Bill Maher Insults Troops - Again

[sitarro]

my point was that he had the opportunity to select the aircraft in which he would train with the knowledge before the fact that it would not be deployed to Vietnam.... and in Bush's case, the political influence that was clearly exerted on his behalf to get him leapfrogged ahead of 500 other more or equally deserving TANG pilot candidates just as his student deferrment ran out does in fact mean that he stayed flying over the relatively safe Gulf of Mexico for his abbreviated stint as a F102 pilot while his contemporaries were going to Vietnam as an infantryman...and no doubt, the fact that he DIDN'T go to Vietnam caused some other poor fellow to have to go in his place.... I wonder if THAT guy came home alive, don't you?

So are you actually going to try to make us believe that......
1. A pilot gets to choose the aircraft they want to fly
2. That there was even a single F-4 in the National Guard for him to choose. The National Guard is always updated late with aircraft the Air Force has discarded.

In the 29 years my father served in th U.S. Air Force, he was never given a choice, he was assigned what the Air Force wanted him to fly. He also wasn't given a choice of where he was going to serve, he got out at 29 years because the Air Force was going to send him to Vietnam to instruct South Vietnamese pilots for his last year. He told them to respectfully go screw themselves and retired a year earlier than he wanted to.

The first F-4s didn't go to National Guard units until 1972, how could Lt. Bush have asked to fly them when his unit was flying F-102s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II#Phantom_in_non-US_service
On 31 January 1972, the 170th Tactical Fighter Squadron/183d Tactical Fighter Group of Illinois Air National Guard became the first Air National Guard unit to transition to Phantoms. The ANG service lasted until 31 March 1990,

 

[maineman]

So are you actually going to try to make us believe that......
1. A pilot gets to choose the aircraft they want to fly
2. That there was even a single F-4 in the National Guard for him to choose. The National Guard is always updated late with aircraft the Air Force has discarded.

In the 29 years my father served in th U.S. Air Force, he was never given a choice, he was assigned what the Air Force wanted him to fly. He also wasn't given a choice of where he was going to serve, he got out at 29 years because the Air Force was going to send him to Vietnam to instruct South Vietnamese pilots for his last year. He told them to respectfully go screw themselves and retired a year earlier than he wanted to.

The first F-4s didn't go to National Guard units until 1972, how could Lt. Bush have asked to fly them when his unit was flying F-102s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II#Phantom_in_non-US_service
On 31 January 1972, the 170th Tactical Fighter Squadron/183d Tactical Fighter Group of Illinois Air National Guard became the first Air National Guard unit to transition to Phantoms. The ANG service lasted until 31 March 1990,

1. I most definitely am saying that pilots out of basic flight school get to request the type of aircraft in which they receive follow on training - absolutely.

2. I am saying that Bush chose the F102, and at the time he chose it, the air force had already announced that that aircraft would not longer serve on forward deployments. If Bush had WANTED to go to Vietnam, he would have chosen to fly some other aircraft OTHER than F102s...like RF101's or C121's - both flown by national guard units in Vietnam during the brief time that George Bush was patrolling the gulf of mexico before he failed to show up for his flight physical and lost his flight status... and then got his early out.

 

[maineman]

remember...in interviews earlier in his career, George W. Bush was quite candid about not wanting to go to Vietnam...he considered firing a shotgun next to his ear to blow out his eardrum thus disqualifying himself... he considered going to Canada to avoid the draft, but in the end chose to learn how to fly airplanes for the Texas Air National Guard. Given his other potential options, why would you find it hard to believe that he would chose an aircraft out of basic flight school that was certain NOT to go to Vietnam?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4114162/

 

[sitarro]

1. I most definitely am saying that pilots out of basic flight school get to request the type of aircraft in which they receive follow on training - absolutely.

2. I am saying that Bush chose the F102, and at the time he chose it, the air force had already announced that that aircraft would not longer serve on forward deployments. If Bush had WANTED to go to Vietnam, he would have chosen to fly some other aircraft OTHER than F102s...like RF101's or C121's - both flown by national guard units in Vietnam during the brief time that George Bush was patrolling the gulf of mexico before he failed to show up for his flight physical and lost his flight status... and then got his early out.

The RF-101 was also replaced by F-4s at the same time as the F-102. C-121 why would someone that waned to fly fighters apply to fly a Connie?

