Ayn Rand is right. There is no higher state than

[Google]

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Reagan left the Democratic Party because of John F. Kennedy's liberal ideals. Kennedy is the president who proposed Medicare. Reagan opposed Medicare and called it socialism.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
President John F. Kennedy

Yes, but it was ultimately Johnson who signed it into law. And it is a socialist program, Reagan was right.

It was Kennedy who campaigned on Medicare, and proposed it in the Senate.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gu1HyCeEus]JFK Defending Medicare (1960) - YouTube[/ame]


It was Kennedy who proposed Medicare as President.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiyPejGwQQg]JFK addresses Congress about Medicare - YouTube[/ame]

Medicare is NOT socialism. Medicare is a social insurance program. People PAY into it weekly their whole working lives, it is EARNED!

It has degenerated into a unsustainable, easily exploitable, government failure. It was in the sixties, under Democrat leadership, that Congress was first allowed to plunder social security funds on other programs. If that one action had not happened, and social security funds remained untouched we would not be in this situation perhaps.

Reform is desperately needed. JFK sold Medicare, sincerely, not as an entitlement, but as something people must pay into and earn. It is politicians that have stolen from Americans.

 

[Intense]

Are you insane?

By all indications based solely on JFK's words and actions he resembles more of a modern Republican than a Democrat.

"Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government."

John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, president's news conference

Could you imagine a modern Democrat saying such things?

Now, again based solely on policy Nixon far more resembles a modern Democrat than a Republican. He furthered the federal government's authority and set the ground work for the modern federal bureaucries that feed off of the tax payers of this country like a blood lusting parasite.

The EPA was proposed by President Richard Nixon and began operation on December 3, 1970, after Nixon submitted a reorganization plan to Congress and it was ratified by committee hearings in the House and Senate.

United States Environmental Protection Agency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

President Obama ran on lower taxes and lowered them.

Could you imagine a Republican president calling out the president of US Steel?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNhWANkq0Q]President Kennedy calls out the steel companies (1962) - YouTube[/ame]

President John F. Kennedy
State Department Auditorium, Washington, D.C.
Wednesday, April 11, 1962, 3:30 p.m.

Official White House Transcript

THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon. I have several announcements to make.

Simultaneous and identical actions of United States Steel and other leading steel corporations, increasing steel prices by some 6 dollars a ton, constitute a wholly unjustifiable and irresponsible defiance of the public interest.

In this serious hour in our nation's history, when we are confronted with grave crises in Berlin and Southeast Asia, when we are devoting our energies to economic recovery and stability, when we are asking Reservists to leave their homes and families for months on end, and servicemen to risk their lives -- and four were killed in the last two days in Viet Nam -- and asking union members to hold down their wage requests, at a time when restraint and sacrifice are being asked of every citizen, the American people will find it hard, as I do, to accept a situation in which a tiny handful of steel executives whose pursuit of private power and profit exceeds their sense of public responsibility can show such utter contempt for the interests of 185 million Americans.

...a few gigantic corporations have decided to increase prices in ruthless disregard of their public responsibilities.

Some time ago I asked each American to consider what he would do for his country and I asked the steel companies. In the last 24 hours we had their answer.

While Hidden Fee's, Surcharges, and Service Charges, grew. Inflation grew. Bait and Switch.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Nope, JFK was almost as conservative as Reagan. He would in no way be elected today by the Democrat party, he would fit in more as a Republican in this day and age. Why do you ask?

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Reagan left the Democratic Party because of John F. Kennedy's liberal ideals. Kennedy is the president who proposed Medicare. Reagan opposed Medicare and called it socialism.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
President John F. Kennedy

Yes, but it was ultimately Johnson who signed it into law. And it is a socialist program, Reagan was right.

Medicare is not a "socialist program"; the medical professionals who treat medicare recipients are generally not employed by the government. Medicare is a subsidized program which provides health insurance to Americans over the age of 65.

One might argue the VA is a socialized program, do you and other 'conservatives' advocate the elimination of medical care for vets?

