Attack in Nice, France

[Coyote]

MENTAL ILLNESS

By David Vance On August 7th, 2016 at 9:51 am


Let’s cut to the chase. Many people struggle with mental illness yet have constructive and happy lives. They cope with it, they get on with it. We can all admire their fortitude and endeavour. However we now face a situation across the West where every time we witness an obvious act of terror by radical Islamists the authorities and media trot out the “suffering from mental illness” line, even as the culprits shout Allahu Akbar. This is SUCH an insult to those who suffer genuine mental illness in my book.

Now we COULD argue that to be an Islamist IS a form of mental illness but that’s not the media game. They are seeking to sanitise evil acts lest we come to the conclusion that there is a REAL danger amongst it and it’s called Islam.

I covered the jihad knife terror a few days ago. The Police were INSISTENT that this was a case of “mental illness” and that the killer, Zakaria Bulhan, had NO terror connections. This was repeated by an obliging media and the case was effectively reduced to one of street crime.

Except it wasn’t that simple.

In the past few days, on the social networks, the following facts have been revealed.

Heat Street has found evidence that a person using the same name – Zakaria Bulhan – has listed at least one book advocating violent jihadism in their personal account on the Good Reads website since 2014.

Update: An exhaustive search of UK records by Heat Street shows there appears to be only one person in the whole of Britain with the name Zakaria Bulhan. He is registered as living at an address in Tooting, South London.

It is a near-certainty that this is the same person arrested by police and said to have “no links” to terrorism, but merely to be mentally ill.

Between January 2014 and September 2015, Zakaria Bulhan flagged up on Good Reads three books on Islam and Islamist theology as texts they intended to read. The most interesting, and the one that shows that at the age of 17 this person was at the very least exploring a book which is very clear on urging violent jihadism as a duty of Muslims, is Riyad-us-Saliheen, a 13th century text.

Meanwhile, in Belgium, this…

A crazed man hacked at a policewoman’s face with a machete and shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ before turning on another officer just seconds before a third cop shot him dead in a suspected terror attack.

One can argue that these demented people DO suffer from mental illness. One can argue that they are being manipulated by others to carry out such acts. But one cannot distance them from the fact they carry out their terrorism in the name of Islam. It is Jihad and trying to redefine it is cowardly.

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

Because that is what the muslim themsevles claim, as a means of excusing the attacks. They have learnt to make such claims so the sympathy goes away from their victims and towards the attackers. They will claim it is because of PTSD due to them living in palestine or syria

Our own soldiers have come home suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injuries incurred from surviving close blasts. Some have acted out violently. Are you saying that does not happen with civilians in similar settings?

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

David Vance is a regular contributer to The Big Question on BBC TV, Sunday mornings.

What was hateful about his article? I don't like discrediting tactics.

I like to know what's behind a writer or source.

As to what is "hateful" - mostly, it's what I already wrote - the sudden claim that when it comes a violent act by someone who happens to be Muslim, mental illness is now automatically ruled out by you folks. It makes no sense since it is clearly behind certain violent acts by non-Muslims. A Muslim can be psychotic, delusional, hearing voices, claiming God is telling him to do this, authorities can state that there are "significant mental health issues" (as in a recent case) and you will deny mental illness is a factor in that case solely on the basis of that person's religion. I like things to make sense, that does not. It's not like folks are attributing every violent act to mental illness.

wrong again----"mental illness as a factor" is absolutely not
even close to mental illness as a cause. Mental illness
is VERY VERY prevalent in the human population----most
crime is not CAUSED by mental illness. Al Capone had
neurosyphilis----want to blame his life of crime on that illness?

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

MENTAL ILLNESS

By David Vance On August 7th, 2016 at 9:51 am


Let’s cut to the chase. Many people struggle with mental illness yet have constructive and happy lives. They cope with it, they get on with it. We can all admire their fortitude and endeavour. However we now face a situation across the West where every time we witness an obvious act of terror by radical Islamists the authorities and media trot out the “suffering from mental illness” line, even as the culprits shout Allahu Akbar. This is SUCH an insult to those who suffer genuine mental illness in my book.