 

[red states rule]

You have evidence that this was done? Or is this just Bush-bashing conjecture?

there were plenty of news reports delineating accounts from Texas officials discussing the pull used by Poppy Bush to get George into the TANG.... I am sorry you missed them, but it really isn't a big enough deal either way for me to go digging around the net looking for them.... the point has always been: Bush didn't serve in Vietnam...Kerry did, and did so with bravery and valor. Should he had tried to run for President on the strength of his Silver Star and his Bronze Star? Absolutely not. Like I said before - I agree with you on that and on the fact that Kerry was not a strong candidate...he should have voted against the use of force and then run against the war on ON the planks of the democratic platform and stayed away from 30 year old heroics.

We had an election where the voters decided if your Bush bashing DNC talking points were true

As sportscaster Warner Wolf would say "If you took John Kerry and 19 states - YOU LOST"

 

[maineman]

The RF-101 was also replaced by F-4s at the same time as the F-102. C-121 why would someone that waned to fly fighters apply to fly a Connie?

I already answered the question, but let me repost it for you:

"IF Bush had WANTED to go to Vietnam, he would have chosen to fly some other aircraft OTHER than F102s."

Clearly, for someone who had contemplated escaping to Canada or blowing his eardrum out with a close range shotgun report rather than even GO to Vietnam, flying a jet "fighter" that was not really required to "fight" anything around the relatively friendly confines of the airspace over the Gulf of Mexico seemed much more appropriate.

 

[red states rule]

It seems the pro terrorist rally in DC was a bust. A miserable turnout was distressing to the liberal media which was hoping to continue to bash the Bush administration and the US military


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Thousands of anti-war demonstrators and supporters of the U.S. policy in Iraq shouted at each other Saturday from opposite sides of a street bordering the National Mall as protesters formed a march to the Pentagon to denounce a war entering its fifth year.

The anti-war group carried signs saying "U.S. Out of Iraq Now," "Stop Iraq War, No Iran War, Impeach" and "Illegal Combat." The other side carried signs saying "Peace Through Strength," "al Qaeda Appeasers On Parade" and "We Are At War, Liberals Root For the Enemy."

Police on horseback and foot separated the demonstrators, who were on opposite sides of Constitution Avenue in view of the Lincoln Memorial. Barriers also kept them apart.

But war protester Susanne Shine of Boone, North Carolina, found herself in a crowd of counterdemonstrators. She came out in tears, with her sign in shreds.

"They ripped up my peace sign," she said.

Thousands crossed the Potomac River from the Lincoln Memorial to rally loudly but peacefully near the Pentagon.

"We're here in the shadow of the war machine," said anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan, whose soldier son was killed in Iraq. (Watch Sheehan march with a throng of protesters )

"It's like being in the shadow of the Death Star," she said, referring to the planet-sized warship in the movie "Star Wars." "They take their death and destruction and they export it around the world. We need to shut it down."

Speakers blamed congressional Democrats, too, for refusing to cut off money for the war.

"This is a bipartisan war," New York City labor activist Michael Letwin told the crowd. "The Democratic Party cannot be trusted to end it." Letwin said the key to ending the war soon is to bring more troops and their families into the protest movement.

An hour into the three-hour rally, with the temperature near freezing, fewer than 1,000 protesters were left.

Police reported no arrests Saturday, after more than 200 Friday night.

People traveled from afar in stormy weather to join the march.

"Too many people have died and it doesn't solve anything," said Ann Bonner, who drove through snow with her husband, Tom O'Grady, and two children, 13 and 10, from Athens, Ohio. "I feel bad carrying out my daily activities while people are suffering, Americans and Iraqis."

Veteran says he's conflicted
Saturday's march was the main event in anti-war demonstrations around the country.

Rallies also took place in Los Angeles, California; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Hartford, Connecticut; Lincoln, Nebraska; and other cities.

In Los Angeles, Vietnam veteran Ed Ellis, 59, hoped the demonstrations would be the "tipping point" against the war.

"It's all moving in our direction, it's happening," he said. "The administration, their get-out-of-jail-free card, they don't get one anymore."

