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"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
The United States was referred to in the plural, clearly pertaining to the separate and individual states making up the Union. ihopehefails is correct.
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
The United States was referred to in the plural, clearly pertaining to the separate and individual states making up the Union. ihopehefails is correct.
no she isn't.... she's as dumb as toast and spends her time intentionally trolling the board.
states means the collective united states.
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
The United States was referred to in the plural, clearly pertaining to the separate and individual states making up the Union. ihopehefails is correct.
no she isn't.... she's as dumb as toast and spends her time intentionally trolling the board.
states means the collective united states.
If that were true the United States would be referred to in the singular.
Your interpretation ignores the first phrase, Kevin. The term being defined is treason against the entity known as the United States.
My interpretation doesn't ignore it at all. My interpretation simply acknowledges that the phrase "United States" is qualified by being referred to in the plural rather than the singular.
your interpretation is irrelevant.
words have meanings....
as does caselaw.
i would hate to think you so hate your country and only have fealty to your state.
more than that, i'd hate to think you intentionally choose to misconstrue things to advance some agenda.
My interpretation doesn't ignore it at all. My interpretation simply acknowledges that the phrase "United States" is qualified by being referred to in the plural rather than the singular.
Hardly qualified, but an affectation of late 18th and early 19th Century formal writing when referring to the Federal entity. That aside, treason can only be committed against the sovereign. Are you arguing that the Federal constitution outlining and controlling the Federal government applies only to the individual States, and does not create a new, sovereign entity?
Their referring to the United States in the plural wasn't simply a way of speaking back then, it was the way they felt about the country. The Union was comprised of sovereign and independent states, so the phrase "United States" was in reference to those states. Only after the great centralization of power that occurred during and after the Civil War did "United States" come to mean the federal government.
The states were considered the sovereigns having only ceded a limited number of responsibilities and powers to the federal government and retaining the rest to themselves.
No, that's not what I'm arguing at all. Only that that particular Section of the Constitution is referring to the states rather than the federal government.
What are you referring to when you say the U.S.?
The entity, singular, that is known as the nation of the United States of America.
Well, like I said, I don't accept that there is an entity called the U.S. outside of either the states or the federal government.
No, the federal government exists to work on behalf of the states.
I see the problem here then.
So when the Constitution refers to treason as treason against the "United States", what does that mean to you since you are not of the opinion that the "United States" as an entity exists or is a sovereign against which one can commit treason?
It's clearly referring to the states.
Really? Then why does it not simply say the "States", or even the "united States"? Why the proper noun form "United States"?
I've stated many times that the term "United States" used back then would be in reference to the states.
in other words, you're making it up as you go along.
in other words, you're making it up as you go along.
No.
yes. you are.
At the risk of repeating my sig....
".... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government... it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." Thomas Jefferson - The Declaration of Independence.
Americans are not only allowed to overthrow our government, it is our duty to do so. It says so in the Declaration. Therefore, it is not treasonous to overthrow our government.
no she isn't.... she's as dumb as toast and spends her time intentionally trolling the board.
states means the collective united states.
If that were true the United States would be referred to in the singular.
The United State of America?
Treason is defined as revolution against one of the states of the United states and not the federal government.
yes. you are.
He seems to be confusing the Articles of Confederation (which did give blanket sovereignty to the states) with the Constitution which is specific as to what rights belong to the states.
from the us constitution:
Section 3 - Treason Note
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.
it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.
from the us constitution:
Section 3 - Treason Note
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.
it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.
no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.
from the us constitution:
Section 3 - Treason Note
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.
it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.
no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.
from the us constitution:
Section 3 - Treason Note
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.
it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.
no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.
The UNITED States. The Union used to be spoke of in the plural. Nowadays we refer to the United States as "it" (singular) because we lost (somewhere along the way) the notion that we are a combination of states forming the Union. Nowadays we think of ourselves as citizens of the one Nation, first, not as citizens of our own sovereign States, first.
But treason as spelled out in the Constitution and Statute refers to us in the PLURAL because it was intended to refer to the Federal Union. The WHOLE United States. A person commits treason against that UNITED entity which was spoken of in the PLURAL.
There is really no basis in fact or in law to assume that treason would need to be defined AT ALL in our Constitution if it referred only to acts directed against ONE of the States. They were each sovereigns (and still are) in their own right. And they could make laws prohibiting such efforts directed against THEM without having to have it mentioned at all in the Constitution of the whole country.
from the us constitution:
Section 3 - Treason Note
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.
it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.
no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.
Picking the tense that suits yours and Kevin's position on this is becoming downright stupid. When you refer to men and women (plural), do you use the pronoun "him and her" or "THEM" ?? And speaking of the word "men," until the last 30 years or so, the term was INTENDED to mean both genders. Not only is the English language funny in many ways, the framers of the Constitution wrote as they spoke and were not students of English grammar. (Oops, I said "funny" -- another word that can mean two entirely different things.)
from the us constitution:
Section 3 - Treason Note
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.
it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.
no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.
The UNITED States. The Union used to be spoke of in the plural. Nowadays we refer to the United States as "it" (singular) because we lost (somewhere along the way) the notion that we are a combination of states forming the Union. Nowadays we think of ourselves as citizens of the one Nation, first, not as citizens of our own sovereign States, first.
But treason as spelled out in the Constitution and Statute refers to us in the PLURAL because it was intended to refer to the Federal Union. The WHOLE United States. A person commits treason against that UNITED entity which was spoken of in the PLURAL.
There is really no basis in fact or in law to assume that treason would need to be defined AT ALL in our Constitution if it referred only to acts directed against ONE of the States. They were each sovereigns (and still are) in their own right. And they could make laws prohibiting such efforts directed against THEM without having to have it mentioned at all in the Constitution of the whole country.
