An America Without Unions

[konradv]

it's called corporatism. They got in bed with the government, and has gone downhill from there.

The same is true with unions.

Get the unions and corporations out of government with public financing of elections. Cheaper in the long run.

Yep. All for it. no corporate or union money in elections. But if one gets to play, they ALL get to play. Congrats, you said something I agree with. If this disturbs you too much, the immolation chamber's third door down on the left past the 'no screaming' sign.

Why, because you finally said something sane?

 

[Charles_Main]

You remember the old song performed by Tennessee Ernie Ford " You Load Sixteen Tons And What Do You Get, Another Day Older And Deeper In Debt"

That's not just the words to a song.....it happened. The railroads, the mines, every small enterprise or company paid the least amount they could get by with and there were no benefits at all. People worked 12 hours a day for less than a dollar and their mid day meal. If the company one was working for heard a complaint or a discouraging word an employee was told to collect their pay and find another job.

In the 1940's and early 50's a corporate executive earned about $20,000-$25,000 per year.Along about that time the unions began to negotiate for and gain some salary amounts and benefits. Every time the union was about to be successful at some effort the companies(by default) gave it to their salaried people first........where I worked sometimes as close as two weeks before they awarded it to the union employees.

By the 70's a corporate executive's pay had increased to several hundred thousand dollars a year because the unions were begining to accomodate base line employees with a living wage and new benefits each year.

When I hired in with Union Carbide Corp. in 1952 they had a pension plan but cost was shared by the employee. A person earning $4000-$5000 a year who had a family of four usually didn't even take part in the guaranteed lifetime pension which was based upon their salary at retirement and their years of service. They couldn't afford it if they planned to educated their children. I was single and began the first day to pay into the pension plan.

About 4-5 years later the union negotiated for and received a company funded pension plan and they negotiated for it to be retroactive. I received a lump sum payment for every penny I had paid into the plan and retired with a company funded pension after 41 years service.

People today have no clue about what the unions did for ordinary employees. The only reason companies today pay anybody a goddam dime more than they have to is the threat of a union. If they weren't still on the scene companies would still have railroad workers living in side cars paying half of their salary in rent and miners would still be working in totally unsafe conditions for enough to buy their groceries at the stores the companies operated.

The youth of today look around and think companies are on their side, and a few are, but for the most part a company operates for the highest bottom line profit and would screw their own kin for each employee to earn $10 a week less or to not be required to carry health insurance. Before unions there was no such thing as OSHA or the EPA and employees worked in asbestos, uranium, coal mines, and all manner of other potentially unsafe conditions and men bragged about working in the most adverse conditions. I know....I worked in the Oak Ridge Gaseous Diffusion Plant(ORGDP) where the light green powdered form of uranium was everywhere and the operators didn't even wear masks or wear an individual badge to determine radiation exposure till the early 70's

If there had never been such a thing as a union 90% of the employees of today would be working for a pittance in completely unsafe conditions. A company has never given anybody a dime they didn't have to and they never will. Thank goodness a few large corporations who employ mostly well educated technical personnel have begun to see the light and voluntarily treat the employees with respect and pay them good salaries.......It happens about as frequently as teeth in a chicken.

Why is it some of you can only think in Terms of Black and White. You seem to think that you either fully support everything Unions, want, and do at all times, or you must be for Abolishing Unions all together.

So silly, where is this simpleminded thinking coming from.

One can see that Unions are needed, and understand that Unchecked union power is just as bad as Unchecked Power of Business. Unions can often be Greedy, Selfish and Shortsighted. They Often Operate like Old Boys Clubs, Making is so you basically have to be related to or know someone who already works at a Union Shop, if you want a chance to get Hired there. They Regularly place their Own needs above the very Welfare of the Companies and Industries they work in. Given the Choice between losing Jobs, but holding onto Benefits Unions 4 out of 5 Times choose to see Lay offs rather than any Cuts to their Pay and Benefits. Democrats try to make us all think Unions are looking out for us all, Only a Fool thinks that. Unions are looking out for themselves and Nobody else. They will squeeze every single Penny from What Ever Industry they may be in, Because that is what their Members want.

