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Mariner said:so sure that liberals, Democrats, and the MSM will try to spin this news? There's nothing to spin: this is unalloyed excellent news, and something we needed very badly. I hope it makes the leaders of the 100s of other insurgent groups that have sprung up in Iraq think about what they're doing and how many pieces they might end up in if they keep doing it. We're at war. Even as a relative pacifist, I have no trouble with our killing one of our main enemies. Why would I? Making liberals out to be on the same side as terrorists and insurgents is ridiculous. Just because we didn't support starting the war doesn't mean we don't want to win it now that it's begun.
Certified Cambridge Liberal Mariner.
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead. Bushs #1 boogie man in Iraq has been killed in an air strike. So the wars over, right? No. Well, the majority of the killing and violence must be over, right? No. Does anything really change? No.
The war in Iraq is primarily a civil war coupled with an insurgency pushing back against those who invaded and now occupy their country. Al Qaeda wasnt in Iraq until Bush blew it up. And now they have a new martyr to boot one who was built up by Bush himself
Mariner said:so sure that liberals, Democrats, and the MSM will try to spin this news? There's nothing to spin: this is unalloyed excellent news, and something we needed very badly. I hope it makes the leaders of the 100s of other insurgent groups that have sprung up in Iraq think about what they're doing and how many pieces they might end up in if they keep doing it. We're at war. Even as a relative pacifist, I have no trouble with our killing one of our main enemies. Why would I? Making liberals out to be on the same side as terrorists and insurgents is ridiculous. Just because we didn't support starting the war doesn't mean we don't want to win it now that it's begun.
Certified Cambridge Liberal Mariner.
CAN YOU POST THAT ONE MORE TIME? IT JUST LOOKS SO WEIRD UNDER YOUR NAME !jasendorf said:I'm going to have to agree with President Bush ...
CSM said:Hard to tell what the impact of this is going to be but it sure is NOT bad news. I have no doubt that some of the propaganda will portray him as martyr and hero....
Mariner said:so sure that liberals, Democrats, and the MSM will try to spin this news? There's nothing to spin: this is unalloyed excellent news, and something we needed very badly. I hope it makes the leaders of the 100s of other insurgent groups that have sprung up in Iraq think about what they're doing and how many pieces they might end up in if they keep doing it. We're at war. Even as a relative pacifist, I have no trouble with our killing one of our main enemies. Why would I? Making liberals out to be on the same side as terrorists and insurgents is ridiculous. Just because we didn't support starting the war doesn't mean we don't want to win it now that it's begun.
Certified Cambridge Liberal Mariner.
sitarro said:Jasen,
You truly are either an amazing provacature or one of the biggest dumbasses on the planet......could you step outside and shoot yourself so that your idiot gene stops now? Do it jasen, for humanity, like Sheila Jackson Lee I feel the vaccum that replaces a mind in your head is sucking the IQ of everyone that reads your inane posts.
Thanks in advance, you need to point the end of the barrel towards you, that's the end with a hole in it......thanks again.
Zarqawi death is an important U.S. victory
BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Knight Ridder Newspapers
What matters at least as much as the killing of al-Qaeda top terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq is that we, in America, appreciate it for the important battlefield victory it truly is.
Dubbed "the prince of al-Qaeda" by Osama bin Laden, Zarqawi was the apparently invincible face of a campaign of hideous carnage in Iraq - a barrage of kidnappings, shootings, bombings, assassinations and beheadings. He had carried this bloodshed over into his native Jordan and threatened to expand well beyond.
Part of the battle against such enemies is simply to reduce them in the public imagination to mortal scale. It was a smart move when the U.S. military a few weeks ago released video footage ridiculing Zarqawi as a pudgy thug who did not know how to handle a gun. It is a much greater leap that, thanks to a combination of Iraqi intelligence and U.S. military forces, he has now been killed, along with seven of his aides, in an air strike Wednesday on a house where they were hiding north of Baghdad.
On four levels, Zarqawi's death has global ramifications.