Now we COULD argue that to be an Islamist IS a form of mental illness but that’s not the media game. They are seeking to sanitise evil acts lest we come to the conclusion that there is a REAL danger amongst it and it’s called Islam.

I covered the jihad knife terror a few days ago. The Police were INSISTENT that this was a case of “mental illness” and that the killer, Zakaria Bulhan, had NO terror connections. This was repeated by an obliging media and the case was effectively reduced to one of street crime.

Except it wasn’t that simple.

In the past few days, on the social networks, the following facts have been revealed.

Heat Street has found evidence that a person using the same name – Zakaria Bulhan – has listed at least one book advocating violent jihadism in their personal account on the Good Reads website since 2014.

Update: An exhaustive search of UK records by Heat Street shows there appears to be only one person in the whole of Britain with the name Zakaria Bulhan. He is registered as living at an address in Tooting, South London.

It is a near-certainty that this is the same person arrested by police and said to have “no links” to terrorism, but merely to be mentally ill.

Between January 2014 and September 2015, Zakaria Bulhan flagged up on Good Reads three books on Islam and Islamist theology as texts they intended to read. The most interesting, and the one that shows that at the age of 17 this person was at the very least exploring a book which is very clear on urging violent jihadism as a duty of Muslims, is Riyad-us-Saliheen, a 13th century text.

Meanwhile, in Belgium, this…

A crazed man hacked at a policewoman’s face with a machete and shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ before turning on another officer just seconds before a third cop shot him dead in a suspected terror attack.

One can argue that these demented people DO suffer from mental illness. One can argue that they are being manipulated by others to carry out such acts. But one cannot distance them from the fact they carry out their terrorism in the name of Islam. It is Jihad and trying to redefine it is cowardly.

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

Because that is what the muslim themsevles claim, as a means of excusing the attacks. They have learnt to make such claims so the sympathy goes away from their victims and towards the attackers. They will claim it is because of PTSD due to them living in palestine or syria

Our own soldiers have come home suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injuries incurred from surviving close blasts. Some have acted out violently. Are you saying that does not happen with civilians in similar settings?

This is another scandal, this hasn't changed for 100 years, when PTSD used to be called Shell Shock, and they often were just shot on the spot by their own team.

The ones suffering from PTSD now are only marginally treated better than those who came home many decades ago.

 

[Coyote]

I like to know what's behind a writer or source.

As to what is "hateful" - mostly, it's what I already wrote - the sudden claim that when it comes a violent act by someone who happens to be Muslim, mental illness is now automatically ruled out by you folks. It makes no sense since it is clearly behind certain violent acts by non-Muslims. A Muslim can be psychotic, delusional, hearing voices, claiming God is telling him to do this, authorities can state that there are "significant mental health issues" (as in a recent case) and you will deny mental illness is a factor in that case solely on the basis of that person's religion. I like things to make sense, that does not. It's not like folks are attributing every violent act to mental illness.

wrong again----"mental illness as a factor" is absolutely not
even close to mental illness as a cause. Mental illness
is VERY VERY prevalent in the human population----most
crime is not CAUSED by mental illness. Al Capone had
neurosyphilis----want to blame his life of crime on that illness?

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

 

[Coyote]

MENTAL ILLNESS

By David Vance On August 7th, 2016 at 9:51 am


Let’s cut to the chase. Many people struggle with mental illness yet have constructive and happy lives. They cope with it, they get on with it. We can all admire their fortitude and endeavour. However we now face a situation across the West where every time we witness an obvious act of terror by radical Islamists the authorities and media trot out the “suffering from mental illness” line, even as the culprits shout Allahu Akbar. This is SUCH an insult to those who suffer genuine mental illness in my book.

Now we COULD argue that to be an Islamist IS a form of mental illness but that’s not the media game. They are seeking to sanitise evil acts lest we come to the conclusion that there is a REAL danger amongst it and it’s called Islam.