In Washington, war supporters played "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"; the anti-war crowd danced to Stevie Wonder's "Superstition." (See the results of CNN's latest poll on whether Americans think the war is worth it)

Veterans, some from the Rolling Thunder motorcycle group, lined up at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

"I'm not sure I'm in support of the war," said William "Skip" Publicover of Charleston, South Carolina, who was a swift boat gunner in Vietnam and lost two friends whose names are etched on the memorial's wall.

"I learned in Vietnam that it's difficult if not impossible to win the hearts and minds of the people."

Retired Marine Jeff Carroll, 47, an electrician in Milton, Delaware, held a sign saying: "Proud of our soldiers, ashamed of our president."

Carroll said he served in Lebanon when the Marine barracks was bombed in a deadly attack in 1983, and thinks the United States should be focusing on Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden instead of Iraq.

"We're fighting the wrong country," he said.

But Larry Stimeling, 57, a Vietnam veteran from Morton, Illinois, said the loss of public support for the Iraq war mirrors what happened in Vietnam and leaves troops without the backing they need.

"We didn't lose the war in Vietnam, we lost it right here on this same ground," he said, pointing to the grass on the National Mall. "It's the same thing now."

Park Police Lt. Scott Fear said more than 200 people were arrested from a crowd of several thousand protesters who marched to the White House on Friday night after a peace service at the Washington National Cathedral. Full story

Overseas Saturday, at least 20,000 demonstrators rallied against the war in Madrid, Spain; more than 6,000 in Istanbul, Turkey; 1,000 in Athens, Greece; and several hundred in Copenhagen, Denmark.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/17/iraq.protest.ap/index.html

 

[red states rule]

Veterans, Others Denounce Marchers
Counter-Demonstrators Number in Thousands

By Brigid Schulte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 18, 2007; Page A12

As war protesters marched toward Arlington Memorial Bridge en route to the Pentagon yesterday, they were flanked by long lines of military veterans and others who stood in solidarity with U.S. troops and the Bush administration's cause in Iraq. Many booed loudly as the protesters passed, turned their backs to them or yelled, "If you don't like America, get out!"

Several thousand vets, some of whom came by bus from New Jersey, car caravans from California or flights from Seattle or Michigan, lined the route from the bridge and down 23rd Street, waving signs such as "War There Or War Here." Their lines snaked around the corner and down several blocks of Constitution Avenue in what organizers called the largest gathering of pro-administration counter-demonstrators since the war began four years ago.

The vets turned both sides of Constitution into a bitter, charged gantlet for the war protesters. "Jihadists!" some vets screamed. "You're brain-dead!" Others chanted, "Workers World traitors must hang!" -- a reference to the Communist newspaper. Some broke into "The Star-Spangled Banner" as war protesters sought to hand out pamphlets.

"Bunch of hooligans in motorcycle jackets!" one war protester shot back.

The large turnout surprised even some counter-demonstrators. Polls show public opinion turning against the war in Iraq, and the November election was widely seen as a repudiation of the administration's policy.

"I've never been to a war rally. I hoped I'd never have to," said Jim Wilson, 62, a Vietnam vet from New Hampshire. "We're like what they used to call the silent majority."

In some past antiwar rallies, the number of counter-demonstrators has ranged from a handful to a few hundred. "Our side got apathetic," said Debby Lee, whose son Marc, a Navy SEAL, was killed in Iraq and who came to the rally from Phoenix in a caravan organized by MoveAmericaForward.org.

But the war protesters have gone too far, Lee and others said. At a Jan. 27 antiwar rally, some protesters spray-painted the pavement on a Capitol terrace. Others crowned the Lone Sailor statue at the Navy Memorial on Pennsylvania Avenue with a pink tiara that had "Women for Peace" written across it.

Word of those incidents ricocheted around the Internet.

"That was the real catalyst, right there," said Navy veteran Larry Bailey. "They showed they were willing to desecrate something that's sacred to the American soul."

Well before 7 a.m., hundreds of people milled about near the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in an effort to, they said, "occupy the ground" and keep any disrespectful war protesters away.

"This is sacred ground to us," said Rick De Marco, 62, a Vietnam veteran from Cleveland.

K.C. O'Brien, 65, a Vietnam vet from Fairfield, Calif., said: "We believe in freedom of speech. We're here to defend the right of people to say whatever they want. But we will not allow any desecration."

Within days of the spray-painting, people were using he Web to organize, making it their mission to protect the monuments, support the troops and accept nothing less than victory in Iraq.