 

[Bfgrn]

Yes, but it was ultimately Johnson who signed it into law. And it is a socialist program, Reagan was right.

It was Kennedy who campaigned on Medicare, and proposed it in the Senate.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gu1HyCeEus]JFK Defending Medicare (1960) - YouTube[/ame]


It was Kennedy who proposed Medicare as President.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiyPejGwQQg]JFK addresses Congress about Medicare - YouTube[/ame]

Medicare is NOT socialism. Medicare is a social insurance program. People PAY into it weekly their whole working lives, it is EARNED!

People receiving it without paying into it makes it a socialist program. How exactly is it earned if someone receives it but never paid into it?

Socialism:

any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system

BULLSHIT!

How you become eligible for Social Security

As you work and pay taxes, you earn Social Security “credits.” In 2011, you earn one credit for each $1,120 in earnings—up to a maximum of four credits per year. (The amount of money needed to earn one credit usually goes up every year.)

Most people need 40 credits (10 years of work) to qualify for benefits. Younger people need fewer credits to be eligible for disability benefits or for family members to be eligible for survivors benefits when the worker dies.


FACTS

Fact - Social Security is entirely solvent and will pay full benefits at least through 2042. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through 2052 with no changes whatsoever.

Fact - The Social Security trust fund has accumulated a surplus of more than $1.5 trillion. That occurred because the fund collected more in payroll taxes from our paychecks than it paid out in benefit checks.

Fact - 48 million Americans now receive monthly Social Security checks. Of those, 38% are the disabled, and widows and their children. The remainder are retirees. More than 5 million children receive part of their family income from Social Security.

Fact - The current US Social Security program is a model of financial efficiency both for the government and for banks and businesses, in that 99% of all payroll taxes paid into the trust fund are paid out as benefits. Administrative overhead to run the program is only 1% of all monies paid in by us.

Fact - In 2018 at earliest, monthly benefit checks sent out will be higher than the monthly payroll taxes collected by the Social Security trust fund. However, the surplus will keep growing until 2028 because of the interest that the Social Security trust fund earns in US Treasury Bonds.

Fact - If nothing at all is done to “reform” social security, it will still be able to pay 70% of full benefits after 2042, at worst case.

Fact - In 75 years at the earliest, if nothing at all is done to reform Social Security, it could run a deficit of up to $3.7 trillion. Not $10 trillion.

Fact - Payroll taxes (called FICA) are now withheld from US workers' paychecks on the first $97,000 of their annual incomes. That means that if a person earns $400,000 a year, he pays exactly the same FICA as the person who earns $97,000 a year. (This is called a payroll tax cap, because it's capped at $97,000.)

Fact - If the payroll tax cap was raised to $200,000 per year, there would be NO Social Security funding gap for more than 100 years.

The real truth is that conservatives have historically detested and attempted to undermine Social Security since Franklin Roosevelt established it in the dark days of the Depression. Conservatives derided it then, and they do now, as an entitlement, akin to welfare. They forget that Americans PAY for their benefits.

 

[grunt11b]

People receiving it without paying into it makes it a socialist program. How exactly is it earned if someone receives it but never paid into it?

Socialism:

any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system

That's not socialism..that's charity.

So what your against is government charity.

It's not charity if it is forcefully taken out of my check and given to someone else. And I say forcefully because by law we have to pay taxes. Charity would be if I donated that money for that cause at my own free will, which I clearly did not do.

 

[grunt11b]

Which in a binary world probably holds true.

But in real life people are much more complex and diverse. Some conversatives hold very liberal views..for example, George W. Bush..was colorblind when it came to people.

Some liberals hold some very conservative views..like Johnson..who thought that all communists were alike and their governments needed to be wiped out through force of arms.

Nature of the beast.

Jesus Christ, I wouldn't think I would ever hear a liberal say those words. What happened to the whole 'Katrina was a orchestrated attempt to murder black people by the Bush administration'? Also, true colorblindness is a conservative principle, but let's not get too side tracked here.

I was just stating, which apparently we are in agreement, that based solely on policy the modern Democrat party would scorn and run out JFK.