I covered the jihad knife terror a few days ago. The Police were INSISTENT that this was a case of “mental illness” and that the killer, Zakaria Bulhan, had NO terror connections. This was repeated by an obliging media and the case was effectively reduced to one of street crime.

Except it wasn’t that simple.

In the past few days, on the social networks, the following facts have been revealed.

Heat Street has found evidence that a person using the same name – Zakaria Bulhan – has listed at least one book advocating violent jihadism in their personal account on the Good Reads website since 2014.

Update: An exhaustive search of UK records by Heat Street shows there appears to be only one person in the whole of Britain with the name Zakaria Bulhan. He is registered as living at an address in Tooting, South London.

It is a near-certainty that this is the same person arrested by police and said to have “no links” to terrorism, but merely to be mentally ill.

Between January 2014 and September 2015, Zakaria Bulhan flagged up on Good Reads three books on Islam and Islamist theology as texts they intended to read. The most interesting, and the one that shows that at the age of 17 this person was at the very least exploring a book which is very clear on urging violent jihadism as a duty of Muslims, is Riyad-us-Saliheen, a 13th century text.

Meanwhile, in Belgium, this…

A crazed man hacked at a policewoman’s face with a machete and shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ before turning on another officer just seconds before a third cop shot him dead in a suspected terror attack.

One can argue that these demented people DO suffer from mental illness. One can argue that they are being manipulated by others to carry out such acts. But one cannot distance them from the fact they carry out their terrorism in the name of Islam. It is Jihad and trying to redefine it is cowardly.

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

Because that is what the muslim themsevles claim, as a means of excusing the attacks. They have learnt to make such claims so the sympathy goes away from their victims and towards the attackers. They will claim it is because of PTSD due to them living in palestine or syria

Our own soldiers have come home suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injuries incurred from surviving close blasts. Some have acted out violently. Are you saying that does not happen with civilians in similar settings?

This is another scandal, this hasn't changed for 100 years, when PTSD used to be called Shell Shock, and they often were just shot on the spot by their own team.

The ones suffering from PTSD now are only marginally treated better than those who came many decades ago.

There's been a lot of research into it and traumatic brain injuries recently because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. There was also an expose on how the military was refusing to acknowledge or diagnose it, so they weren't getting treated.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

wrong again----"mental illness as a factor" is absolutely not
even close to mental illness as a cause. Mental illness
is VERY VERY prevalent in the human population----most
crime is not CAUSED by mental illness. Al Capone had
neurosyphilis----want to blame his life of crime on that illness?

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

Well yes we can agree on this.

The issue is, if you have 200,000 creatures such as ISIS, or Al-Nusra, or Islamic Jihad, or even further back with the Tamil Tigers who created the first individual suicide bombers, one can't say such a huge grouping of people for a "religious" cause are ALL suffering from mental illness.

 

[irosie91]

MENTAL ILLNESS

By David Vance On August 7th, 2016 at 9:51 am


Let’s cut to the chase. Many people struggle with mental illness yet have constructive and happy lives. They cope with it, they get on with it. We can all admire their fortitude and endeavour. However we now face a situation across the West where every time we witness an obvious act of terror by radical Islamists the authorities and media trot out the “suffering from mental illness” line, even as the culprits shout Allahu Akbar. This is SUCH an insult to those who suffer genuine mental illness in my book.

Now we COULD argue that to be an Islamist IS a form of mental illness but that’s not the media game. They are seeking to sanitise evil acts lest we come to the conclusion that there is a REAL danger amongst it and it’s called Islam.

I covered the jihad knife terror a few days ago. The Police were INSISTENT that this was a case of “mental illness” and that the killer, Zakaria Bulhan, had NO terror connections. This was repeated by an obliging media and the case was effectively reduced to one of street crime.

Except it wasn’t that simple.

In the past few days, on the social networks, the following facts have been revealed.