The first and most basic stems from the command position he enjoyed. While the leaders of al-Qaeda like to dispatch suicide bombers, they themselves are not inclined to suicide. Their larger strategy in launching terrorist attacks on everything from police stations to mosques to wedding parties is to destroy the bonds of trust on which decent societies depend, erode the will to fight back, and clear the way for a takeover of power. Bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, issue bloodthirsty messages from their hideaways, but they have not offered themselves up for the kind of sacrifices they require of their followers. It is the capture or killing of such terrorist kingpins - and Zarqawi was one - that serves as the real disruption and deterrent.
Second, Zarqawi was found with the help of Iraqis, some of whom have been dancing in the streets to celebrate his death. In Iraq, that is a sign not only of opposition to terrorists but of the courage to stand up and defy them. It is of a piece with the decisions of millions of Iraqis over the last two years to turn out, despite death threats, to vote. They are telling each other, and the world, that they are willing to take large risks to build a decent, free society.
Third, in raids that accompanied the strike on Zarqawi, U.S. and Iraqi forces have acquired what White House spokesman Tony Snow has described as a "treasure trove" of intelligence. The cars, explosives, guns, ammunition and safe houses required for al-Qaeda's murderous operations turn up courtesy of a network that points to other nodes. That may not immediately stop other operations already in place, but it can have a big effect down the road, leading to other top figures in the command.
Finally, this is an excellent moment to step back and look at just how far in this war we have come. Five years ago, al-Qaeda's commanders, from their safe haven in Afghanistan, were training thousands of terrorists and planning the Sept. 11 strike on a sleeping America. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein ruled by terror, with a record of exporting brutality and war from Baghdad at any opportunity to wherever he could reach - invading his neighbors, rewarding Palestinian suicide bombers, and openly rejoicing over Sept. 11.
Today, elected governments lead Afghanistan and Iraq, which has just completed its cabinet lineup. Bin Laden is afraid to venture out of hiding; Saddam, pulled from his spider hole, is on trial in Baghdad. And now, Zarqawi is dead, and the circumstances of his death may encourage decent people not only in Iraq but elsewhere to help hunt down his collaborators.
The greatest weakness of the United States in this war has been our tendency, within our own domestic debate, to quickly dismiss our victories and dwell on each al-Qaeda bombing or beheading as a sign of impending defeat. The death of Zarqawi needs to be understood as a sign that the deeper currents are running our way.
The ClayTaurus said:Didn't anyone ever tell you?
Hell isn't hot.
Hell is actually frozen over.
Hell is standing in 18 inches of snow in an infinite parking lot naked, tasked with shoveling it all out.
Kathianne said:
sitarro said:Thanks Kath,
Great article by an author with a real understanding of how certain events combined with others will help a courageous people regain their country and make it an oasis for others in the region to emulate. Being able to send your little girls to school to learn about the people around the world, to be free to achieve greatness with a new vision of the world that can only be seen with eyes that have been covered by tyranny your whole life, to finally start to feel that there is hope for tomorrow ....that it will be better than today. Only positive things can come from the awareness that you are actually finally free to become who you want to be. Watch out for the Iraqi soccer team at the next Olympics.
I wept with joy when I saw the statue of Saddam fall, again when I saw the miles of defiant Iraqis lined up to vote and proudly hold up their purple stained fingers, and as I type this I weep with the joy that this assholes death might keep some children in Iraq from being murdered on their way to school.
We in the west have had our freedom for so long that we are raising a generation that takes it for granted and just assumes it will always be there, that is with the exception of an incredible group of former kids that have earned our respect as Men and Women in our military, they weren't drafted , they saw the need and asked to go.....my thanks to all of you, you are the pride of our country! You are helping change the world....but you know that already, you're there witnessing it.
ZARQAWI, KA-POWEE: A WIN FOR THE HOME FRONT
By JOHN PODHORETZ
June 9, 2006 -- THE killing of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi yesterday was enormously important, and not only because al Qaeda lost its longtime leader in Iraq and the insurgency lost its chief strategist.
