And replaced with what? The government that relied mainly in tariff income to fund the government is gone. We could not fund the military adequately just on that.*Both* need to be abolished...
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And replaced with what? The government that relied mainly in tariff income to fund the government is gone. We could not fund the military adequately just on that.*Both* need to be abolished...
And replaced with what? The government that relied mainly in tariff income to fund the government is gone. We could not fund the military adequately just on that.*Both* need to be abolished...
And replaced with what? The government that relied mainly in tariff income to fund the government is gone. We could not fund the military adequately just on that.*Both* need to be abolished...
We should have a flat tax, not a fair tax. Abolish the IRS, but have everyone pay the same percentage on "wages, monies earned," straight across the board, 13%.
We should have a flat tax, not a fair tax. Abolish the IRS, but have everyone pay the same percentage on "wages, monies earned," straight across the board, 13%.
The Founders didn't wish Income taxed, and instead opted taxing Commerce...(As it should be...as it once was). That changed in 1913
And has been a tool of the Socialist manipulators ever since and that Includes the Federal Reserve.
We should have a flat tax, not a fair tax. Abolish the IRS, but have everyone pay the same percentage on "wages, monies earned," straight across the board, 13%.
The Founders didn't wish Income taxed, and instead opted taxing Commerce...(As it should be...as it once was). That changed in 1913
And has been a tool of the Socialist manipulators ever since and that Includes the Federal Reserve.
You are correct about the Founders never intending to have the federal government laying taxes calculated from income.
The problem with a tax calculated from incomes is, the definition of what is and what is not taxable income. Prior to the adoption of the 16th Amendment and before the victory tax was laid during WWII, people pretty much understood and were in agreement with the definition of income as being a profit and/or gain and that all necessary expenses and outlays were deducted from gross receipts in order to arrive a taxable income. But the definition of income as it was understood during the adoption of the 16th Amendment has been distorted by folks in government, especially by our Courts, beyond its original understand and to such a degree that it is now used to extract a tax in such a manner as to create winners and losers with out reference to profits and/or gains.
JWK
We should have a flat tax, not a fair tax. Abolish the IRS, but have everyone pay the same percentage on "wages, monies earned," straight across the board, 13%.
I would have no problem with a flat tax, given a standard deduction that everyone receives. As for the "fair tax", it's a joke and will never get anywhere. Right off the top of my head, I can envision a massive black market being created overnight as everyone did whatever they could to avoid the tax. People would begin trading goods with no cash exchanging hands. It would be a mess and would take an unbelievably larger bureaucracy than we now have just to try to enforce it.
People who want to barter are required to cut the federal government in on the action based upon 23 percent the fair market value of the exchange.
`(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased
JWK
If we allow Congress to pass any tax at all it's going right on top of all the other taxes we already have.
Not true, the Fair Tax replaces ALL of the taxes imposed by the feds with a consumption tax. Make a list of all of the taxes collected on any product and you will find that the price of that product will stay the same under the Fair Tax.
Actually there are many, many other taxes to be laid and collected. Under the proposed legislation, H.R. 25, we find:
SEC. 302. ADMINISTRATION OF OTHER FEDERAL TAXES.
(a) In General- Section 7801 (relating to the authority of the Department of the Treasury) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`(d) Excise Tax Bureau- There shall be in the Department of the Treasury an Excise Tax Bureau to administer those excise taxes not administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
`(e) Sales Tax Bureau- There shall be in the Department of the Treasury a Sales Tax Bureau to administer the national sales tax in those States where it is required pursuant to section 404, and to discharge other Federal duties and powers relating to the national sales tax (including those required by sections 402, 403, and 405). The Office of Revenue Allocation shall be within the Sales Tax Bureau.'.
So, in fact we get
(a) a 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured products
(b) a 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which Mary and Joe have in their labor
(c) we get whatever excise taxes Congress may dream up such as a tax calculated from incomes as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States, or, a tax calculated from profits and gains as was laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs. Stone Trace,
(d) And dont for get the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes.
So, although the IRS may be closed down, two new tax collecting agencies are created and Congress maintains power to collect a variety of other taxes in addition to the alleged fairtax.
JWK
I would have no problem with a flat tax, given a standard deduction that everyone receives. As for the "fair tax", it's a joke and will never get anywhere. Right off the top of my head, I can envision a massive black market being created overnight as everyone did whatever they could to avoid the tax. People would begin trading goods with no cash exchanging hands. It would be a mess and would take an unbelievably larger bureaucracy than we now have just to try to enforce it.
People who want to barter are required to cut the federal government in on the action based upon 23 percent the ’fair market value” of the exchange.
`(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased
JWK
Barter is also required to be reported now.
Not true, the Fair Tax replaces ALL of the taxes imposed by the feds with a consumption tax. Make a list of all of the taxes collected on any product and you will find that the price of that product will stay the same under the Fair Tax.
