Ask a cop a question...

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't think anyone claimed that was illegal. It was just the 3 minutes of ignoring the cop's lawful commands after he got out of the car.

That's my point.

If it is not illegal to get out of a car during a traffic stop it is not lawful to order someone to get back into one.

Odd logic.

What was unlawful was the failure to obey a police officer.

I quoted the law. Where does it say that a police officer can only order someone to not do something illegal?

Police can only give orders in very limited circumstances, this is not one of them.

 

[jillian]

That's my point.

If it is not illegal to get out of a car during a traffic stop it is not lawful to order someone to get back into one.

Odd logic.

What was unlawful was the failure to obey a police officer.

I quoted the law. Where does it say that a police officer can only order someone to not do something illegal?

Police can only give orders in very limited circumstances, this is not one of them.

and you base that on??

 

[SFC Ollie]

While the idiot was on the ground you can hear the police yelling at him repeatedly "Stop Resisting".

Tell you waht. Let me and a couple of other guys shoot you with Tasers and see how much resisting you do. Cops are trained to say "Stop resisting" in order to protect themselves from lawsuits.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_IQDOvp2o"]YouTube - ‪Drunk Girl Gets Taken Down At Galley-Place Metro Station‬‏[/ame]

Horse shit. Pure fucking horse shit. Please show us where cops are trained to yell out to protect them themselves from lawsuits.... Need a bridge?

Besides I'll never get hit with a taser, I actually have common sense and a respect for law enforcement.

 

[SFC Ollie]

That's my point.

If it is not illegal to get out of a car during a traffic stop it is not lawful to order someone to get back into one.

Odd logic.

What was unlawful was the failure to obey a police officer.

I quoted the law. Where does it say that a police officer can only order someone to not do something illegal?

Police can only give orders in very limited circumstances, this is not one of them.

Now that was one of the more stupid things I've seen in this thread.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I see Harper's behaviour as totally normal - in the beginning. he was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form IMO...

i think part of the problem is a function of custom. in this country, if i'm pulled over, i have to keep my hands visible and open the driver's side window. getting out of the car without being asked to is considered threatening behavior. in such an instance, the officer has the right to assume that he is in danger and can act accordingly.

in this case, it appears the person kept walking toward the officer despite being asked to stop. his hands were pocketed and could have concealed anything. the officer was entitled to act with reasonable force to protect himself...in this case using a taser and not deadly force.

You are a lawyer, you know better than that.

If you are pulled over your only legal obligation is provide license, proof of insurance, and registration of the vehicle. Custom has no legally binding force on anyone.

I used to have a car where the driver's window would not go down. I got stopped in that car once, and I opened the door. The police officer did not view that as threatening, nor did he demand I close the door, and he did not pull a weapon on me and threaten me with violence.

This was a small town cop with a chip on his shoulder. The guy had every legal right to get out of his car, and stay put of it. He also had every legal right to know why he was stopped.

I do not understand why you, who claim to be a liberal, always take the side of the government. This cop did not act professionally, did not respond to a completely legitimate question, and then used excessive force by repeatedly tasering the man.

By the way, Just because Tasers are less deadly than nuclear bombs, that does not mean the do not kill. Once the guy took his hands out of his pockets, and backup arrived, any need to use a Taser in self defense obviously no longer existed. Yet they still used one.

Repeatedly.

Over and over again, with the repeated justification of "Stop resisting."

Only an authoritarian asshole could watch that video and claim that the police were not wrong.

 

[Sunshine]

While the idiot was on the ground you can hear the police yelling at him repeatedly "Stop Resisting".

Tell you waht. Let me and a couple of other guys shoot you with Tasers and see how much resisting you do. Cops are trained to say "Stop resisting" in order to protect themselves from lawsuits.

Horse shit. Pure fucking horse shit. Please show us where cops are trained to yell out to protect them themselves from lawsuits.... Need a bridge?

Besides I'll never get hit with a taser, I actually have common sense and a respect for law enforcement.

