Are Catholics and Muslims HEATHEN according to JESUS?

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by josephignatius, Jun 29, 2004.

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Was it wrong for Jesus to condemn everyone who did not follow him?

  1. Yes, in which case Christianity and Islam are wrong to exist and can rightfully judge one another an

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. No, in which case the Catholic Church among all the others that exist, in addition to Islam are both

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
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  1. josephignatius
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    josephignatius Guest

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    Are these sacred scriptures from the Gospels of the New Testament, that quote the words of Jesus, ignored by the Catholic Church, among many other Churches alike? Indeed aren't these scriptures also ignored by muslims, who also claim to believe in Jesus? Are in fact BOTH of these 'religious' groups, that are supported by BILLIONS of people, in fact pagan by the very definition of the scriptures they use for the basis of their faiths? And if so, then must we not endeavour to make them aware of this, and try to stop all this religious contention which is eating the world alive? What is the original source for the worst religious contention, the basis of the 'War against Terror' which involves so Christians and Muslims and Jews, indeed the entire world?

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    The following quotes are all from the Gospel of Matthew:

    19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    Are we not just like this man, when we question how we can have eternal life?

    19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    How can those of the Church call themselves good if only God is good?

    19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    These are surely the commandments that we have no choice but to keep?
    19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    And if we feel we do these things, then surely we are only as good as this man?

    19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

    And is it not written over and over that in fact we must be perfect?

    5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Do we not in fact, according to Jesus, have no choice in fact but to do precisely the same thing that that rich man had to? Give away EVERYTHING, without exception?

    19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    Is this not in fact the response of nearly everyone? Are not nearly all supposed 'Christians' in fact just like this rich man who walked away? Is this not in fact the response of those people who are responsible for guiding the people? Those responsible for the organisation of the 'church' itself? That is to say the clergy in particular? Does that not mean they have disobeyed what is written in the scripture, what was said by the Son of God? Is the church not in fact run by rich men like that certain man? Have they not in fact turned away from God and the truth like that man did?

    19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Does this not mean that the 'Church' is in fact like that camel who Jesus described?

    19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

    Does that not indeed call into serious question who it is that will be saved?

    19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
    19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
    19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Does this not mean that in fact everyone who follows his word will sit with Jesus and with him judge those who claim to follow God?

    19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

    And is this not just what Jesus had told that rich man to do, and repeated to all the people over and over?

    10:37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
    10:38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
    10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

    By walking away sad, does that not mean that the rich man, and anyone like him, loves his father and mother, son and daughter more than Jesus? That they have not taken up their cross? That they cannot call themselves a follower of Jesus? That they are unwilling to lose their life? Does that not mean, according to what Jesus himself said, that anyone like this man is not worthy of Jesus?

    19:30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

    On earth, that rich man was first. He had money and possessions so he was considered greater by people because he had those riches. The poor on the streets with nothing were considered the least because they had nothing. According to Jesus, does that not mean that in fact it is those who are first on earth, who will be seen as the last by God, and those who are last on earth will be seen as the first?

    Does all this not mean that the Pope, for example, who is surrounded by so many riches and is seen as the first, will in fact be the last and not the first? And will it be those who lie out in the cold, hard streets with nowhere to rest their heads, and are allowed to remain that way whilst those within the 'church' lay their heads on warm soft pillows, who will in fact be the ones who are saved? For surely it would only be amongst them that there would be anyone who has followed Jesus' commandments and is perfect? Will the condemnation also be directed at those who have followed the 'church's' example and allowed this to remain so? Have the 'church' not helped nourish that seed which is fear of truth?

    Does this not mean that in fact even the Pope and all his followers are not worthy of Jesus? Does this mean they false prophets? Are they, and all their followers hypocrites?

    7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    And does it not seem that they are not doing the will of the Father, since they refuse to renounce their riches?