Actually there are many, many other taxes to be laid and collected. Under the proposed legislation, H.R. 25, we find:
SEC. 302. ADMINISTRATION OF OTHER FEDERAL TAXES.
(a) In General- Section 7801 (relating to the authority of the Department of the Treasury) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`(d) Excise Tax Bureau- There shall be in the Department of the Treasury an Excise Tax Bureau to administer those excise taxes not administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
`(e) Sales Tax Bureau- There shall be in the Department of the Treasury a Sales Tax Bureau to administer the national sales tax in those States where it is required pursuant to section 404, and to discharge other Federal duties and powers relating to the national sales tax (including those required by sections 402, 403, and 405). The Office of Revenue Allocation shall be within the Sales Tax Bureau.'.
So, in fact we get
(a) a 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured products
(b) a 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which Mary and Joe have in their labor
(c) we get whatever excise taxes Congress may dream up such as a tax calculated from incomes as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States, or, a tax calculated from profits and gains as was laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs. Stone Trace,
(d) And don’t for get the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes.
So, although the IRS may be closed down, two new tax collecting agencies are created and Congress maintains power to collect a variety of other taxes in addition to the alleged “fairtax”.
JWK
There is no tax on property "which Mary and Joe have in their labor."
People who want to barter are required to cut the federal government in on the action based upon 23 percent the fair market value of the exchange.
`(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased
JWK
Barter is also required to be reported now.
I know. I think most people know that. But the point of my mentioning bartering is taxed under the alleged fair tax is, most people believe the alleged fairtax replaces existing taxes with a single tax when in fact, H.R. 25 is a clever proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress will tax and keeps alive Congress power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and incomes.
JWK
Are we really to believe the founder of fairtax.org., Leo E. Linbeck Jr., who was a former ringleader of the federal reserve banking cartel which plunders our national treasury?
Actually there are many, many other taxes to be laid and collected. Under the proposed legislation, H.R. 25, we find:
SEC. 302. ADMINISTRATION OF OTHER FEDERAL TAXES.
(a) In General- Section 7801 (relating to the authority of the Department of the Treasury) is amended by adding at the end the following:
`(d) Excise Tax Bureau- There shall be in the Department of the Treasury an Excise Tax Bureau to administer those excise taxes not administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
`(e) Sales Tax Bureau- There shall be in the Department of the Treasury a Sales Tax Bureau to administer the national sales tax in those States where it is required pursuant to section 404, and to discharge other Federal duties and powers relating to the national sales tax (including those required by sections 402, 403, and 405). The Office of Revenue Allocation shall be within the Sales Tax Bureau.'.
So, in fact we get
(a) a 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured products
(b) a 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which Mary and Joe have in their labor
(c) we get whatever excise taxes Congress may dream up such as a tax calculated from incomes as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States, or, a tax calculated from profits and gains as was laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs. Stone Trace,
(d) And dont for get the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes.
So, although the IRS may be closed down, two new tax collecting agencies are created and Congress maintains power to collect a variety of other taxes in addition to the alleged fairtax.
JWK
There is no tax on property "which Mary and Joe have in their labor."
Maybe you missed it but when Mary and Joe as I have described them sell the property they have in their labor i.e. painting or cleaning someones home, they are required under the fairtax to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor, and, before selling the property they have in their labor they must register with government, and also file fairtax returns 12 times a year under the penalty of perjury, simply because they dare to sell the property they have in their labor.
Here are some of the specific fairtax provisions:
`(d) Liability for Tax-
`(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.
`(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER-A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.
`(a) In General- Any person liable to collect and remit taxes pursuant to section 103(a) who is engaged in a trade or business shall register as a seller with the sales tax administering authority administering the taxes imposed by this subtitle.
JWK
It has been well said that
"the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands, and to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property. It is a manifest encroachment upon the just liberty both of the workman and of those who might be disposed to employ him. As it hinders the one from working at what he thinks proper, so it hinders the others from employing whom they think proper." __ See Butchers' Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884) quoting Smith, Wealth of Nations, Bk. I, c. 10.
"Mary and Joe also get to pay a new 23 percent tax upon their purchases under the alleged fairtax."
That statement should convince anyone reading your rant that you know absolutely NOTHING about the
fair tax.
JWK, I have a question.
What if all of the other federal taxes were repealed, and the Fair Tax was the only tax there?
Would you still oppose it then? I'm curious, as I'm trying to REALLY learn about our tax system much better.
JWK, I have a question.
What if all of the other federal taxes were repealed, and the Fair Tax was the only tax there?
Would you still oppose it then? I'm curious, as I'm trying to REALLY learn about our tax system much better.
No, I would not support the fairtax even if all of the other federal taxes were repealed, or to be more exact, withdrawn from Congress power to lay them and Congress were left with but one tax, the alleged fairtax. But there is a very good reason for my answer of no and it has to do with the big lie taught in government schools, that our Constitution made Blacks 3/5th of a person.