Riiiiiiiiiight! Enid police taser nursing home patient - KFOR

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Down here it is the exact opposite. You better have a good reason for arresting somebody. It was ingrained in us from day one - if you are prepared to take away somebody's liberty you better have a very good reason for doing so.

And by good reason I mean it is similar to just cause. The minute you arrest somebody you are no longer allowed to question them and you give them the caution (our equivalent of the Miranda). Now, if they impart info after that, then that is one them but you cannot question them. The theory behind it is, if you have enough evidence to arrest them, then you need no more info. If you don't have enough evidence then you shouldn't arrest them.

Absolutely you should argue the toss about what is going on. I keep on harping back to this - especially to the righties on this board (and I know you are not one Geaux) and that is this: Please, please, please do not harp on about how great and free America is. This incident in the OP clearly shows you have a long way to go.

That being said, I stand by my reasoning that one of the main reasons for this is your gun culture. The irony about the reason for the second being in place in the first instance and what the knock on affect is, is not lost on me...

Sounds like the NZ idea of a police officer is sitting by a camp fire and telling ghost stories.

I am all for the 2nd Amendment. The criminals will get the guns regardless of the rights.

There are very CPL holders who committ a crime using a gun. However, these people have the legal right to defend themselves and their families. It's called freedom.

Well, you can be slightly condescending if you like...but I've had to deal with people like this:

http://members.nzpif.org.nz/UserFiles/image/MongrelMob_300x200.jpg

And this

http://skyoneonline.co.uk/rosskempgangs/assets/images/episode-newzealand.jpg

and this

Gang show of force at court - crime - national | Stuff.co.nz

Maori ethnic gangs. Make your bloods and crips look like choir boys.

That aside, I know you think it is "freedom". You are so free, and your society so awash with guns, that citizens get treated like criminals because the cops don't have a clue who is carrying and who isn't. In NZ, we know 99.99999999999 percent of those we stop are not carrying....And on the very very very minor off chance there is somebody is carrying, we don't create a new law just 'in case' somebody is carrying. We don't curtail your average citizens freedoms for the exception to the rule (although some people do lobby for that)....

That cannot possibly work, just ask any liberal on this board. New Zealand must be a hotbed of anarchy.

I did enjoy it the one week I spent in Wellington though. Which I could have seen more of your country.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Odd logic.

What was unlawful was the failure to obey a police officer.

I quoted the law. Where does it say that a police officer can only order someone to not do something illegal?

Police can only give orders in very limited circumstances, this is not one of them.

and you base that on??

Police cannot order you to let them into your house.
Police cannot order you to talk to them without an lawyer.
Police cannot order you to let them search your car.

What makes you think police have broad powers to give orders?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

While the idiot was on the ground you can hear the police yelling at him repeatedly "Stop Resisting".

Tell you waht. Let me and a couple of other guys shoot you with Tasers and see how much resisting you do. Cops are trained to say "Stop resisting" in order to protect themselves from lawsuits.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_IQDOvp2o"]YouTube - ‪Drunk Girl Gets Taken Down At Galley-Place Metro Station‬‏[/ame]

Horse shit. Pure fucking horse shit. Please show us where cops are trained to yell out to protect them themselves from lawsuits.... Need a bridge?

Besides I'll never get hit with a taser, I actually have common sense and a respect for law enforcement.

Why do cops always yell "Stop resisting" when people are getting a bet down, or tasered, even when they are suffering from a concussion so severe they could not resist even if they wanted to?

I do not have to provide links to something that happens every single time cops get into a confrontation with a person. I have not demanded you provide links to police being trained to tell people to stay in their car, have I?

 

[Dr Grump]

Sounds like the NZ idea of a police officer is sitting by a camp fire and telling ghost stories.

I am all for the 2nd Amendment. The criminals will get the guns regardless of the rights.

There are very CPL holders who committ a crime using a gun. However, these people have the legal right to defend themselves and their families. It's called freedom.

Well, you can be slightly condescending if you like...but I've had to deal with people like this:

http://members.nzpif.org.nz/UserFiles/image/MongrelMob_300x200.jpg

And this

http://skyoneonline.co.uk/rosskempgangs/assets/images/episode-newzealand.jpg

and this

Gang show of force at court - crime - national | Stuff.co.nz

Maori ethnic gangs. Make your bloods and crips look like choir boys.