    7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Is this not what will happen to them? Are they condemned to hell? Will Jesus, who they claim to be their saviour, in fact be the one who condemns them, already in fact?

    And according to Jesus, would it not be better for the Pope and those in charge of the churches, who make others follow by their example, for a millstone to be tied round their neck and theybe thrown into the sea?

    Indeed, is this not even true for all the muslims of the entire world, who though they profess to believe in Jesus, and use his teachings as a fundamental basis for their faith, have also gone against his word? Was Mohummed himself a 'false prophet'?
     
  2. NewGuy
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    NewGuy Guest

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    Lets iron this whole thing out without the chaos.

    Regardless of verse, the muslims do not believe in the same God.

    -They cannot be Christians.

    The catholics DO.

    -They CAN be Christians.

    The CAN is qualified by their belief.

    There is no way to know outside of their belief or claim of it.

    The catholic ritualistic behavior is NON-Christian, but that doesn't determine salvation.
     
  3. josephignatius
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    josephignatius Guest

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    They both believe in one God, and that God can only be the same God, but they call Him different names. Jesus said that God is Love, and so he described what the meaning of pure love is in terms of a way of life. He described how one could serve God to perfection, by becoming like him. He said over and over, that unless one did not do EVERYTHING he said, one could not even associat themself with him. So how could Mohummed, hundreds of years later, preofess to be associated with him, when he disregarded precisely what it was that Jesus said? According to Jesus, Mohummed was a false prophet because he went against his word. And that nullifies the entire religion of Islam. Instead, muslims are christians, who are all Jews! But Jews refuse to acknowlede Jesus and thereby Christianity and Islam as a result. A religion in its purest form would apply throughout the universe, on the most distant star, and love seems to be the only possible self-explanitory truth there is. Surely Jesus, who lived a life of love in its purest form, is the source of God? Surely he is the most famous man who has ever existed in the human race or a reason?
     
  4. NewGuy
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    As long as you believe this, when such a thing is unfounded, you will get it wrong.

    Ask a Christian, ask a muslim.

    There is Christ or Allah.
     
  5. rtwngAvngr
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    rtwngAvngr Guest

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    Hey ji. You've embedded too much stuff in your poll answers. But it still a good topic.Wars are fought over resources and control of future resources and control of minds, to convince people they've chosen the correct master, or even worse, to tell them they have no choice.
     
  6. Yurt
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    Yurt Gold Member

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    The muslims believe that Allah is the same Allah as that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Further they believe the Allah is also the God of Jesus. However, the main difference is they believe that Jesus was merely a messenger, not the Son of God. This is where they are wrong. Oh, and they are wrong on a few other things, but that would be off topic.

    http://anwary-islam.com/prophet-story/isa.htm
     
  7. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    JI, your posts are pretty hard to understand, but I will tell you that no, Islam and Christianity do NOT worship the same God. Christians worship the Trinity - that is, one God in three Persons: God the Father (what most people refer to as God), God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Islam worships one God in one person, much as Judaism does. It is a different God.

    As far as how Catholics and Muslims are perceived by Protestant Christians, I think NewGuy's post was pretty accurate.
     
  8. acludem
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    acludem VIP Member

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    Muslims, Christians, Catholics and Jews all worship the same God, and most will admit as much. Christian/Catholicism and Islam are extensions of Old Testament teachings. Muslims acknowledge Jesus Christ as a prophet of God, they simply believe he wasn't the last one.

    Yahweh, Jehovah, and God are all names for the same exact whatever it/he/she may be.

    acludem
     
  9. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    I havent been able to figure out why you seem to think ritual is somehow non christian. Or am i just misinterpreting what you are saying? The Old Testament was full of Ritual. So is the New Testament although not as ritualistic as the law of Moses. We still have baptism and the laying on of hands.
     
  10. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    as for the original post. i would say something but i think the original poster was all over the map and i couldnt make hide nor hair of what he was trying to get to.
     
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