This action, taken in the midst of this highly unusual war, was the equivalent of a victory in a major battle in a more conventional conflict.
A country can win battles and lose wars, as the voices of gloom were already reminding us only minutes after the announcement of Zarqawi's demise. But wars can't be won unless battles are won.
American forces have won battles during the Iraq war - to name just two, the takeover of Fallujah and the roust-out of terrorists from the town of Tal Afar.
But since our objective in this war is not to take and hold territory or advance geographically, these victories have seemed isolated and therefore haven't taken hold of the public imagination. And one reason it is so important to win battles is to give heart to the public at home and give them a sense that the sacrifices are not being made in vain - that we can and will win in the end.
Another reason Fallujah and Tal Afar didn't do much to stir public opinion is that the nature of the battlefield is hard to understand. After all, our war is not with the people of Iraq but with terrorists who are trying to halt the political progress of that shattered country. So we are defending Iraqis while killing other Iraqis - as well as foreigners like Zarqawi who have taken up the cause of jihad there.
And our soldiers are not being killed in battle - in the manner history has taught us is the noble death of the warrior - but as they drive down roads. These acts of assassination seem so pointless and random that they suggest our soldiers are getting injured and dying for no reason, in circumstances that smack of the grossest futility.
The killing of Zarqawi is therefore a key moment in this war because it is a visible, comprehensible marker of progress against the terrorists in Iraq.
For three years now, we've been told that things are getting better - with elections conducted, areas calmed and a million Iraqis moved from exile back home to help bring about a new future for their country. But why wasn't the terrorism letting up?
The Bush administration would warn, properly, that around every milestone moment and every effort to move toward democracy, terrorism would increase. But one could hardly fault the American people for wondering about the purpose of this whole business as this progress-equals-more-terrorism formula continued to hold true. If good news only led to more killings and more death, what good could come of it?
Now, finally, there is some plain reason for hope.
Wars are not machines that run by themselves. They are planned by generals and strategists. Whatever happens from here on in will have to happen without the man who wrote the enemy's audacious playbook for fighting the insurgent war in Iraq - a playbook that included the strategy of killing Shiites indiscriminately in hopes of provoking a civil war.
Zarqawi may have trained his adjutants well. Maybe they can pick up where he left off with no difficulty. But that's by no means a sure thing.
And more heartening is the news that at the same moment Zarqawi was hit, U.S. forces staged 17 simultaneous raids against al Qaeda/insurgent targets in and around Baghdad.
Major Gen. Bill Caldwell told reporters, "In those 17 raids last night, a tremendous amount of information and intelligence was collected and is presently being exploited and utilized for further use. I mean, it was a treasure trove, no question."
With their general gone, their safehouses destroyed and their future plans possibly exposed, the insurgents are in some trouble. They aren't defeated by any means. But they are impaired.
And now the American people have something to grab onto that may help make the war in Iraq seem winnable - a clear victory against an unambiguous, unmistakable evil.
Kathianne said:Thanks Sitarro, C. Rosette should have received the Pulitzer for her breaking, basically single handedly the Oil for Food Scandal, but that award doesn't mean what it once did. She is one of the best reporters of our day.
You know, I think the problem isn't really with most of 'the kids' as far as the GWOT goes, but rather their parents. Most young people I know have been very supportive, after all, they or their friends are serving. All 3 of my own kids have more than one friend already over in Iraq or Afghanistan, all of these kids came from upper middle class families, all but 1 already graduated from university, 2 from West Point.
sitarro said:Good point, I probably painted with too broad a brush by trying to emphasize the difference with the over privileged kids that live in my area and the brave Men and Women that are serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere else....that does point back to the parents.
