Battle Over Remedial Classes for English and Math

[Dr.Traveler]

On a serious topic:

Remedial Math and English is a big deal currently on College campuses everywhere. Remedial Math and English doesn't just cater to students with weak high school backgrounds, but also to those that are returning after time in the work force and looking to get a degree.

Success rates in such courses are historically terrible. And by terrible, I mean really bad. I've talked to colleagues that have experienced 50% DFW (D, F, or Withdraw) rates. I myself had a class of 50 in such a class, straight out of Grad school, that had that very rate. I "lost" 20 students who just withdrew when they figured out they couldn't catch up. I had around 5 fail to get a passing grade. I've known folks that can quote 70% DFW rates.

Not only that, such courses account for an obscene amount of the departmental budget. Many schools offer 20+ sections of such courses a semester tying up valuable manpower and money.

Tightening budgets and a desire to better address student's needs have led to massive "Redesign" movements in many fields. Online homework systems, online classes, modular design, etc have led to substantial turn arounds in the success of these courses for reduced cost to run such courses.

This is of course not a perfect solution for everyone, but it is helping, and yes, at the college level we are trying. You might want to check out the NCAT's Redesign Alliance at NCAT: Increasing Success in Developmental Math Workshop This program addresses remedial courses in Math, English, Science, and even introductory foreign languages.

 

[Polk]

I am not opposed to remedial classes for college students who need additional background to qualify for upper level classes in their discipline. Son Foxfyre took awhile but finally settled on engineering as his chosen discipline, but didn't take some of the requisite advanced math in highschool. So it required some remedial courses to get him up to speed in the math. (He took Calculus 1 three times before finally passing it.) But then he excelled in his math courses and is now a successful and prosperous engineer.

So I'm all for students having the option to choose whatever coursework they need to reach for their dream and as long as they're willing to pay for it, and they aren't depriving any other student of a spot in class, I don't have a problem with them taking as long as it takes.

I also don't have a problem with putting a time limit on subsidized student aid, etc. when a student just isn't cutting it or when the classroom space is needed for more motivated or capable students.

That's my take as well.

 

[Polk]

I graduated in the 70's, when passing an acedemic track in high school was the equivilent of a college degree now.

People often make that claim, but there is little evidence to support it.

 

[chanel]

Two-thirds of all students who enter a community college in New Jersey are placed in at least one remedial or developmental course. Some may take three or four. More than half never graduate.

The cost of that failure is steep. The Alliance for Excellent Education in 2006 calculated the annual cost of community college remediation at $1.4 billion nationally and $45 million in New Jersey. Almost 70 percent of the cost is paid with taxpayer money.

New Jersey’s community colleges are developing a plan to reverse that trend that includes reaching into high schools and even middle schools and rethinking how they teach these students once they get to college.

But they know it’s an uphill battle. Only 15 percent of full-time students graduate within three years, according to data filed with the U.S. Department of Education and the New Jersey Commission on Higher Education.

The lack of preparedness of so many students entering community college — nationally about 60 percent of new students are placed in remedial courses — is considered a primary factor in the poor graduation rates, making remediation a major concern at the nation’s more than 1,100 community colleges and among policy makers.

WATCHDOG REPORT: Taxpayers pay $45 million a year for remedial courses for community college students who mostly don't graduate - pressofAtlanticCity.com

Well intentioned high school counselors and teachers LIE to kids when they tell them anyone can succeed in college. i would never personally discourage a kid to try community college, but I do not believe in lying. Many of these kids are special ed with a fifth grade reading level. A remedial course ain't gonna fix that.

We call our local community college "Grade 13". It's a warehouse for a lot of the lazy , unskilled "unemployables". A waste of taxpayer money; and a deception to the kids who think they will magically be given a marketable skill.

 

[Foxfyre]

Two-thirds of all students who enter a community college in New Jersey are placed in at least one remedial or developmental course. Some may take three or four. More than half never graduate.

The cost of that failure is steep. The Alliance for Excellent Education in 2006 calculated the annual cost of community college remediation at $1.4 billion nationally and $45 million in New Jersey. Almost 70 percent of the cost is paid with taxpayer money.

New Jersey’s community colleges are developing a plan to reverse that trend that includes reaching into high schools and even middle schools and rethinking how they teach these students once they get to college.

But they know it’s an uphill battle. Only 15 percent of full-time students graduate within three years, according to data filed with the U.S. Department of Education and the New Jersey Commission on Higher Education.