As with all things Balance is the Key. Get to far to one side or the other, Either with no Unions, or To powerful of Unions, and the Results are not to be desired.

Do you think that Janitor Making 32 Dollars an Hour to Sweep floors for GM, or the Line worker who enjoyed taking Monday off and Working Saturday for Double time every week because his Contract allowed it, ever gave much thought to how their sweet Heart Contracts effected the Bottom Lines of the Big 3? How about after they all nearly went under? Do you think it ever Dawned on them that maybe what they had been asking for was a big part of why American Car Companies could no longer compete effectively in the world Market?

Somehow I doubt it, but it's all true.

 

[Mr Natural]

Made the middle class.

 

[Full-Auto]

Made the middle class.

Sure they did.

What percentage did they have during that creation?

 

[Big Fitz]

Made the middle class.

No, it is not the exclusive creator of the middle class. Remember, the middle class was originally the merchant class and started coming into being in the 1400's, and didn't really start to rise till the industrial revolution. Then it came into it's modern form as we know it thank to Henry Ford... the dirty rotten capitalist who stated that his workers should be paid enough to afford his product. This started a bidding war for qualified labor that goes on to this day. Unions piggybacked on it, and for a SHORT period, helped negotiate many things that did increase the quality of life for laborers.

It has long since lost that reason for existence because they have succeeded so well.

The REAL creator of the Middle Class, as it were are Opportunity, Individual Freedom, Property Ownership and Prosperity

 

[GHook93]

People who are familiar with the constitution know that public sector unions cannot be outlawed or forcibly disbanded, but some republicans are familiar with the tactic of chipping away a little at a time.

Please enlighten us then you little fool? They can take away their collective bargaining rights, hence a thing federal unions don't have!

 

[occupied]

People who are familiar with the constitution know that public sector unions cannot be outlawed or forcibly disbanded, but some republicans are familiar with the tactic of chipping away a little at a time.

Please enlighten us then you little fool? They can take away their collective bargaining rights, hence a thing federal unions don't have!

Childish name calling and neg rep do not make an argument. You want an answer from me after all that? Screw you.

 

[Cammmpbell]

unions suck... outdated... legalized extortion...

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

 

[Big Fitz]

unions suck... outdated... legalized extortion...

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

 

[Cammmpbell]

unions suck... outdated... legalized extortion...

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

How old are you Tonto

During the great depression there were no unions and people who had a job were exactly like what I just described...financial slves. The unions gained rights, salaries and safety for all employees.......not just their members.

Here's a little mine history:

West Virginia's Mine Wars

"Miners worked in company mines with company tools and equipment, which they were required to lease. The rent for company housing and cost of items from the company store were deducted from their pay. The stores themselves charged over-inflated prices, since there was no alternative for purchasing goods. To ensure that miners spent their wages at the store, coal companies developed their own monetary system. Miners were paid by scrip, in the form of tokens, currency, or credit, which could be used only at the company store. Therefore, even when wages were increased, coal companies simply increased prices at the company store to balance what they lost in pay.

Miners were also denied their proper pay through a system known as cribbing. Workers were paid based on tons of coal mined. Each car brought from the mines supposedly held a specific amount of coal, such as 2,000 pounds. However, cars were altered to hold more coal than the specified amount, so miners would be paid for 2,000 pounds when they actually had brought in 2,500. In addition, workers were docked pay for slate and rock mixed in with the coal. Since docking was a judgment on the part of the checkweighman, miners were frequently cheated.

In addition to the poor economic conditions, safety in the mines was of great concern. West Virginia fell behind other major coal-producing states in regulating mining conditions. Between 1890 and 1912, West Virginia had a higher mine death rate than any other state. West Virginia was the site of numerous deadly coal mining accidents, including the nation's worst coal disaster. On December 6, 1907, an explosion at a mine owned by the Fairmont Coal Company in Monongah, Marion County, killed 361. One historian has suggested that during World War I, a U.S. soldier had a better statistical chance of surviving in battle than did a West Virginian working in the coal mines."