Heat Street has found evidence that a person using the same name – Zakaria Bulhan – has listed at least one book advocating violent jihadism in their personal account on the Good Reads website since 2014.

Update: An exhaustive search of UK records by Heat Street shows there appears to be only one person in the whole of Britain with the name Zakaria Bulhan. He is registered as living at an address in Tooting, South London.

It is a near-certainty that this is the same person arrested by police and said to have “no links” to terrorism, but merely to be mentally ill.

Between January 2014 and September 2015, Zakaria Bulhan flagged up on Good Reads three books on Islam and Islamist theology as texts they intended to read. The most interesting, and the one that shows that at the age of 17 this person was at the very least exploring a book which is very clear on urging violent jihadism as a duty of Muslims, is Riyad-us-Saliheen, a 13th century text.

Meanwhile, in Belgium, this…

A crazed man hacked at a policewoman’s face with a machete and shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ before turning on another officer just seconds before a third cop shot him dead in a suspected terror attack.

One can argue that these demented people DO suffer from mental illness. One can argue that they are being manipulated by others to carry out such acts. But one cannot distance them from the fact they carry out their terrorism in the name of Islam. It is Jihad and trying to redefine it is cowardly.

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

David Vance is a regular contributer to The Big Question on BBC TV, Sunday mornings.

What was hateful about his article? I don't like discrediting tactics.

I like to know what's behind a writer or source.

As to what is "hateful" - mostly, it's what I already wrote - the sudden claim that when it comes a violent act by someone who happens to be Muslim, mental illness is now automatically ruled out by you folks. It makes no sense since it is clearly behind certain violent acts by non-Muslims. A Muslim can be psychotic, delusional, hearing voices, claiming God is telling him to do this, authorities can state that there are "significant mental health issues" (as in a recent case) and you will deny mental illness is a factor in that case solely on the basis of that person's religion. I like things to make sense, that does not. It's not like folks are attributing every violent act to mental illness.

wrong again----"mental illness as a factor" is absolutely not
even close to mental illness as a cause. Mental illness
is VERY VERY prevalent in the human population----most
crime is not CAUSED by mental illness. Al Capone had
neurosyphilis----want to blame his life of crime on that illness?

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

thru thick and thin, thru alcohol and heroin----thru senile plaques and viral infection-----PERSONALITY DON'T CHANGE

 

[irosie91]

MENTAL ILLNESS

By David Vance On August 7th, 2016 at 9:51 am


Let’s cut to the chase. Many people struggle with mental illness yet have constructive and happy lives. They cope with it, they get on with it. We can all admire their fortitude and endeavour. However we now face a situation across the West where every time we witness an obvious act of terror by radical Islamists the authorities and media trot out the “suffering from mental illness” line, even as the culprits shout Allahu Akbar. This is SUCH an insult to those who suffer genuine mental illness in my book.

Now we COULD argue that to be an Islamist IS a form of mental illness but that’s not the media game. They are seeking to sanitise evil acts lest we come to the conclusion that there is a REAL danger amongst it and it’s called Islam.

I covered the jihad knife terror a few days ago. The Police were INSISTENT that this was a case of “mental illness” and that the killer, Zakaria Bulhan, had NO terror connections. This was repeated by an obliging media and the case was effectively reduced to one of street crime.

Except it wasn’t that simple.

In the past few days, on the social networks, the following facts have been revealed.

Heat Street has found evidence that a person using the same name – Zakaria Bulhan – has listed at least one book advocating violent jihadism in their personal account on the Good Reads website since 2014.

Update: An exhaustive search of UK records by Heat Street shows there appears to be only one person in the whole of Britain with the name Zakaria Bulhan. He is registered as living at an address in Tooting, South London.

It is a near-certainty that this is the same person arrested by police and said to have “no links” to terrorism, but merely to be mentally ill.