That aside, I know you think it is "freedom". You are so free, and your society so awash with guns, that citizens get treated like criminals because the cops don't have a clue who is carrying and who isn't. In NZ, we know 99.99999999999 percent of those we stop are not carrying....And on the very very very minor off chance there is somebody is carrying, we don't create a new law just 'in case' somebody is carrying. We don't curtail your average citizens freedoms for the exception to the rule (although some people do lobby for that)....

That cannot possibly work, just ask any liberal on this board. New Zealand must be a hotbed of anarchy.

I did enjoy it the one week I spent in Wellington though. Which I could have seen more of your country.

NZ has its problems for sure....but we don't have these kinds of issues in the main...

My wife is from Wellington. I love that city. used to be a dump, but they beautified it about 15 years ago...

 

[Avatar4321]

I ask cops questions all the time... course thats in the court room. I dont think the judge would appreciate them tazing me.

 

[geauxtohell]

Still nothing about not getting out of a car during a traffic stop.

I don't think anyone claimed that was illegal. It was just the 3 minutes of ignoring the cop's lawful commands after he got out of the car.

That's my point.

If it is not illegal to get out of a car during a traffic stop it is not lawful to order someone to get back into one.

I think it's lawful for a police officer to order someone back into a car.

Can you legally support your assertion?

I'll agree that you can get out, but the second a cop tells you to get back in, it's a lawful order.

Why wouldn't it be?

 

[geauxtohell]

This kid had his day in court.

He was charged with resisting arrest and cited for his license plate.

All I can figure is the jury either wasn't permitted to see the video or they were blind, The idiot was acquitted on the resisting charge.

In order to resist arrest someone has to be under arrest. He never resisted because no one even tried to arrest him until after they tased him.

What? You have to place someone under arrest before you can taze them? That makes no sense.

 

[geauxtohell]

Heresna traffic stop that happen to me.
I was driving through a little town called davidson a couple of years ago. A cop stopped me, I asked him why he stopped me he said for not wearing my sat belt, which I was while I was sitting in my truck I started getting pissed so I open the door and got out he told me to get back in my truck. I told him directly the sidewalk is public access and I will stand on the sidewalk if I want to. We went around and around and finally some back up came and cool the situation down. Anyway I fucked with the cops mind so much he wrote the wrong tag number from an old registraition I gave him. Went to court fought it DA through it out because I said how can the officer tell if I was wearing a seat belt in a moving vehicle or not when he couldn't even write to correct tag number on the citation while the vehicle was parked in front of his patriol car?

I fought the law and they lost.

I was walking down a street once when I was stopped by a BNSF railroad cop and told I was on railroad property. I argued with him a lot, demanded to see his ID, made him show me his ID, not his badge, and hold it long enough for me to actually read it. He wrote me a ticket for hassling him, claiming that he would have let me off with a warning if I hadn't given him a hard time. One thing, he was so pissed that he enhanced the ticket by claiming that I had been previously warned. When I went to court I demanded to see the record of the warning, which he could not produce. He did not even take my picture for the ticket, which was part of what he was required to do.

Ditto on the last line.

You two are a couple of real hard cases.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8]YouTube - ‪N.W.A. - Fuck Tha Police + Lyrics‬‏[/ame]

 

[geauxtohell]

Police can only give orders in very limited circumstances, this is not one of them.

and you base that on??

Police cannot order you to let them into your house.

A house and a car don't have the same degree of protection. The concept being that cars are driven on public streets.

Police cannot order you to talk to them without an lawyer.

Correct. Not relevant.

Police cannot order you to let them search your car.

They can search your car in a limited fashion even without your consent. If they have probable cause, they'll obtain a warrant anyways and the standard is lower than for your house. A car is not a man's "castle".

What makes you think police have broad powers to give orders?

Because they are conferred with special trust and duties when they put on the badge. You seem to want to relegate police officers to "hall monitor" status.