Gathering of Eagles, the group that organized the protest, was so worried about threats to the monuments that it hired private security to guard the Wall, said Harry Riley, 69, a retired Army colonel from Florida. Other vets patrolled the area through the night and early morning, he said.

By early morning, the National Park Service had installed two metal detectors and carefully controlled entry along the path leading to the Wall. Blue-helmeted riot police were stationed along the length of the Wall. For a time, a handful of vets paraded back and forth with American flags waving in the stiff, cold breeze.

By 2 p.m., with the war protesters across the Potomac River, the metal detectors had come down. The path along the Wall was quiet as the occasional veteran paused at the name of someone remembered.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0.html?sub=new

 

[sitarro]

I already answered the question, but let me repost it for you:

"IF Bush had WANTED to go to Vietnam, he would have chosen to fly some other aircraft OTHER than F102s."

Clearly, for someone who had contemplated escaping to Canada or blowing his eardrum out with a close range shotgun report rather than even GO to Vietnam, flying a jet "fighter" that was not really required to "fight" anything around the relatively friendly confines of the airspace over the Gulf of Mexico seemed much more appropriate.

You know what Mainman, if President Bush would have wanted to go to Vietnam back then, I would have thought he was certifiably insane. I would also think there are more than a few people that would tell you that it takes a hell of a lot bigger balls to climb in a jet that was known as a squirrelly piece of shit and patrol it's ass above 40,000 ft. over water than to fuck around in a boat anywhere......I am bored with you asshole, fuck off!

Oh and thank you for your service......Go Navy and all that shit.

 

[red states rule]

You know what Mainman, if President Bush would have wanted to go to Vietnam back then, I would have thought he was certifiably insane. I would also think there are more than a few people that would tell you that it take a hell of a lot bigger balls to climb in a jet that was known as a squirrely piece of shit and patrol it's ass above 40,000 ft. over water than to fuck around in a boat anywhere......I am bored with you asshole, fuck off!

Flying a jet is not an easy thing to do. Of course to the Bush haters, they will never admit Pres Bush did his service and that is the end of the story

Or are libs sliming those who served and are serving in the National Guard?

 

[Gunny]

You have evidence that this was done? Or is this just Bush-bashing conjecture?

there were plenty of news reports delineating accounts from Texas officials discussing the pull used by Poppy Bush to get George into the TANG.... I am sorry you missed them, but it really isn't a big enough deal either way for me to go digging around the net looking for them.... the point has always been: Bush didn't serve in Vietnam...Kerry did, and did so with bravery and valor. Should he had tried to run for President on the strength of his Silver Star and his Bronze Star? Absolutely not. Like I said before - I agree with you on that and on the fact that Kerry was not a strong candidate...he should have voted against the use of force and then run against the war on ON the planks of the democratic platform and stayed away from 30 year old heroics.

I DO recall a lot of unsupported allegations made by the left concerning any-and-every aspect of Bush's military service. I have YET to see 99 44/100% of the allegations supported by actual fact/evidence.

On the other hand, the actual evidence/facts that support Kerry's service throw a HUGE shadow of doubt on his so-called "bravery and valor." And I am not speaking specifically of allegations made by Swiftboaters and/or right wing extremist hacks.

I'm speaking of the huge holes in the stories Kerry tell himself as fact that are obvious to anyone who has served in the military and doesn't purposefully blind themselves to them.

 

[red states rule]

I DO recall a lot of unsupported allegations made by the left concerning any-and-every aspect of Bush's military service. I have YET to see 99 44/100% of the allegations supported by actual fact/evidence.

On the other hand, the actual evidence/facts that support Kerry's service throw a HUGE shadow of doubt on his so-called "bravery and valor." And I am not speaking specifically of allegations made by Swiftboaters and/or right wing extremist hacks.

I'm speaking of the huge holes in the stories Kerry tell himself as fact that are obvious to anyone who has served in the military and doesn't purposefully blind themselves to them.

Libs still believe Dan rathers forged documents from a Kerry supporter, is postive proof Pres Bush did not do his duty

Listening to John Kerry tell his war stories one would think he was a combination of Gen Patton, Douglas MacArthur, and Norman Swartzkoff all roled into one

Kerry is a military legend and genius in his own mind

 

[Gunny]

1. I most definitely am saying that pilots out of basic flight school get to request the type of aircraft in which they receive follow on training - absolutely.