My nephew knows a girl who, when given the keys to a new black Corvette for her 17th birthday, she threw them back at her father because she wanted a Porsche! The high school's parking lot is filled with BMWs, Jettas, and yes even a Porsche or 5, the teacher's lot is filled with the opposite. It boggles my mind to think what their parents are actually thinking by giving such ridiculously expensive vehicles to kids. The only challenge to their creativety is what outrageously tacky and expensive rims can they destroy the look of their car with. That and what movie are they going to watch on the in dash DVD screen, all while yaking on their cell phones..AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
I don't even need to mention the gang members that prey on the weak in our society, that will murder for a Bronco jacket or a pair of Nikes, a lousy rock of cocaine, or some silly spinner rims. The idea that I felt a need to get a concealed weapon license to feel I have a chance against the low lifes whose population is expanding everyday. The idiots whose only ambition in life is to get over on their fellow human beings.
Obviously there is also great things being done by the unseen in our population, maybe they need the recognition that the glory hounds in professional sports demand. I was given a little hope when I watched the National Spelling Bee on prime time. We need to see more scholastic praise and less of the thousands of basketball games played each year that are just in the final four championships.
Kathianne said:Funny thing, one of these kids had basically everything handed to him while younger, but his family was still very disciplined and supportive. He got a smaller hummer when he turned 16. They have $$$ to burn, but they do not emotionally neglect their kids, I think that is the difference. He was a mentor to my youngest son in high school, captain of cross country team.
I know his mother was proud/nervous when he was accepted to West Point, she told me so and that was in 1998. I spoke to her during the week of 9/11, she knew immediately what it meant, but was firmly supportive of her son. He graduated in 2002, in Iraq now. I know he's been working on Master's in history.
sitarro said:I'm happy to here about the exceptions to what I see, I see the same in my nieces and nephews, the parents and those that act as mentors(great teachers included!) make all the difference in the world.
Zarqawi's Death: An Important Opportunity for New Iraq
by Austin Bay
June 8, 2006
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's death is, like Branch Rickey's definition of luck, the residue of design.
A U.S. Air Force strike on a farmhouse near the Iraqi town of Baqubah killed Zarqawi, known as Z-Man to his pursuers. His deeds mark him as a savage mass murderer and a religious zealot with a mile-wide streak of megalomania. He was also a gambler, an operational terrorist "commander" who sought to incite a sectarian civil war, theorizing a Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq would (in his words) "rally Sunni Arabs" to al-Qaida.
Zarqawi understood his own strategic dilemma. He knew an Iraqi democracy means the defeat of his brand of Islamo-fascism. In a letter from Zarqawi to his al-Qaida superiors, captured in early 2004, the terrorist chieftain wrote: When "the sons of this land (Iraq) will be the authority ... this is the democracy. We will have no pretexts (i.e., for waging a terror war)."
The nickname Z-Man may suggest a Hollywood thriller with a conclusive chase scene. The hunt for al-Qaida's Prince of Iraq, however, has been long, complex and frustrating. In 2004, when I served in Iraq, Z-Man topped Multi-National Corps-Iraq's wanted list. One of the special operations liaison officers attached to Corps' headquarters would greet me in the morning with a wry, "We were busy last night." The special ops personnel stay busy -- but hunting senior al-Qaida leaders ranked as the highest priority. The corps' senior special ops liaison officer told me the week I left Iraq: "We'll get Zarqawi, eventually. But it's a hard, slow job finding one guy with the kind of protection he has. It's not a Hollywood movie."
The hard, slow work of collecting and analyzing intelligence leads might yield an ephemeral intelligence breakthrough, one requiring near-instantaneous rapid reaction in order to launch a successful strike on the terrorist and his cohorts.
Zarqawi evaded several close encounters of the lethal kind with Coalition special operations forces. This week, Z-Man's luck ran out.
Zarqawi's death is not a major military victory, but it is a major political victory for the Iraqis and the new Iraqi government. Terrorist car bombs will continue to explode and murder men, women and children. Iraqi commentators, among them Omar of the Web log Iraq-the-Model, believe al-Qaida will launch revenge strikes.
Zarqawi's death is not a turning point. The War on Terror is a war of ideological and political attrition, and in wars of abrasion there are few turning points, only long trends. The long-term trends in Iraq are positive -- an emerging democracy in the heart of the politically dysfunctional Arab Muslim Middle East is astonishing news.