 

[Sallow]

Made the middle class.

Exactly.

Corporations have no interest in paying fare wages or giving benefits. Left on their own they would have slaves. Like Apple does at Foxconn.

 

[Sallow]

Made the middle class.

No, it is not the exclusive creator of the middle class. Remember, the middle class was originally the merchant class and started coming into being in the 1400's, and didn't really start to rise till the industrial revolution. Then it came into it's modern form as we know it thank to Henry Ford... the dirty rotten capitalist who stated that his workers should be paid enough to afford his product. This started a bidding war for qualified labor that goes on to this day. Unions piggybacked on it, and for a SHORT period, helped negotiate many things that did increase the quality of life for laborers.

It has long since lost that reason for existence because they have succeeded so well.

The REAL creator of the Middle Class, as it were are Opportunity, Individual Freedom, Property Ownership and Prosperity

The American middle class was made by FDR's new deal and Unions.

Before that? There were the very wealthy..and very poor.

 

[SniperFire]

Made the middle class.

Exactly.

Corporations have no interest in paying fare wages or giving benefits.

I see the bloated teacher union didn't do much to teach you to spell. Serious waste of money.

 

[Sallow]

Made the middle class.

Exactly.

Corporations have no interest in paying fare wages or giving benefits.

I see the bloated teacher union didn't do much to teach you to spell. Serious waste of money.

Opps..ya got me.

Can you point the the rule in english that says it's okay to capitalize a letter in middle of a word? Like your handle SniperFire? I wasn't aware that was proper.

 

[MeBelle]

This reminds me of the story of a woman who worked in a beer bottling plant.
A PRIVATE company.

She made $20 an hour slapping labels on beer bottles.
Is slapping labels on beer bottles worth $20 an hour? No.

The plant closed because it could not afford union wages.
The woman complained because all she could find was a job paying minimum wage.

She had no skill set, except for slapping labels on beer bottles.
Who was the slave here? She was.

Public unions are a different game. They are funded with tax dollars.
The state of California is going broke because of public unions.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I once heard an old timer sum up the justification for unions perfectly, short and to the point:

Because, he said, if the corporations had their way, you'd work for nothing.

And it's absolutely true.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Most people who hate unions are just jealous that some Americans have managed to hang onto good paying jobs with good benefits and good job security,

jobs that someone can support a family on, jobs that someone can have a good life on.

The rarer these sort of jobs become, the more resented are those who manage to get them.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Made the middle class.

No, it is not the exclusive creator of the middle class. Remember, the middle class was originally the merchant class and started coming into being in the 1400's, and didn't really start to rise till the industrial revolution. Then it came into it's modern form as we know it thank to Henry Ford... the dirty rotten capitalist who stated that his workers should be paid enough to afford his product. This started a bidding war for qualified labor that goes on to this day. Unions piggybacked on it, and for a SHORT period, helped negotiate many things that did increase the quality of life for laborers.

It has long since lost that reason for existence because they have succeeded so well.

The REAL creator of the Middle Class, as it were are Opportunity, Individual Freedom, Property Ownership and Prosperity

The American middle class was made by FDR's new deal and Unions.

Before that? There were the very wealthy..and very poor.

Which is exactly where we're heading again. That's one major thing I fall out with Obama about. He still takes money from Wall St. and has done little to reign them in. Beginning with Reagan the goddamned union bustin', tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, huge increases in the national debt etc. has created a monster in this country.

Look closely at the upper 1% after Bush's second tax cut in 2003:

 

[rdean]

Republicans can be trained to believe anything.

 

[Seawytch]

Most people who hate unions are just jealous that some Americans have managed to hang onto good paying jobs with good benefits and good job security,

jobs that someone can support a family on, jobs that someone can have a good life on.

The rarer these sort of jobs become, the more resented are those who manage to get them.

Exactly. One of the last bastions of good pay and benefits are public sector unions...which is why the Koch suckers are trying to get rid of them.