When the heck did you ever see me post anything about Bush like that?

I hold that it was grossly incompetent. And never once have I said Bush was evil or unpatriotic. Cheney on the other hand..

In that situation the response would begin at the local level, not the federal level. The counties would star taking care of business, then if they needed help it would move to the state level and so on up to the federal level. That takes time.
Now if we are talking BP oil spill, that directly falls into federal jurisdiction that far off the coast, and it took Obama 3 weeks to respond, now that is either incompetence or he needed it to be as bad as it was in order to gain support for a drilling moratorium.

 

[Wry Catcher]

It was Kennedy who campaigned on Medicare, and proposed it in the Senate.

JFK Defending Medicare (1960) - YouTube


It was Kennedy who proposed Medicare as President.

JFK addresses Congress about Medicare - YouTube

Medicare is NOT socialism. Medicare is a social insurance program. People PAY into it weekly their whole working lives, it is EARNED!

People receiving it without paying into it makes it a socialist program. How exactly is it earned if someone receives it but never paid into it?

Socialism:

any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system

BULLSHIT!

How you become eligible for Social Security

As you work and pay taxes, you earn Social Security “credits.” In 2011, you earn one credit for each $1,120 in earnings—up to a maximum of four credits per year. (The amount of money needed to earn one credit usually goes up every year.)

Most people need 40 credits (10 years of work) to qualify for benefits. Younger people need fewer credits to be eligible for disability benefits or for family members to be eligible for survivors benefits when the worker dies.


FACTS

Fact - Social Security is entirely solvent and will pay full benefits at least through 2042. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through 2052 with no changes whatsoever.

Fact - The Social Security trust fund has accumulated a surplus of more than $1.5 trillion. That occurred because the fund collected more in payroll taxes from our paychecks than it paid out in benefit checks.

Fact - 48 million Americans now receive monthly Social Security checks. Of those, 38% are the disabled, and widows and their children. The remainder are retirees. More than 5 million children receive part of their family income from Social Security.

Fact - The current US Social Security program is a model of financial efficiency both for the government and for banks and businesses, in that 99% of all payroll taxes paid into the trust fund are paid out as benefits. Administrative overhead to run the program is only 1% of all monies paid in by us.

Fact - In 2018 at earliest, monthly benefit checks sent out will be higher than the monthly payroll taxes collected by the Social Security trust fund. However, the surplus will keep growing until 2028 because of the interest that the Social Security trust fund earns in US Treasury Bonds.

Fact - If nothing at all is done to “reform” social security, it will still be able to pay 70% of full benefits after 2042, at worst case.

Fact - In 75 years at the earliest, if nothing at all is done to reform Social Security, it could run a deficit of up to $3.7 trillion. Not $10 trillion.

Fact - Payroll taxes (called FICA) are now withheld from US workers' paychecks on the first $97,000 of their annual incomes. That means that if a person earns $400,000 a year, he pays exactly the same FICA as the person who earns $97,000 a year. (This is called a payroll tax cap, because it's capped at $97,000.)

Fact - If the payroll tax cap was raised to $200,000 per year, there would be NO Social Security funding gap for more than 100 years.

Clear, concise and quite likely to elicite a number of Red Herrings from the New Right. I believe your argument would benefit this message board if posted as a new thread. Thanks for providing facts in place of the fiction so often offered by the callous conservatives.

 

[grunt11b]

Are you insane?

By all indications based solely on JFK's words and actions he resembles more of a modern Republican than a Democrat.

Really? JFK, the President who:

• Pushed for fiscal stimulus (including extension of jobless benefits and an increase in the minimum wage)
• Provided federal employees with collective bargaining rights via executive order and expanded the Fair Labor Standards Act
• Increased funding for student loans and school lunches, and piloted the original food stamp program
• Converted ADC to AFDC, expanding welfare benefits to adults
• Came out strongly for urban renewal and a comprehensive plan for supporting affordable housing
• Pushed for diversity in federal hiring and created the Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity
• Pushed the original Medicare bill
• Expanded the Clean Air Act

That's the agenda of the modern Republican?