Zarqawi's death does give Iraq a significant psychological boost, and provides Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's new government with a huge political and media opportunity.
Maliki and his government are building a democratic political process -- a difficult job where successes are incremental. Removing Zarqawi forwards that process, in several ways.
Maliki promised the Iraqi people he will improve the internal security situation. Beginning in late 2003, Zarqawi attempted to ignite a sectarian civil war between Iraqi Shias and Sunnis. Maliki can use Zarqawi's death to help heal those sectarian rifts in Iraq.
Zarqawi's death serves as an important media and political touchstone for the new Iraqi government. The successful counter-terror operation focused international press attention on the prime minister's appointment of a new minister of defense, minister of interior and minister of national security. His cabinet is now complete.
Maliki must take further advantage of the moment. Terror bombs draw large headlines -- and that's understandable, for the bombs are dramatic news. Over time, however, media focus on bombs and terrorist massacre has tended to obscure or limit recognition of Iraq's incremental successes -- the daily, meticulous, trial-and-error efforts it takes to create a democratic state and win a war. Bombs have media sizzle -- an explosion gives a TV producer a "hot image" that attracts eyeballs. Bricks lack sizzle, and a story that builds brick-by-brick is tough to cover, especially in a 24-7 news cycle.
Zarqawi's "termination" is a paradoxical headline -- a dramatic event that turns eyes and critical interest toward Iraq's new government and the slow but remarkable successes that created it.
Mariner said:What they're doing is trying to undo the vast spin which got us into this war--
Mariner said:any way to spin this news negatively, unless you're a follower of "Z-man." Even OBL is probably glad to see him gone.
When Democrats point out that this was not OBL, however, they are not "spinning." What they're doing is trying to undo the vast spin which got us into this war--President Bush's bizarre decision to react to a bombing by Saudi Wahhabis by attacking a former ally, Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Bush spent months conflating the two--to the point that he once slipped and said "Saddam Hussein" when he meant to say "OBL." In other words, in his own mind, they became one and the same.
Bit by bit, inch by inch, despite massive stonewalling, the evidence has surfaced that every SINGLE piece of "evidence" Bush used to support this misdirection was false, almost every piece was known false at the time, and Bush's team purposefully removed fudge factors to make their case to Congress stronger. Bush admitted that the uranium from Niger story was false. An investigation showed that the centrifuge tube evidence was known false. And the German gov't told us that Curveball was an unreliable drunk.
Here on USMB you have people advocating the torture of relatives of terrorists. Yet, when OBL committed 9/11, we assisted his relatives in leaving the country, rather than arresting them for questioning or torture. Why? Because we have an extremely dysfunctional relationship with the Saudis. We're the addict, and they're the dealer. They have the oil we need, and, because we pay for it, they have the $$ we need to keep our deficit-based economy going.
Instead of invading Iraq, we should have been forcing Saudi Arabia to destroy the roots of Wahhabi fundamentalism, the branch of Islam that created Al Qaeda. Remember, 15 hijackers were Saudi, and 0 were Iraqi. But we can't "force" the Saudis to do anything--we need them more than they need us. Our massive deficit spending under Republicans in the past 6 years has done more harm to our independent strength than any other action. Asia and the Middle East each own around $1 trillion in our debt--if they call in even a tenth of that, the dollar will plunge, and the U.S. will enter a Greater Depression than 1929, instantly--and everyone knows this. Hence, we make nice with our real enemies, and kick around the weak kid on the block who makes an easy target: Saddam.
So is the MSM spinning, or is it trying to return us to the reality that the "enemy" we chose was not the enemy who attacked us? If the MSM had done their job better in the first place, instead of being cowed by Bush's aggressive cowboy stance (which even he's now apologized for), they woudl have uncovered the lack of "secret" evidence to justify the war, and we could have avoided this bloodbath.
Now that we are there, however, we have to win, and no one, no matter how liberal or Democratic or anti-war or anti-Bush should be questioning that. I certainly do not.
Mariner.
