sochi and airport employee dies of a heart attack.
Xiamen Airlines flight crashes in monsoon weather in the Philippines.

What they all have in common are poor safety records. Not the Chinese airlines, but the airport, Russia has a poor safety record, Indonesia has a poor safety record and Micronesia is a developing country.

Translation: They're mostly Indonesians and Boeing doesn't give a shit.

Not at all. You clearly are using a shit translator.

It's the safety standards are poor in these countries.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

You won't see me on a plane flown by an Indonesian pilot.

 

[SavannahMann]

So the 190 dead people are of no interest to Boeing?

Perhaps Boeing can just throw some MAGA hats in the water at the crash site.

Ok. Tell you what. Here is what we are going to do. We are going to make it a law, international Treaty in fact, that no person may travel by any conveyance which may have any failure. Hope you like walking. Wait, you can’t do that. You might twist an ankle.

We don’t know what the problem is yet. The initial information is that the pilots got confusing data, and made a mistake. The pilots apparently believed they were in a Stall. Do you know what an Aerodynamic Stall is? There is a procedure for this. But they did not follow the procedure. So what can Boeing do? Nothing man made can be made to never have any component fail when there are tens of millions of parts. What we can do is train people to handle the problem. No Boeing Employee is able to sit behind the pilots and make sure they do it.

This is a video of a Boeing 747 Cargo Plane that stalled on takeoff, and crashed.



The cause? The OPERATORS of the plane, the company and the employees, were using incorrect methods to secure the cargo. A truck broke loose on takeoff, rolled backwards, broke through the pressure bulkhead, broke the flight recording machinery loose, destroyed one of the Hydrolic Systems, and caused a shift in weight that was with all the other damage, unrecoverable.

Crash of Boeing 747 in Afghanistan caused by shifting cargo

Without the damage to the hydrolics, there was no way to keep the plane flying and safely land. One of the things they do is put pilots into simulators to see if the pilots could have saved the plane. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes it is no. The funny thing is this, Boeing when they were given the Company’s documents on how to tie down cargo said that it was the worst way possible to do so. The Boeing people had told the company what it took in the documentation that accompanied the aircraft. Do we blame Boeing for not making sure the operators were doing it right?

You want to ground all of Boeings planes because the initial information is that two pilots failed to properly respond to the situation. If there is something that can be done to keep it from happening in the future, the investigators will find it. But that takes time. Until you know enough, figuring out what to do is hard. That is why it takes time, and the investigators. They will find as many answers as they can, and their reports are brutal in describing the causes, often even blasting the FAA, their parent organization, for failures or errors.

Learn something about how aircraft accidents are investigated. Learn why planes fly, and why they stop flying. When Boeing does make a mistake in the design, they always rush out and fix it on all the planes that are possibly affected. Often before the order comes out from the FAA to do so, Boeing has already issued either repairs, or redesigned equipment to correct the failure. Because Boeing is involved in the investigation, assisting the investigators.

Alongside the Indonesian Investigator, is an American Investigator because an American Company built the plane. There to assist the Indonesian Investigator. Also there is a representative from the company that made the engines. Boeing sends at least one person who is very familiar with the design of that particular aircraft, not to cover things up, but to help learn about it and what if any mistakes were made, and what can be done to correct them. If you wonder why, ask the folks at deHaviland. Oh you can’t. They’re history after the Comet design errors.

 

[martybegan]

If you're flying to San Francisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair ... because it might be the last one you see.

Boeing and the FAA have not grounded 737s until the crash dive problem that killed 190 people in Indonesia is fixed.

Boeing has sent notices to airlines. Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business

Boeing is warning 737 Max customers about a flaw that could make the jet suddenly dive — but an expert says the potentially deadly issue won't affect the company's business
Benjamin Zhang 2h

Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive.
The aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia says that since the bulletin doesn't reflect poorly on the 737 Max's design, Boeing's business is unlikely to be harmed by the news.
Boeing issued a safety bulletin on Tuesday for airlines operating its new 737 Max airliner in the wake of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.
The bulletin cautions operators of the 737 Max that erroneous readings from one of the plane's sensors can cause the aircraft to enter into a sudden dive, Bloomberg reported.
"The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee has indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous input from one of its AOA (Angle of Attack) sensors," the Chicago-based planemaker said in a statement. "Whenever appropriate, Boeing, as part of its usual processes, issues bulletins or makes recommendations regarding the operation of its aircraft."
Boeing's bulletin advises pilots to use existing procedures to recover from such an abrupt dive.
"On November 6, 2018, Boeing issued an Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) directing operators to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," the company's statement said.
Read More: The Lion Air Flight 610 crash is the worst airliner accident of 2018
But according to the veteran aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, fallout from the crash won't have much of an effect on Boeing's business.
"If this is the cause, it's nothing the system hasn't dealt with before and it's extremely discreet and manageable," Aboulafia said in an interview with Business Insider.
"This is a tragedy, but it says absolutely nothing about the design of the plane and its major subsystems."
lion air plane crash
Items recovered from the crash of Lion Air Flight 610. Eddy Purwanto/NurPhoto via Getty Images
In addition, the analyst explained that such bulletins were quite common, though they seldom follow such a tragedy.
Shares of Boeing stock were trading up Wednesday morning.
Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the consulting firm Teal Group, argues that it's more important to emphasize how pilots react to failures such as incorrect sensor readings than the failures themselves.
Read More: The 20 safest airlines in the world
"Bad information can happen, and it's best that the emphasis is on training in the event of contingencies such as these," Aboulafia said.
Lion Air Flight 610 crashed in the Java Sea shortly after taking off from Jakarta, Indonesia, on October 28. All 189 people on board the flight were killed. Flight JT610 marked the first fatal crash involving Boeing's next-generation 737 Max aircraft.
The 737 Max, the fastest-selling plane in Boeing history, is the latest version of the company's 737 family of jets. Boeing has more than 4,500 unfilled orders for the 737 Max on its books.

Here's the problem. Many people fly 737s and they don't crash. And yet the Indonesians have a poor safety record in the first place and manage to crash the things.

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft - Wikipedia

Saying that the last 4 plane crashes are 737s.

LionAir killing 189 passengers and crew.
Micronesia flight kills one person after landing short of the runway.
18 people injured in Sochi and airport employee dies of a heart attack.
Xiamen Airlines flight crashes in monsoon weather in the Philippines.

What they all have in common are poor safety records. Not the Chinese airlines, but the airport, Russia has a poor safety record, Indonesia has a poor safety record and Micronesia is a developing country.

The biggest difference in maintenance is US (and Euro) airlines are far quicker to remove a plane from service. The multiple repairs that happened to the instrument in question would not have happened on a US airline, the plane would have been pulled and the instrument swapped out.

Of course this is all preliminary information, the full investigation has to happen before we know for sure.