African-Americans Haven't Progressed Due to Culture, Not Racism & Slavery

[ZRoberts1991]

I recently read the book Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell which emphasized that african americans in the US have been unable to achieve similar success relative to other race not because of slavery or racism, but due to the culture they picked up from the southern plantation owners which has now morphed into ghetto culture. I was wondering if anyone else had an input on this subject or agreed with his thesis?

I put my review of the book up as well in case anyone is interested in watching it.

 

[midcan5]

Please don't offense but that's just plain stupid. One hardly knows where to start. But I'd suggest reading 'Invisible Man,' and maybe some James Baldwin to start. "It's fun to tease people about where fiction and life intersect." Dorothy Allison

You must lead a sheltered life or a short life to assume black Americans don't vary considerably, get out there in the wealthy burbs or the poor inner city sometime. People are people but there is that skin stuff that controls the mind of some. Be back, stuff below too.

"White children, in the main, and whether they are rich or poor, grow up with a grasp of reality so feeble that they can very accurately be described as deluded--about themselves and the world they live in. White people have managed to get through their entire lifetimes in this euphoric state, but black people have not been so lucky: a black man who sees the world the way John Wayne, for example, sees it would not be an eccentric patriot, but a raving maniac." James Baldwin

“The only reason you say that race was not an issue is because you wish it was not. We all wish it was not. But it’s a lie. I came from a country where race was not an issue; I did not think of myself as black and I only became black when I came to America. When you are black in America and you fall in love with a white person, race doesn’t matter when you’re alone together because it’s just you and your love. But the minute you step outside, race matters. But we don’t talk about it. We don’t even tell our white partners the small things that piss us off and the things we wish they understood better, because we’re worried they will say we’re overreacting, or we’re being too sensitive. And we don’t want them to say, Look how far we’ve come, just forty years ago it would have been illegal for us to even be a couple blah blah blah, because you know what we’re thinking when they say that? We’re thinking why the fuck should it ever have been illegal anyway? But we don’t say any of this stuff. We let it pile up inside our heads and when we come to nice liberal dinners like this, we say that race doesn’t matter because that’s what we’re supposed to say, to keep our nice liberal friends comfortable. It’s true. I speak from experience." Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Americanah

"Black people think in terms of we because we live in a society where the social and political structures interact with us as Black people." from I Racist THOSE PEOPLE Medium

"...One did not have to be very bright to realize how little one could do to change one’s situation; one did not have to be abnormally sensitive to be worn down to a cutting edge by the incessant and gratuitous humiliation and danger one encountered every working day, all day long. The humiliation did not apply merely to working days, or workers; I was thirteen and was crossing Fifth Avenue on my way to the Forty-second Street library, and the cop in the middle of the street muttered as I passed him, “Why don’t you ******* stay uptown where you belong?” When I was ten, and didn’t look, certainly, any older, two policemen amused themselves with me by frisking me, making comic (and terrifying) speculations concerning my ancestry and probable sexual prowess, and, for good measure, leaving me flat on my back in one of Harlem’s empty lots. Just before and then during the Second World War, many of my friends fled into the service, all to be changed there, and rarely for the better, many to be ruined, and many to die. Others fled to other states and cities—that is, to other ghettos. Some went on wine or whiskey or the needle, and are still on it. And others, like me, fled into the church." James Baldwin Letter from a Region in My Mind - The New Yorker

 

[ZRoberts1991]

I'm not here to generalize every single person into one group, I was mainly citing the book I had read which is widely regarded as instrumental in race relations by many across all political spectrums. The author is also african-american himself. I doubt you watched my review as well because I disagreed with some of the points made in this book.

Also please don't do the same and generalize me as well. I've worked extensively in Africa and the Inner-City as well. I've definitely experienced enough to offer my opinion on this subject. No not all black live in the gettho, and not all whites are affluent. But culture does exist, and the premise of the book is we must not overlook that. If you actually have worked in the inner-city at all, which I now question with you, it's painfully obvious that african-american culture works against itself sometimes. As a teacher, some of my smartest students would constantly play dumb because you were ostracized if you were remotely intelligent. If any of my students were remotely articulate they would be labeled as not being black enough.

Yes there are other societal factors at play just as you mentioned, but actually look into the book itself or Thomas Sowell's theories before commenting.

 

[ZRoberts1991]

Please don't offense but that's just plain stupid. One hardly knows where to start. But I'd suggest reading 'Invisible Man,' and maybe some James Baldwin to start. "It's fun to tease people about where fiction and life intersect." Dorothy Allison

You must lead a sheltered life or a short life to assume black Americans don't vary considerably, get out there in the wealthy burbs or the poor inner city sometime. People are people but there is that skin stuff that controls the mind of some. Be back, stuff below too.