The historical fact is, the rule of apportionment, which has often been referred to as the founding fathers Great Compromise was intended to protect the people of the most productive states from being taxed by Congress disproportionately to their representation in Congress. This is what the 3/5th clause was all about, and not about making Blacks 3/5ths of a person. Let me explain.
Our founders intended for Congress to finance its expenditures from imposts and duties at our waters edge, and as a second means to fill the national treasury miscellaneous excise taxes on specifically chosen articles of consumption (indirect taxes) were permitted . But if these taxes were found insufficient to meet Congress expenditures, then, and only then was a general tax among the states allowed to be laid by Congress to equal and extinguish any shortfall created by Congress.
Our Constitutions fair share formula for any general tax laid among the states, considering subsequent amendments to our Constitution, may be expressed as follows:
States population
---------------------------- X SUM TO BE RAISED = STATES SHARE
Total U.S. Population
And keep in mind that each states representation in Congress is likewise determined by population size, the formula being:
State`s Pop.
___________ X House membership (435) = State`s No.of Reps
Pop. of U.S.
In fact, the rule of apportionment was specifically adopted to protect the people of the most productive States from being saddled with carrying the lions share of any general tax laid among the States without also being guaranteed a vote in Congress proportionately equal to their financial contribution!
Keep in mind our progressive crowd gave us the 16th Amendment which they intended to use to circumvent the rule of apportionment as applied to raising a federal revenue. However, their intentions were to keep alive the one man one vote part of our Constitution.
Socialists, progressives, and the friends of big government, especially in pinko states with large populations such as New York, California, Pennsylvania who have enormous voting strength in Congress are great at spending other peoples money and always demand their one man one vote part of the Constitution when it comes to spending from the federal treasury. But when it comes time to fill the national treasury in a general tax among the states they run and hide from the one vote one dollar part of the Constitution, which is also part of the apportionment formula and gave them their one man one vote.
The alleged fair tax, just as progressive income taxation now does, is designed to subjugate the rule of apportionment so that the people of those states who contribute the lions share under the alleged fair tax are not given their constitutionally guaranteed proportionate vote in Congress equal to their financial contribution. And this is what Mike Huckabee, Neal Boortz and Herman Cain hide from their listening audience___ our founding fathers intended rule requiring representation with proportional obligation whenever a general tax is laid among the states to fill the national treasury!
But let our founding fathers speak for themselves with regard to the rule of apportionment.
Pinckney addressing the S.C. ratification convention with regard to the rule of apportionment :
With regard to the general government imposing internal taxes upon us, he contended that it was absolutely necessary they should have such a power: requisitions had been in vain tried every year since the ratification of the old Confederation, and not a single state had paid the quota required of her. The general government could not abuse this power, and favor one state and oppress another, as each state was to be taxed only in proportion to its representation 4 Elliots, S.C., 305-6
And see:
The proportion of taxes are fixed by the number of inhabitants, and not regulated by the extent of the territory, or fertility of soil 3 Elliots, 243,Each state will know, from its population, its proportion of any general tax 3 Elliots, 244 ___ Mr. George Nicholas, during the ratification debates of our Constitution.
Mr. Madison goes on to remark about Congresss general power of taxation that, "they will be limited to fix the proportion of each State, and they must raise it in the most convenient and satisfactory manner to the public."3 Elliot, 255
And Mr. PENDLETON says:
The apportionment of representation and taxation by the same scale is just; it removes the objection, that, while Virginia paid one sixth part of the expenses of the Union, she had no more weight in public counsels than Delaware, which paid but a very small portion3 Elliots 41
What I support is adding the following 32 words to our Constitution which would bring us back to our Constitutions ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as our founders intended it to operate.
The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money
Regards,
JWK
There is no tax on property "which Mary and Joe have in their labor."
Maybe you missed it but when Mary and Joe as I have described them sell the property they have in their labor i.e. painting or cleaning someone’s home, they are required under the “fairtax” to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor, and, before selling the property they have in their labor they must register with government, and also file fairtax returns 12 times a year under the penalty of perjury, simply because they dare to sell the property they have in their labor.
Here are some of the specific fairtax provisions:
`(d) Liability for Tax-
`(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.
`(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER-A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.
`(a) In General- Any person liable to collect and remit taxes pursuant to section 103(a) who is engaged in a trade or business shall register as a seller with the sales tax administering authority administering the taxes imposed by this subtitle.
JWK
It has been well said that
"the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands, and to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property. It is a manifest encroachment upon the just liberty both of the workman and of those who might be disposed to employ him. As it hinders the one from working at what he thinks proper, so it hinders the others from employing whom they think proper." __ See Butchers' Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884) quoting Smith, Wealth of Nations, Bk. I, c. 10.
Ah. I finally understand. You're saying that business selling products and businesses selling services have to register and pay taxes. So instead of income taxes paid quarterly the FairTax levies sales taxes paid monthly.
It doesn't bother me.