Between January 2014 and September 2015, Zakaria Bulhan flagged up on Good Reads three books on Islam and Islamist theology as texts they intended to read. The most interesting, and the one that shows that at the age of 17 this person was at the very least exploring a book which is very clear on urging violent jihadism as a duty of Muslims, is Riyad-us-Saliheen, a 13th century text.

Meanwhile, in Belgium, this…

A crazed man hacked at a policewoman’s face with a machete and shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ before turning on another officer just seconds before a third cop shot him dead in a suspected terror attack.

One can argue that these demented people DO suffer from mental illness. One can argue that they are being manipulated by others to carry out such acts. But one cannot distance them from the fact they carry out their terrorism in the name of Islam. It is Jihad and trying to redefine it is cowardly.

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

Because that is what the muslim themsevles claim, as a means of excusing the attacks. They have learnt to make such claims so the sympathy goes away from their victims and towards the attackers. They will claim it is because of PTSD due to them living in palestine or syria

Our own soldiers have come home suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injuries incurred from surviving close blasts. Some have acted out violently. Are you saying that does not happen with civilians in similar settings?

This is another scandal, this hasn't changed for 100 years, when PTSD used to be called Shell Shock, and they often were just shot on the spot by their own team.

The ones suffering from PTSD now are only marginally treated better than those who came many decades ago.

There's been a lot of research into it and traumatic brain injuries recently because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. There was also an expose on how the military was refusing to acknowledge or diagnose it, so they weren't getting treated.

what sort of "treatment" do you recommend for "traumatic
brain injury" ?

 

[irosie91]

wrong again----"mental illness as a factor" is absolutely not
even close to mental illness as a cause. Mental illness
is VERY VERY prevalent in the human population----most
crime is not CAUSED by mental illness. Al Capone had
neurosyphilis----want to blame his life of crime on that illness?

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

oh----that certainly NAILS it ------just prevent "mental illness" and "religion"-----of course---first DEFINE mental illness and
religion

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

Because that is what the muslim themsevles claim, as a means of excusing the attacks. They have learnt to make such claims so the sympathy goes away from their victims and towards the attackers. They will claim it is because of PTSD due to them living in palestine or syria

Our own soldiers have come home suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injuries incurred from surviving close blasts. Some have acted out violently. Are you saying that does not happen with civilians in similar settings?

This is another scandal, this hasn't changed for 100 years, when PTSD used to be called Shell Shock, and they often were just shot on the spot by their own team.

The ones suffering from PTSD now are only marginally treated better than those who came many decades ago.

There's been a lot of research into it and traumatic brain injuries recently because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. There was also an expose on how the military was refusing to acknowledge or diagnose it, so they weren't getting treated.

what sort of "treatment" do you recommend for "traumatic
brain injury" ?

This would depend what sort of TBI it is. Diuretics can reduce pressure inside the brain, anti-seizure drugs can reduce further brain damage if they've had a seizure etc, then some might need a coma-inducing drug because a coma-induced brain needs less oxygen to function.

This all excludes the more serious TBI's which require surgery.

There's also rehabilitation treatments involving Neuropsychologist's, Occupational Therapist's, Physical Therapist's, Physiatrist's etc.

 

[Coyote]

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

Because that is what the muslim themsevles claim, as a means of excusing the attacks. They have learnt to make such claims so the sympathy goes away from their victims and towards the attackers. They will claim it is because of PTSD due to them living in palestine or syria

Our own soldiers have come home suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injuries incurred from surviving close blasts. Some have acted out violently. Are you saying that does not happen with civilians in similar settings?

This is another scandal, this hasn't changed for 100 years, when PTSD used to be called Shell Shock, and they often were just shot on the spot by their own team.

The ones suffering from PTSD now are only marginally treated better than those who came many decades ago.

There's been a lot of research into it and traumatic brain injuries recently because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. There was also an expose on how the military was refusing to acknowledge or diagnose it, so they weren't getting treated.

what sort of "treatment" do you recommend for "traumatic
brain injury" ?

I don't recommend anything. I'm not a doctor. Neither are you.