It was Kennedy who campaigned on Medicare, and proposed it in the Senate.

JFK Defending Medicare (1960) - YouTube


It was Kennedy who proposed Medicare as President.

JFK addresses Congress about Medicare - YouTube

Medicare is NOT socialism. Medicare is a social insurance program. People PAY into it weekly their whole working lives, it is EARNED!

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You mean Kennedy, the guy who was pressing hard for Medicare in the early 1960s, is not ideologically akin--as was suggested in this thread--to Reagan, the guy who was was busy attacking the idea as socialism and the end of American freedom as part of Operation Coffee Cup?

You just blew my mind.

He would not be electable today by the Democrat party, because in their minds it just doesn't go afar enough. And his tax policy alone goes against everything the Dems are trying to do now.

 

[grunt11b]

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Reagan left the Democratic Party because of John F. Kennedy's liberal ideals. Kennedy is the president who proposed Medicare. Reagan opposed Medicare and called it socialism.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
President John F. Kennedy

Yes, but it was ultimately Johnson who signed it into law. And it is a socialist program, Reagan was right.

Medicare is not a "socialist program"; the medical professionals who treat medicare recipients are generally not employed by the government. Medicare is a subsidized program which provides health insurance to Americans over the age of 65.

If they take money from your check for medicare, to give to some 65 year old who never worked or paid taxes in their life.....that is socialist. There is no argument here, it is a fact.

One might argue the VA is a socialized program, do you and other 'conservatives' advocate the elimination of medical care for vets?

Being a veteran I can attest that veterans have earned that service, it was a promise made in contract when they signed the dotted line to serve the country. And trust me, the VA hospital is no walk in the park either, it sucks just as bad as anything else the government runs.

 

[Sallow]

People receiving it without paying into it makes it a socialist program. How exactly is it earned if someone receives it but never paid into it?

Socialism:

any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system

That's not socialism..that's charity.

So what your against is government charity.

It's not charity if it is forcefully taken out of my check and given to someone else. And I say forcefully because by law we have to pay taxes. Charity would be if I donated that money for that cause at my own free will, which I clearly did not do.

Well here's the deal. Our present form of economics almost guarantees a certain portion of the population are going to be unemployed. And really..there are some people are are completely unemployable. We live in the richest nation on earth. There's no logical argument for not making sure they are provided for..

 

[Sallow]

Jesus Christ, I wouldn't think I would ever hear a liberal say those words. What happened to the whole 'Katrina was a orchestrated attempt to murder black people by the Bush administration'? Also, true colorblindness is a conservative principle, but let's not get too side tracked here.

I was just stating, which apparently we are in agreement, that based solely on policy the modern Democrat party would scorn and run out JFK.

When the heck did you ever see me post anything about Bush like that?

I hold that it was grossly incompetent. And never once have I said Bush was evil or unpatriotic. Cheney on the other hand..

In that situation the response would begin at the local level, not the federal level. The counties would star taking care of business, then if they needed help it would move to the state level and so on up to the federal level. That takes time.
Now if we are talking BP oil spill, that directly falls into federal jurisdiction that far off the coast, and it took Obama 3 weeks to respond, now that is either incompetence or he needed it to be as bad as it was in order to gain support for a drilling moratorium.

President Obama responded immediately. He just didn't do a dog and pony show for the groundlings. The oil spill was handled very well considering it's complexity. And tax payers were off the hook for the check.

 

[Sallow]

Yes, but it was ultimately Johnson who signed it into law. And it is a socialist program, Reagan was right.

If they take money from your check for medicare, to give to some 65 year old who never worked or paid taxes in their life.....that is socialist. There is no argument here, it is a fact.

One might argue the VA is a socialized program, do you and other 'conservatives' advocate the elimination of medical care for vets?

Being a veteran I can attest that veterans have earned that service, it was a promise made in contract when they signed the dotted line to serve the country. And trust me, the VA hospital is no walk in the park either, it sucks just as bad as anything else the government runs.