 

[Dr Grump]

I'll agree that you can get out, but the second a cop tells you to get back in, it's a lawful order.

So if he doesn't like the way you are walking down the street, or your clothes are too loud, or your mohawk haircut is an afront to civilisation, or he likes loud music, but just not your loud music? Where is the line drawn.

I have deliberately given examples that could set him off as opposed to ridiculous answers such as him not liking the colour of your car, or the fact you eat M&Ms....

 

[geauxtohell]

I'll agree that you can get out, but the second a cop tells you to get back in, it's a lawful order.

So if he doesn't like the way you are walking down the street, or your clothes are too loud, or your mohawk haircut is an afront to civilisation, or he likes loud music, but just not your loud music? Where is the line drawn.

I have deliberately given examples that could set him off as opposed to ridiculous answers such as him not liking the colour of your car, or the fact you eat M&Ms....

This scenario is different because the officer stopped the person for a traffic offense (albeit a stupid offense, but an offense non the less).

A police officer can not simply hassle someone on the street. However, when you are behind the wheel, it is understood that you are on public streets as a privilege and not a right. The police can stop you.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I see Harper's behaviour as totally normal - in the beginning. he was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form IMO...

i think part of the problem is a function of custom. in this country, if i'm pulled over, i have to keep my hands visible and open the driver's side window. getting out of the car without being asked to is considered threatening behavior. in such an instance, the officer has the right to assume that he is in danger and can act accordingly.

in this case, it appears the person kept walking toward the officer despite being asked to stop. his hands were pocketed and could have concealed anything. the officer was entitled to act with reasonable force to protect himself...in this case using a taser and not deadly force.

Jillian his reaction is normal, at least with me it is. If I know that have have been wrongly stopped I will treat the cop like an ass.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I see Harper's behaviour as totally normal - in the beginning. he was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form IMO...

i think part of the problem is a function of custom. in this country, if i'm pulled over, i have to keep my hands visible and open the driver's side window. getting out of the car without being asked to is considered threatening behavior. in such an instance, the officer has the right to assume that he is in danger and can act accordingly.

in this case, it appears the person kept walking toward the officer despite being asked to stop. his hands were pocketed and could have concealed anything. the officer was entitled to act with reasonable force to protect himself...in this case using a taser and not deadly force.

Go back and see how long his hands are in his pockets? Bugger all. And the whole time the cop had a loaded (I presume) gun on him at about 15 feet if that.

Of course an officer is allowed to act with reasonable force to protect himself. And if you can kindly point to the time code as to where the guy started attacking him, we can go from there....

Scary thing a subject me and the grump agree on.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Heresna traffic stop that happen to me.
I was driving through a little town called davidson a couple of years ago. A cop stopped me, I asked him why he stopped me he said for not wearing my sat belt, which I was while I was sitting in my truck I started getting pissed so I open the door and got out he told me to get back in my truck. I told him directly the sidewalk is public access and I will stand on the sidewalk if I want to. We went around and around and finally some back up came and cool the situation down. Anyway I fucked with the cops mind so much he wrote the wrong tag number from an old registraition I gave him. Went to court fought it DA through it out because I said how can the officer tell if I was wearing a seat belt in a moving vehicle or not when he couldn't even write to correct tag number on the citation while the vehicle was parked in front of his patriol car?

I fought the law and they lost.

I was walking down a street once when I was stopped by a BNSF railroad cop and told I was on railroad property. I argued with him a lot, demanded to see his ID, made him show me his ID, not his badge, and hold it long enough for me to actually read it. He wrote me a ticket for hassling him, claiming that he would have let me off with a warning if I hadn't given him a hard time. One thing, he was so pissed that he enhanced the ticket by claiming that I had been previously warned. When I went to court I demanded to see the record of the warning, which he could not produce. He did not even take my picture for the ticket, which was part of what he was required to do.

Ditto on the last line.

You two are a couple of real hard cases.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8]YouTube - ‪N.W.A. - Fuck Tha Police + Lyrics‬‏[/ame]

No it's not fuck the police, it's fuck the 85% power hungry punks behind a little piece of metal.