A Rational Discussion on the Issues?

Let's take this one by one.

Obama proposes to raise taxes on people who make more than 250,000.00 a year to 39%

This is true. He says he would restore the top two income tax rates to their pre-2001 levels of 36 percent and 39.6 percent. (Currently, they're 33 percent and 35 percent.)

But this of course does not lead to a higher unemployment rate. Actually, if you compare unemployment rates from when the tax rate was 39%, you'll find there were more people working then than there are now with these lower tax rates in place.

When Bush took office in 2000 the unemployment rate was hovering around 4%.

He enacted his first tax cut in mid 2001. By the end of 2001 the unemployment rate was 5.7%.

By early 2003 the unemployment rate had climbed into the low 6% range and stayed there for half the year.

Bush enacted the second tax cut in mid 2003. By the end of 2003 the unemployment rate was still right at 6%.

Fast forward to 2008 and the unemployment rate for August of this year was 6.1%

Kind of makes you long for those 4% unemployment rates which were in place for most of the 90's.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/UNRATE.txt

adjusted payroll tax to 52.2%

I'm not really sure what you mean by 52.2% and I'm going to presume that was a typo. The current payroll tax in place is 6.2% on all incomes up to $102,000.00 a year. (12.4% total with half going to employer and half going to employee)

This means if I make $102,000.00, I must pay a 6.2% payroll tax on 100% of my income. (This bracket includes 97% of all working households)

If I currently make $250,000.00 a year or more I only have to pay a payroll tax on less than 50% of my earnings.

Obama's plan wants to keep the 6.2% on income up to $102,000.00 and he does not want to raise it on anyone who makes above that but below $250,000.00. (Once again, this won't impact the majority of working households.)

But he would like to apply that 6.2% to all income above the $250,000.00 mark as well. These dollars would be used to shore up Social Security which at its current rate will be obsolete in no time.

I guess I just don't understand why it is OK that someone who makes $100,000.00 a year should pay 6.2% payroll tax on 100% of their income, yet someone who makes over $250,000.00 pays on less than 50%.

Obama: Payroll tax on incomes above $250,000 - Decision '08 - MSNBC.com

capital gains from 15 to 28%

This is an area in which I do not agree with Obama. History has taught us that when you raise the capital gains tax the government actually brings in less dollars.

While he is once again only implementing this on people and businesses which make more than $250,000 (a very small portion of the population), I still disagree with it.

I don't have the link, but I recall Charlie Gibson really grilling Obama on this point in a past interview.

and the estate tax from 0 to 55%.

First, McCain and Obama both believe it should not revert to its pre-2001 level as it is required to do in 2010; in addition they both believe the tax should not be fully repealed. (They understand it brings in too much money to the government.)

Obama wants to freeze the estate tax at its 2009 levels (45%) with estate value cutoff at $3.5M for individuals and $7M for married couples. By exempting everything under $7M, 99.7% of all estates would not be taxed.

McCain differs in that he would like to put in place a 15% estate tax with a $10M exemption. This also will only affect a very small percentage of the population.

The estate tax: McCain vs. Obama - Aug. 6, 2008

Tell do you think only rich people own stock, inherit estates, pay FICA on their payroll?

Once again, all of these programs only affect people making more than $250,000.00 a year.

In all fairness, if you are one of the top 1% of income earners in the US then I can understand why Obama is not your candidate. I will be the first to admit it, he is going to raise taxes on that top 1%.

A recent report by the Citizens for Tax Justice states that if Obama's payroll tax plan had been in place in 2007, only 1.1% of taxpayers would have been affected by it.

If you'll visit this link:

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/obamasocsec20080707.pdf

You can read the whole report.

Like I stated, I understand that people vote with their pocket books and if I was in the 1.1% of the wealthiest in the country I would be voting McCain as well.

But the belief that Obama's tax policy will have a dramatic affect on most of working America is simply not true.
 
Last edited:
the way I look at it is even IF Obama went back to the tax system used under Clinton we can't be too bad off, can we? we did have a surplus at the end of his tenure at President afterall...
 
the way I look at it is even IF Obama went back to the tax system used under Clinton we can't be too bad off, can we? we did have a surplus at the end of his tenure at President afterall...

Fire up the Delorean folks !! We're going back in time !!!
(remember the prime directive ! )
 
the way I look at it is even IF Obama went back to the tax system used under Clinton we can't be too bad off, can we? we did have a surplus at the end of his tenure at President afterall...

While this does make logical sense, there is no way we will reach a surplus under our next president, regardless of who is elected, because of the massive debt our country has racked up in the past 8 years.

At this point we are fully subsidized by foreign powers and with the largest debt in our nation's history, it will takes years to pull out of it.
 
While this does make logical sense, there is no way we will reach a surplus under our next president, regardless of who is elected, because of the massive debt our country has racked up in the past 8 years.

At this point we are fully subsidized by foreign powers and with the largest debt in our nation's history, it will takes years to pull out of it.
The best way to pull out of it is to stop paying huge dollars to obtain imported consumable goods, like oil: drill baby drill!
 
I personally don't believe in that kind of thing. the best thing is to go the candidates themselves.