Earned or not...it's still socialism.

 

[grunt11b]

It was Kennedy who campaigned on Medicare, and proposed it in the Senate.

JFK Defending Medicare (1960) - YouTube


It was Kennedy who proposed Medicare as President.

JFK addresses Congress about Medicare - YouTube

Medicare is NOT socialism. Medicare is a social insurance program. People PAY into it weekly their whole working lives, it is EARNED!

People receiving it without paying into it makes it a socialist program. How exactly is it earned if someone receives it but never paid into it?

Socialism:

any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system

BULLSHIT!

How you become eligible for Social Security

As you work and pay taxes, you earn Social Security “credits.” In 2011, you earn one credit for each $1,120 in earnings—up to a maximum of four credits per year. (The amount of money needed to earn one credit usually goes up every year.)

Most people need 40 credits (10 years of work) to qualify for benefits. Younger people need fewer credits to be eligible for disability benefits or for family members to be eligible for survivors benefits when the worker dies.

Key words here being "As you work", if someone has not worked but are still receiving the benefits, it's still a socialist program. End of story.
FACTS

Fact - Social Security is entirely solvent and will pay full benefits at least through 2042. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through 2052 with no changes whatsoever.

I'll believe it when I see it, even the president himself said it was in trouble.

Fact - The Social Security trust fund has accumulated a surplus of more than $1.5 trillion. That occurred because the fund collected more in payroll taxes from our paychecks than it paid out in benefit checks.

Another lie.

Fact - 48 million Americans now receive monthly Social Security checks. Of those, 38% are the disabled, and widows and their children. The remainder are retirees. More than 5 million children receive part of their family income from Social Security.

Noones arguing that point.

Fact - The current US Social Security program is a model of financial efficiency both for the government and for banks and businesses, in that 99% of all payroll taxes paid into the trust fund are paid out as benefits. Administrative overhead to run the program is only 1% of all monies paid in by us.

More bullshit rhetoric.

Fact - In 2018 at earliest, monthly benefit checks sent out will be higher than the monthly payroll taxes collected by the Social Security trust fund. However, the surplus will keep growing until 2028 because of the interest that the Social Security trust fund earns in US Treasury Bonds.

There is no surplus, politicians for the last 10 years have openly admitted that SS is in the red. How do they have a surplus of 1.5 trillion but are in the red right now? More bullshit lies.
Social Security in the red this year - Washington Times

Fact - If nothing at all is done to “reform” social security, it will still be able to pay 70% of full benefits after 2042, at worst case.

Bullshit. You're full of it today aren't you?
Fact - In 75 years at the earliest, if nothing at all is done to reform Social Security, it could run a deficit of up to $3.7 trillion. Not $10 trillion.

Fact - Payroll taxes (called FICA) are now withheld from US workers' paychecks on the first $97,000 of their annual incomes. That means that if a person earns $400,000 a year, he pays exactly the same FICA as the person who earns $97,000 a year. (This is called a payroll tax cap, because it's capped at $97,000.)

Fact - If the payroll tax cap was raised to $200,000 per year, there would be NO Social Security funding gap for more than 100 years.

The real truth is that conservatives have historically detested and attempted to undermine Social Security since Franklin Roosevelt established it in the dark days of the Depression. Conservatives derided it then, and they do now, as an entitlement, akin to welfare. They forget that Americans PAY for their benefits.

The real truth is, you're not paying much attention to reality.

 

[grunt11b]

People receiving it without paying into it makes it a socialist program. How exactly is it earned if someone receives it but never paid into it?

Socialism:

any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system

BULLSHIT!

How you become eligible for Social Security

As you work and pay taxes, you earn Social Security “credits.” In 2011, you earn one credit for each $1,120 in earnings—up to a maximum of four credits per year. (The amount of money needed to earn one credit usually goes up every year.)

Most people need 40 credits (10 years of work) to qualify for benefits. Younger people need fewer credits to be eligible for disability benefits or for family members to be eligible for survivors benefits when the worker dies.