2. I am saying that Bush chose the F102, and at the time he chose it, the air force had already announced that that aircraft would not longer serve on forward deployments. If Bush had WANTED to go to Vietnam, he would have chosen to fly some other aircraft OTHER than F102s...like RF101's or C121's - both flown by national guard units in Vietnam during the brief time that George Bush was patrolling the gulf of mexico before he failed to show up for his flight physical and lost his flight status... and then got his early out.

The Air Force may very-well have already announced its intent to pull the F-102.

Question is, did the TX AFNG do so? Hardly makes sense for him to NOT choose an aircraft the organization he was flying for was STILL using. Right?

I don't think anyone, to include Bush, has EVER argued that he "wanted to go to Vietnam." I can't honestly say I have ever met that many people over the course of the years, who served during that era, that DID want to go.

And speaking of "whirlwind tours" .... how about that 4-month combat tour of Kerry's? Seems to me he used a questionable tactic to bring that little adventure to a premature conclusion.

When Bush got his "early out," hadn't the decision already been made to cut military forces in Vietnam? And was the Guard unit he was assigned to slated to deploy there?

 

[red states rule]

Still waiting for Kerry's militray records

 

[Gunny]

I already answered the question, but let me repost it for you:

"IF Bush had WANTED to go to Vietnam, he would have chosen to fly some other aircraft OTHER than F102s."

Clearly, for someone who had contemplated escaping to Canada or blowing his eardrum out with a close range shotgun report rather than even GO to Vietnam, flying a jet "fighter" that was not really required to "fight" anything around the relatively friendly confines of the airspace over the Gulf of Mexico seemed much more appropriate.

Your argument however, is relative. Why did YOU choose to be a Navy officer and do whatever you did when you could have chosen to be a Marine 0302 in year two at the Academy? How many grunt officers have paid the price because of your making that decision?

I mean, had you REALLY wanted to go to war and be where the REAL action is, then you would have chosen to be a Marine grunt, right? And I DO know enough to know that choice WAS yours. Right?

 

[red states rule]

Your argument however, is relative. Why did YOU choose to be a Navy officer and do whatever you did when you could have chosen to be a Marine 0302 in year two at the Academy? How many grunt officers have paid the price because of your making that decision?

I mean, had you REALLY wanted to go to war and be where the REAL action is, then you would have chosen to be a Marine grunt, right? And I DO know enough to know that choice WAS yours. Right?

I can see Kerry (and MM) trying to fly a jet............

 

[Gunny]

You know what Mainman, if President Bush would have wanted to go to Vietnam back then, I would have thought he was certifiably insane. I would also think there are more than a few people that would tell you that it take a hell of a lot bigger balls to climb in a jet that was known as a squirrelly piece of shit and patrol it's ass above 40,000 ft. over water than to fuck around in a boat anywhere......I am bored with you asshole, fuck off!

Oh and thank you for your service......Go Navy and all that shit.

How about "none of the above?" I can run or walk a lot further than I can swim or fly under my own locomotion, and haul a lot more shit that goes "bang" while doing so.

 

[Gunny]

I can see Kerry (and MM) trying to fly a jet............

You have a sick, warped mind and should really consider some professional help.

 

[red states rule]

You have a sick, warped mind and should really consider some professional help.

Anyone with a body temp would bail if Kerry took the controls, it would crash and burn like his terror plan

 

[maineman]

I DO recall a lot of unsupported allegations made by the left concerning any-and-every aspect of Bush's military service. I have YET to see 99 44/100% of the allegations supported by actual fact/evidence.

On the other hand, the actual evidence/facts that support Kerry's service throw a HUGE shadow of doubt on his so-called "bravery and valor." And I am not speaking specifically of allegations made by Swiftboaters and/or right wing extremist hacks.

I'm speaking of the huge holes in the stories Kerry tell himself as fact that are obvious to anyone who has served in the military and doesn't purposefully blind themselves to them.

If you, Gunny, honestly think that the Naval Service hands out medals fraudulently, then you must be ready to have me or anyone else question the validity of the fruit salad above YOUR left pocket. You can doubt Kerry's valor all you want, but if you are really doubting the Silver Star and the Bronze Star won for heroismand valor in combat, then you are throwing mud on every navy and marine medal recipient from Nam and any other wars, for that matter.