The lack of preparedness of so many students entering community college — nationally about 60 percent of new students are placed in remedial courses — is considered a primary factor in the poor graduation rates, making remediation a major concern at the nation’s more than 1,100 community colleges and among policy makers.

WATCHDOG REPORT: Taxpayers pay $45 million a year for remedial courses for community college students who mostly don't graduate - pressofAtlanticCity.com

Well intentioned high school counselors and teachers LIE to kids when they tell them anyone can succeed in college. i would never personally discourage a kid to try community college, but I do not believe in lying. Many of these kids are special ed with a fifth grade reading level. A remedial course ain't gonna fix that.

We call our local community college "Grade 13". It's a warehouse for a lot of the lazy , unskilled "unemployables". A waste of taxpayer money; and a deception to the kids who think they will magically be given a marketable skill.

That is the problem with so many 'big government' programs that just put money into something without demanding value for the people's money spent.

The way I see it, nobody should be able to require others to pay for their incompetence or inabilities. All good scholarship programs require results in order to keep the scholarship. Why should any kid who isn't doing the coursework and making the grade be allowed to stay?

On the other hand, if the kid works and raises the money for another try and it isn't taking anything away from another more deserving student, I say let him try again and again until he or she gets it.

I don't want the government to have the power to decide who will have a chance to succeed and who won't. But neither should public resources be consumed by those who are unwilling to do what it takes to succeed.

 

[chanel]

Well said ff.

For years high school teachers have been told "raise the bar" Consequently, students with limited math skills are being placed in Trig and those with reading problems are expected to tackle Chaucer. "College prep" is not appropriate for all and is in fact a disservice. The teachers know it so they pass the kids along knowing its not their fault. They are not going to magically rise to the challenge, so the bar is then lowered for all. Its an exercise in futility. We must bring back tracking and offer vocational programs. That's the only common sense approach. "You can lead a horse to water.."

 

[Foxfyre]

Well said ff.

For years high school teachers have been told "raise the bar" Consequently, students with limited math skills are being placed in Trig and those with reading problems are expected to tackle Chaucer. "College prep" is not appropriate for all and is in fact a disservice. The teachers know it so they pass the kids along knowing its not their fault. They are not going to magically rise to the challenge, so the bar is then lowered for all. Its an exercise in futility. We must bring back tracking and offer vocational programs. That's the only common sense approach. "You can lead a horse to water.."

This is so true. Everybody needs to learn a marketable trade or trades and be infused with a good work ethic and the American can do spirit. All kids should be encouraged to recognize and utilize their God-given gifts and talents as that is the most certain route to happiness and success. And yes, college is simply not for everybody and it is not an absolute requisite for success.

During my fairly brief stint on a school board and as President of the PTA, I was blessed with the opportunity to help further an innovative self-tracking curriculum at my kids' highschool. Each student started at at the beginner class in each discipline and moved to the next when they mastered the coursework whether it took them two weeks or two years to do that. So sometimes you had sophomores in the same class with seniors depending on the students' interests and skill levels. Of course the counselors did help guide students in what they needed for college prep, but some students gravitated to the basic business courses and hands on skills classes (shop etc.) and began learning trades that way.

The graduation rate at that highschool was heads and shoulders above the other schools using the more traditional one-size fits all class structures. And most of those kids who went on to college did graduate there too. The drop out rate was almost nil though some students just couldn't develop the self discipline necessary and transferred to the more traditional highschool.

But it does take special kids and special teachers to make a system like that work and it probably isn't for everybody.

But one thing I still believe to this day that just because a kid is slower and is having a tougher time 'getting it', I don't want to discourage him so long as he is determined to try. Hubby has a nephew who would have been a brilliant biologist and it is a real tragedy that he dropped out of school. But he had teachers (and parents) who told him there was no point in trying because he couldn't pass the math; this besides the fact that he was brilliant in his science classes. I think had he stayed with it, he would have eventually gotten it.

On the other hand, I am all for bouncing the kids out of class who obviously just don't give a damn.

 

[Polk]

Well said ff.

For years high school teachers have been told "raise the bar" Consequently, students with limited math skills are being placed in Trig and those with reading problems are expected to tackle Chaucer. "College prep" is not appropriate for all and is in fact a disservice. The teachers know it so they pass the kids along knowing its not their fault. They are not going to magically rise to the challenge, so the bar is then lowered for all. Its an exercise in futility. We must bring back tracking and offer vocational programs. That's the only common sense approach. "You can lead a horse to water.."

Absolutely, but increased tracking would also require increased centralization.