FACTS

Fact - Social Security is entirely solvent and will pay full benefits at least through 2042. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects that Social Security can pay all benefits through 2052 with no changes whatsoever.

Fact - The Social Security trust fund has accumulated a surplus of more than $1.5 trillion. That occurred because the fund collected more in payroll taxes from our paychecks than it paid out in benefit checks.

Fact - 48 million Americans now receive monthly Social Security checks. Of those, 38% are the disabled, and widows and their children. The remainder are retirees. More than 5 million children receive part of their family income from Social Security.

Fact - The current US Social Security program is a model of financial efficiency both for the government and for banks and businesses, in that 99% of all payroll taxes paid into the trust fund are paid out as benefits. Administrative overhead to run the program is only 1% of all monies paid in by us.

Fact - In 2018 at earliest, monthly benefit checks sent out will be higher than the monthly payroll taxes collected by the Social Security trust fund. However, the surplus will keep growing until 2028 because of the interest that the Social Security trust fund earns in US Treasury Bonds.

Fact - If nothing at all is done to “reform” social security, it will still be able to pay 70% of full benefits after 2042, at worst case.

Fact - In 75 years at the earliest, if nothing at all is done to reform Social Security, it could run a deficit of up to $3.7 trillion. Not $10 trillion.

Fact - Payroll taxes (called FICA) are now withheld from US workers' paychecks on the first $97,000 of their annual incomes. That means that if a person earns $400,000 a year, he pays exactly the same FICA as the person who earns $97,000 a year. (This is called a payroll tax cap, because it's capped at $97,000.)

Fact - If the payroll tax cap was raised to $200,000 per year, there would be NO Social Security funding gap for more than 100 years.

Clear, concise and quite likely to elicite a number of Red Herrings from the New Right. I believe your argument would benefit this message board if posted as a new thread. Thanks for providing facts in place of the fiction so often offered by the callous conservatives.

You mean to tell him thank you for telling you what you wanted to hear.

 

[grunt11b]

That's not socialism..that's charity.

So what your against is government charity.

It's not charity if it is forcefully taken out of my check and given to someone else. And I say forcefully because by law we have to pay taxes. Charity would be if I donated that money for that cause at my own free will, which I clearly did not do.

Well here's the deal. Our present form of economics almost guarantees a certain portion of the population are going to be unemployed. And really..there are some people are are completely unemployable. We live in the richest nation on earth. There's no logical argument for not making sure they are provided for..

I understand what you are saying, but there is a logical argument, no man is entitled to another mans labor or property. Now I agree that we should do what we can to help each other, but not at the tip of a roman spear.

 

[Sallow]

There is no surplus, politicians for the last 10 years have openly admitted that SS is in the red. How do they have a surplus of 1.5 trillion but are in the red right now? More bullshit lies.
Social Security in the red this year - Washington Times

The Bush administration got ALOT of numbers wrong.

You do remember they were trying to shovel the money into the stock market..don't ya?

 

[Sallow]

It's not charity if it is forcefully taken out of my check and given to someone else. And I say forcefully because by law we have to pay taxes. Charity would be if I donated that money for that cause at my own free will, which I clearly did not do.

Well here's the deal. Our present form of economics almost guarantees a certain portion of the population are going to be unemployed. And really..there are some people are are completely unemployable. We live in the richest nation on earth. There's no logical argument for not making sure they are provided for..

I understand what you are saying, but there is a logical argument, no man is entitled to another mans labor or property. Now I agree that we should do what we can to help each other, but not at the tip of a roman spear.

So, how, exactly do you make up for 2 centuries of slavery?

 

[grunt11b]

If they take money from your check for medicare, to give to some 65 year old who never worked or paid taxes in their life.....that is socialist. There is no argument here, it is a fact.

Being a veteran I can attest that veterans have earned that service, it was a promise made in contract when they signed the dotted line to serve the country. And trust me, the VA hospital is no walk in the park either, it sucks just as bad as anything else the government runs.

Earned or not...it's still socialism.

I agree 100%. But at least they worked for and earned it, unlike some on Social Security and other entitlement programs.