 

[Coyote]

Well...except, it's not everytime. That's the dishonesty in your argument. Only times, like when people and authorities who know the person, or have examined the person state there are mental health issues. The odd thing is, people have no trouble accepting that with the Jared Loughners of the world, but refuse to when it's a Muslim. I wonder why? The person can be psychotic, delusional, etc. and it's still a "jihadi". A woman was psychotic with a history of mental illness when she killed her kids because "God told her to"...but no one insists it's her religion making her do it- she's mentally ill.

David Vance, also, is an interesting figure - his website was apparently closed down for hate speech...if it's the same David Vance.

David Vance is a regular contributer to The Big Question on BBC TV, Sunday mornings.

What was hateful about his article? I don't like discrediting tactics.

I like to know what's behind a writer or source.

As to what is "hateful" - mostly, it's what I already wrote - the sudden claim that when it comes a violent act by someone who happens to be Muslim, mental illness is now automatically ruled out by you folks. It makes no sense since it is clearly behind certain violent acts by non-Muslims. A Muslim can be psychotic, delusional, hearing voices, claiming God is telling him to do this, authorities can state that there are "significant mental health issues" (as in a recent case) and you will deny mental illness is a factor in that case solely on the basis of that person's religion. I like things to make sense, that does not. It's not like folks are attributing every violent act to mental illness.

wrong again----"mental illness as a factor" is absolutely not
even close to mental illness as a cause. Mental illness
is VERY VERY prevalent in the human population----most
crime is not CAUSED by mental illness. Al Capone had
neurosyphilis----want to blame his life of crime on that illness?

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

thru thick and thin, thru alcohol and heroin----thru senile plaques and viral infection-----PERSONALITY DON'T CHANGE

Actually, it does and it can.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

Well yes we can agree on this.

The issue is, if you have 200,000 creatures such as ISIS, or Al-Nusra, or Islamic Jihad, or even further back with the Tamil Tigers who created the first individual suicide bombers, one can't say such a huge grouping of people for a "religious" cause are ALL suffering from mental illness.

And no one has said that, but each involves different issues as well. ISIS actively recruits and has sophisticated propoganda. The Tamil Tigers were an ethnic conflict who's roots lay in Sri Lanka's colonial past.

 

[Mindful]

I'm not sure the distinction between "a factor" and "a cause" is always that clear. Also - there is a huge variation across the spectrum of the different mental illness' so it's not even very accurate to lump it together as if it were one disease.

If you're looking at "causes" - you're looking at a whole variety factors and sometimes the cause is the intersection of two or more of those factors rather than one.

For example, everyone want's immediately pin it on religion, but yet there are millions of followers of a religion who don't go and run down innocent people with a truck, or blow up abortion clinics.

There are also millions of mentally ill people who never commit a violent act.

If a person is suffering from an untreated mental illness - what does his world look like? If he delusional or hearing voices - what are those voices telling him and how capable is he of sorting them out? What do ordinary people look like to him? Are they looming, menacing and evil? How frightening is the world to someone in a psychotic state - especially someone from a culture or family background that doesn't recognize it as an illness or someone so paranoid he refuses treatment?

I agree - it is a factor, often one of many. NAMI wrote an article on mental illness and violence that pointed out what increased the risk for violent behavior in conjunction with mental illness:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness | Violence and Gun Reporting Laws and Mental Health
Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include:

• Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs
• Past history of violence
• Being young and male
• Untreated psychosis

The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

oh----that certainly NAILS it ------just prevent "mental illness" and "religion"-----of course---first DEFINE mental illness and
religion

In the case of Islam, it is also a cultural and political system.

 

[Coyote]

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

oh----that certainly NAILS it ------just prevent "mental illness" and "religion"-----of course---first DEFINE mental illness and
religion

In the case of Islam, it is also a cultural and political system.

As is Judaism.

 

[Mindful]

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

oh----that certainly NAILS it ------just prevent "mental illness" and "religion"-----of course---first DEFINE mental illness and
religion

In the case of Islam, it is also a cultural and political system.