We are emotionally invested in our ideas. We have the ideas we have because of the community we make for ourselves. Thus what might be a "non partisan" for me site would be a hate site for others here.

I do believe in doing your own research and thinking through things yourself rather than having others do it for you. You know what interests you, and what hot buttons you are looking for.

Bear in mind, most of the hits Obama has taken over the last two weeks have been because his own friends wouldn't listen to him, and and talked over him and destroyed his message.[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5TV_pdVtWc"]Monty Python goodness[/ame]

Of course, we get the kind of campaign we get because we buy the crap rather than the good stuff. If we actually went to the campaigns and read the materials and evaluated them honestly the campaigns would be a lot more boring. It is the sex that sells. The campaigns go there because that is where we go.
 
And lumber. And cars.
Lumber, yes. I was waiting for a materials to be loaded into my truck at a local yard one day and took the time to look around and read the labels of the dimension lumber that was staged there. You'd expect stuff from Canada but I also saw lots of stuff from all over Europe. And this is in NC where lumber is #2 or 3 crop of all the states. If we can't compete with Europe on lumber consumed 10 miles from where its grown then there's a definite problem somewhere.
 
The Obamian proposed tax increases are fairly modest in terms of who gets hit with them.

Of course, if you're a scion expecting to inherit more than $3.5 million soon, and you happen to make more than $250K a year, and you were planning on taking capital gain, too, I quite understand why Obama isn't your guy.

As to capital gains?

I wonder if the 15% to 28% takes into account long versus short term capital gains? I doubt it.

Seems to me also that longer term capital gains should always have been (and to my knowledge they never were) adjusted for inflation.

In fact, if a capital gain is made meaningless by inflation, I think you should be able to take a tax break.

If you sell those underproforming stocks, even if in actual dollars you've made some modest gain, but when inflation is taken into account you've lost purchasing power, you should be able to write off the loss.





I think that might enhance stock turnovers and despite the adjustments for inflation, might still coax reluctant sellers to let go of those stocks and take their profits, too.

No idea about what levels they should be set at.
 
Last edited:
the way I look at it is even IF Obama went back to the tax system used under Clinton we can't be too bad off, can we? we did have a surplus at the end of his tenure at President afterall...

We had lower Year over Year (YoY) spending under Clinton too. It was the combination of lower spending and higher taxes that generated a surplus. Obama isn't going to cut spending and McCain will only focus on a quarter of one percent represented by "bad" earmarks. There is no shot at a balanced budget under either man.
 
The best way to pull out of it is to stop paying huge dollars to obtain imported consumable goods, like oil: drill baby drill!

The price for oil is set by the world market and stock ownership has no borders. Explain why it is better to pay huge dollars for domestic oil when the net effect is the same?
 
The price for oil is set by the world market and stock ownership has no borders. Explain why it is better to pay huge dollars for domestic oil when the net effect is the same?

Excellent question.

Is the oil pumped from the USA guaranteed to stay in the USA?

I dont think so.

So its impact on world wide prices will be nominal.

But one supposes that ol pumped out of the USA, by US companies, will generate more tax revenues in the US, plus the money made by domestic oil companies and paid to their employees will stay (or at least be spent the first time) in the USA, too.
 
Excellent question.

Is the oil pumped from the USA guaranteed to stay in the USA?

I dont think so.

So its impact on world wide prices will be nominal.

But one supposes that ol pumped out of the USA, by US companies, will generate more tax revenues in the US, plus the money made by domestic oil companies and paid to their employees will stay (or at least be spent the first time) in the USA, too.

Maybe, but the time frame involved the numbers will be small then if new CART restrictions are put in place you will see displacement wipe out any gains. I have no problem with drilling-I'm a Texas god-damnit-but the notions that it will drive down prices or some how make us energy independent are pure fallacy. As for more tax revenue. That's a good reason for conservatives to rally behind it huh!
 
What we need to do is stop and consider what we want in a candidate, rather than we just don't like their party. That is, if we are being honest to ourselves.

For example, are Earmarks a bad thing or a good thing? Maybe it is the responsibility of a politician to grab all he can for his constituents. Therefor McCain might be considered lazy. Does a politician who spend all his time shaking down the money tree for his district really do that much of a disservice?

There are a lot of inter related issues in the drilling debate. The Republicans have framed it in terms of national security. That is not the end of it. The Democrats have framed it in terms of responsible stewardship. And that is not the end of that either.

My personal preference is to ride a bike to work. I live two miles away, and I just like riding my bike. I am a bit of an evangelist, as I think everyone else who can ought to as well. I am nearly 50, so it isn't that hard. I do my shopping usually on the way home. I am now single, so I only have to shop for me. Shopping for more people on the bike would be harder, I know.

Do we really need to send all that cash that we spend on oil to kleptocratic theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia? Do we really, for that matter, need to make a mess of out our environment either?

The reality I see is that Petroleum is still substantially cheaper than biofuels. the folks who do chemestry are working really hard to change that, but they haven't yet. So that is the choice we have to make, rationally.

I personally think spending money on regimes like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc etc is dangerous. the caribou are just going to have to live with it. But that is my feeling on the matter, Your mileage may vary.

But we have to recognize these are both valid choices and we have to come down on one or the other. It really is your call
 

Forum List

Back
Top