 

[grunt11b]

Well here's the deal. Our present form of economics almost guarantees a certain portion of the population are going to be unemployed. And really..there are some people are are completely unemployable. We live in the richest nation on earth. There's no logical argument for not making sure they are provided for..

I understand what you are saying, but there is a logical argument, no man is entitled to another mans labor or property. Now I agree that we should do what we can to help each other, but not at the tip of a roman spear.

So, how, exactly do you make up for 2 centuries of slavery?

I dont, I dont own any slaves nor have I ever. And in all fairness, black people where not citizens at the time, does it make it right? Of course not, but it is what it is.

 

[Intense]

Technically, EITC is available only to immigrant workers who obtain legal work status. But the law allows immigrants to claim EITC for up to three years prior to obtaining that status. Workers simply file a tax return for the years in which they were not legally eligible to work in the U.S.! The most widespread abuse stems from the requirement that children live with the worker for more than six months of the year. IRS does little to verify the claim. Many immigrants claim non-existent children, or claim children who they've left behind with relatives. The IRS is just now using a database from the Federal Case Registry of Child Support Orders to identify erroneous claims. Few immigrants will be covered by that device. Steve Camarota of the Center for Immigration Studies examined the usage by Mexican immigrants of EITC and other welfare programs in a report issued in July 2001. Despite welfare reforms aimed at reducing immigrant usage, most immigrants continue to be eligible because the changes primarily affect new arrivals. Also, in many cases state governments have chosen to provide benefits to otherwise ineligible immigrants. Therefore, changes made by Congress did not have the effect on long-term welfare use by Mexican immigrants that policymakers may have thought. Camarota's data show that immigrants in general, and Mexican households in particular, use every major means-tested program at higher rates than natives. While use of Supplemental Security Income (SSI) by Mexican households is only slightly higher than that of natives, their use of TANF/general assistance, food stamps, and Medicaid, is dramatically higher than households headed by natives. All of these programs are very large in size. In 1999, more than $300 billion was spent on the means-tested programs. While immigrants use welfare programs at higher rates than natives do, their use of the EITC is substantially higher than that of natives. With an annual cost of $32 billion, the EITC is the nation's largest means-tested cash assistance programs for workers with low incomes. Persons receiving the EITC pay no federal income tax and instead receive cash assistance from the government based on their earnings and family size. The percentages for the EITC above almost certainly overstate its use by both immigrants and natives, because unlike the other programs listed in the table, the Census Bureau assigns use of the credit to respondents based on their income and family characteristics, not based on their response to a specific question on the survey. All persons who file a return and are eligible for EITC should receive the EITC because the IRS will process it automatically if you qualify. However, persons whose employment is not reported to the IRS (i.e. they work off the books) or who do not file an income tax return will not receive the credit. Research indicates that in most years roughly 85 percent of those eligible for the EITC do, in fact, receive it. Moreover, immigrants receive larger average benefit payments than natives. For EITC, average payment amounts in 1999 were as follows Natives, $1,456; all immigrants, $1,693; Mexican immigrants, $1,887. This is because EITC payments, like payments for public assistance and food stamps, typically reflect the number of people in the households. Because immigrant households are larger on average (primarily because of higher fertility), the size of their average payment is also larger. EITC and Illegal Immigrants Not surprisingly, the use of means-tested welfare programs is more common among legal immigrants than illegals. But whether legal or illegal, immigrants make heavy use of welfare payments. Camarota's data show, for example, that 55.3 percent of legal Mexican immigrants receive EITC payments versus 39.4 percent of illegal Mexican immigrants. Illegal immigrants from Mexico primarily receive welfare benefits on behalf of their American-born children. Camarota writes "Use of means-tested programs by illegal immigrants from Mexico points to a fundamental problem that would almost certainly exist with any guestworker program. Even if guestworkers are made technically ineligible for means-tested programs, it seems almost certain that they would make use of them anyway by receiving benefits on behalf of their native-born children.

The Social Contract - Immigrants and the Earned Income Tax Credit