"White children, in the main, and whether they are rich or poor, grow up with a grasp of reality so feeble that they can very accurately be described as deluded--about themselves and the world they live in. White people have managed to get through their entire lifetimes in this euphoric state, but black people have not been so lucky: a black man who sees the world the way John Wayne, for example, sees it would not be an eccentric patriot, but a raving maniac." James Baldwin

“The only reason you say that race was not an issue is because you wish it was not. We all wish it was not. But it’s a lie. I came from a country where race was not an issue; I did not think of myself as black and I only became black when I came to America. When you are black in America and you fall in love with a white person, race doesn’t matter when you’re alone together because it’s just you and your love. But the minute you step outside, race matters. But we don’t talk about it. We don’t even tell our white partners the small things that piss us off and the things we wish they understood better, because we’re worried they will say we’re overreacting, or we’re being too sensitive. And we don’t want them to say, Look how far we’ve come, just forty years ago it would have been illegal for us to even be a couple blah blah blah, because you know what we’re thinking when they say that? We’re thinking why the fuck should it ever have been illegal anyway? But we don’t say any of this stuff. We let it pile up inside our heads and when we come to nice liberal dinners like this, we say that race doesn’t matter because that’s what we’re supposed to say, to keep our nice liberal friends comfortable. It’s true. I speak from experience." Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Americanah

"Black people think in terms of we because we live in a society where the social and political structures interact with us as Black people." from I Racist THOSE PEOPLE Medium

"...One did not have to be very bright to realize how little one could do to change one’s situation; one did not have to be abnormally sensitive to be worn down to a cutting edge by the incessant and gratuitous humiliation and danger one encountered every working day, all day long. The humiliation did not apply merely to working days, or workers; I was thirteen and was crossing Fifth Avenue on my way to the Forty-second Street library, and the cop in the middle of the street muttered as I passed him, “Why don’t you ******* stay uptown where you belong?” When I was ten, and didn’t look, certainly, any older, two policemen amused themselves with me by frisking me, making comic (and terrifying) speculations concerning my ancestry and probable sexual prowess, and, for good measure, leaving me flat on my back in one of Harlem’s empty lots. Just before and then during the Second World War, many of my friends fled into the service, all to be changed there, and rarely for the better, many to be ruined, and many to die. Others fled to other states and cities—that is, to other ghettos. Some went on wine or whiskey or the needle, and are still on it. And others, like me, fled into the church." James Baldwin Letter from a Region in My Mind - The New Yorker

Posted reply above

 

[ClosedCaption]

It's fun to blame immeasurable things like "culture". See, if Sowell used real metrics he would see that Jim Crow had a definite mesuarable effect on someone's lives, that the lack of a GI bill ONLY FOR BLACKS was a definite measurable thing that effected blacks ability to own property.

That owning property us a definite measurable way to build wealth. That wealth is a definite measurable things that doesn't guarantee success but that does ASSIST in it.

But Sowell likes to ignore the measurable and instead blame an invisible thing like culture.

 

[ZRoberts1991]

It's fun to blame immeasurable things like "culture". See, if Sowell used real metrics he would see that Jim Crow had a definite mesuarable effect on someone's lives, that the lack of a GI bill ONLY FOR BLACKS was a definite measurable thing that effected blacks ability to own property.

That owning property us a definite measurable way to build wealth. That wealth is a definite measurable things that doesn't guarantee success but that does ASSIST in it.

But Sowell likes to ignore the measurable and instead blame an invisible thing like culture.

I found some of what Sowell said flawed, I always like reading both sides of the argument. Do you have any books you know of that run the counter to what Sowell's thesis was.

 

[Stephanie]

lol, I was going to warn you to put on your flame suit.

You can't discuss black people on this board without the leftist snobs going ape shit

but they'll post a nice little picture of a toothless redneck no problems. talk about crackers all you want. black people and homosexuals are OFF LIMITS. they'll want you hung from the highest tree

 

[william the wie]

Actual African-Americans and actual black immigrants from other places are a totally different breed in behavior and tend to surprise on the upside.

 

[Rocko]

I recently read the book Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell which emphasized that african americans in the US have been unable to achieve similar success relative to other race not because of slavery or racism, but due to the culture they picked up from the southern plantation owners which has now morphed into ghetto culture. I was wondering if anyone else had an input on this subject or agreed with his thesis?

I put my review of the book up as well in case anyone is interested in watching it.