As is Judaism.

What's that got to do with it?

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

oh----that certainly NAILS it ------just prevent "mental illness" and "religion"-----of course---first DEFINE mental illness and
religion

In the case of Islam, it is also a cultural and political system.

Yes, I mentioned this in an earlier response. Islam isn't a religion, as we define a religion, it's more a political philosophy with a religious element to it, essentially it's more cultural and political than religious and it's ultimate aim is complete domination over all other systems, which is why it's not compatible with Western Civilisation.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

you are right----all criminals should be released from jail----
because I would have no problem in FINDING a psychiatric
diagnosis for anyone. There was a big storm crisis----street people DYING of exposure----I found a diagnosis ----just to keep them in the lobby with a meal tray

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

Well yes we can agree on this.

The issue is, if you have 200,000 creatures such as ISIS, or Al-Nusra, or Islamic Jihad, or even further back with the Tamil Tigers who created the first individual suicide bombers, one can't say such a huge grouping of people for a "religious" cause are ALL suffering from mental illness.

And no one has said that, but each involves different issues as well. ISIS actively recruits and has sophisticated propoganda. The Tamil Tigers were an ethnic conflict who's roots lay in Sri Lanka's colonial past.

But what The Tamil Tigers have in common with ISIS, Al-Nusra, Islamic Jihad is the using of the suicide bomber, which as I said effectively The Tamil Tigers created originally.

Are suicide bombers mentally ill or are they committed fanatics who consider it the highest honour to, in their opinion, Martyr themselves for the ultimate cause?

 

[Coyote]

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

oh----that certainly NAILS it ------just prevent "mental illness" and "religion"-----of course---first DEFINE mental illness and
religion

In the case of Islam, it is also a cultural and political system.

As is Judaism.

What's that got to do with it?

Just pointing out other cultural and political religious systems, some people seem to think there is only one

 

[Coyote]

Where did you come up with that crazy idea? But - people who truly have a mental illness diagnosis of a one of the major diseases like schitzophrenia do not belong in jail. That is the worst place for them to be. Jails are not equipt to handle them and they often end up there on substance abuse, vagrancy, or public nuisance charges. If they commit a violent crime - they need to be in a secure facility that can keep them confined and properly medicated.

We agree that too many people suffering from mental health issues are in prison, these are vulnerable people and of course they shouldn't be in prison.

That they've committed whatever crime, depending on the nature of their mental illness, they can't be considered responsible for their actions.

They should be in secure institutions, where they can get the correct treatment for their illness.

Mr. Lucy deals with some people exactly like this, but I better not elaborate.

Society in general is still very ignorant regarding mental health issues, which is a scandal, we're in 2016 not 1816.

I think each incident needs to be viewed individually, not lumped together as "mental illness" or "religion" - many reasons, and how you respond in the aftermath, to prevent more, will vary.

Well yes we can agree on this.

The issue is, if you have 200,000 creatures such as ISIS, or Al-Nusra, or Islamic Jihad, or even further back with the Tamil Tigers who created the first individual suicide bombers, one can't say such a huge grouping of people for a "religious" cause are ALL suffering from mental illness.

And no one has said that, but each involves different issues as well. ISIS actively recruits and has sophisticated propoganda. The Tamil Tigers were an ethnic conflict who's roots lay in Sri Lanka's colonial past.

But what The Tamil Tigers have in common with ISIS, Al-Nusra, Islamic Jihad is the using of the suicide bomber, which as I said effectively The Tamil Tigers created originally.

Are suicide bombers mentally ill or are they committed fanatics who consider it the highest honour to, in their opinion, Martyr themselves for the ultimate cause?

I don't know....the Japanese had the Kamakazi pilots. What you have is a person willing to kill himself for a "cause"...not necessarily mentally ill. But I have heard that some of these groups have exploited mentally retarded people to do it.

One important point...you ever notice the LEADERS of these groups (and their family members) never seem to be suicide bombers?