I read the book and agree with you that everyone should read it.

 

[ZRoberts1991]

lol, I was going to warn you to put on your flame suit.

You can't discuss black people on this board without the leftist snobs going ape shit

but they'll post a nice little picture of a toothless redneck no problems. talk about crackers all you want. black people and homosexuals are OFF LIMITS. they'll want you hung from the highest tree

Yeah it's ridiculous the first reply went off on me with a shit load of quotes that didn't even adress the premise of the topic. I actually lean left, and like I said have a lot of experience working with inner-city youth. I do hate how a lot of extreme liberals just like to sniff the own smell of their flatulence sometimes and just call racism when discussing cultural groups in this country, it's in my mind what's exacerbating the problem. They use no facts whatsoever, just a bunch of nice sounding rhetoric that carries no substance. I actually want to see all ethnicities prosper as much as possible, some of my old students were great kids. It's clear that the system in place just isn;t working, and hasn't been working for fifty years.

 

[Stephanie]

by the way I love reading Mr. Sowell. . I haven't read that book. But I do read a lot of his stuff on the Internet.

-----
Thomas Sowell (/soʊl/; born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. He is currently Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. Sowell was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Harlem, New York.

• Thomas Sowell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ZRoberts1991]

by the way I love reading Mr. Sowell. . I haven't read that book. But I do read a lot of his stuff on the Internet.

-----
Thomas Sowell (/soʊl/; born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. He is currently Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. Sowell was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Harlem, New York.

• Thomas Sowell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Highly suggest reading it, easily one of my favorite books ever. What's your favorite book of his?

 

[Rocko]

It's fun to blame immeasurable things like "culture". See, if Sowell used real metrics he would see that Jim Crow had a definite mesuarable effect on someone's lives, that the lack of a GI bill ONLY FOR BLACKS was a definite measurable thing that effected blacks ability to own property.

That owning property us a definite measurable way to build wealth. That wealth is a definite measurable things that doesn't guarantee success but that does ASSIST in it.

But Sowell likes to ignore the measurable and instead blame an invisible thing like culture.

So your criticism to Sowell's assessment is he can't back it up using "real metrics"? Wow that's pretty feeble.

 

[rightwinger]

One of them "progressed" to President of the U.S.

Not too shabby

 

[Rocko]

One of them "progressed" to President of the U.S.

Not too shabby

Was raised by white grand parents in a state with no black people. Had he been more influenced by black culture maybe he wouldn't have bucked the trend like he did. And besides he's just one person, no one is saying that all blacks have to be victims of their broken culture. People can rise above.

 

[Stephanie]

by the way I love reading Mr. Sowell. . I haven't read that book. But I do read a lot of his stuff on the Internet.

-----
Thomas Sowell (/soʊl/; born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. He is currently Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. Sowell was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Harlem, New York.

• Thomas Sowell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Highly suggest reading it, easily one of my favorite books ever. What's your favorite book of his?

I haven't read any of his books. don't read like I used to. But I do read a lot of his columns. He is a very wise man who knows what he speaks about.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Fact of the matter is,there are plenty of blacks who can and do succeed by dumping the ghetto culture and joining the rest of us in living like civilized humane beings.
The rest of em I dont give a rats ass about.

 

[NeoTemplar]

I do think that it is the so called Ghetto culture that is hurting not just the Black Community but all communities in general, i used to go to school in a Black college town the college itself was fine for the most part but further out from the College you went the worse things got, the people on the outskirts of the College seem to stick their noses up at the people at the College, it was like their were two Communities rather than just one an Inner Community and a Outer Community. But i can also understand not wanting to give your Culture up.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I do think that it is the so called Ghetto culture that is hurting not just the Black Community but all communities in general, i used to go to school in a Black college town the college itself was fine for the most part but further out from the College you went the worse things got, the people out the outskirts of the College seem to stick their noses up at the people at the College, it was like their were two Communities rather than just one an Inner Community and a Outer Community. But i can also understand not wanting to give your Culture up.

So you think black ghetto culture is worth saving?

 

[NeoTemplar]

I do think that it is the so called Ghetto culture that is hurting not just the Black Community but all communities in general, i used to go to school in a Black college town the college itself was fine for the most part but further out from the College you went the worse things got, the people out the outskirts of the College seem to stick their noses up at the people at the College, it was like their were two Communities rather than just one an Inner Community and a Outer Community. But i can also understand not wanting to give your Culture up.

So you think black ghetto culture is worth saving?

From a Sociological standpoint i don't think it is but thats not really up to me, im just saying i can understand wanting to keep your Culture because whether good or bad its part of who you are.