Zone1 A Major Difference of the Catholic Faith

[Meriweather]

If I claim you are my savior, are you in my debt?

Yep. You put a claim on me that I must save you. You put me in your debt, whether or not I agreed or had a covenant or contract with you.

On the other hand, suppose I see you in danger, and although I am not in your debt, you are a fellow human being, and as such, I owe you assistance. I am not in your debt beforehand, nor are you in my debt afterward because I merely did what any other human being would do for another.

 

[Meriweather]

It was Jesus Christ that said He was my Savior, all I did was believe Him. And love Him for it.

You presented him with feelings.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I believe the answer to that is no. Irish Ram appears to believe that yes we will pollute heaven, but God won't notice.

Personal insults about me aside, what would I pollute Heaven with? I am white as snow in God's eyes:

Isaiah 1:18-19 “Though your sins are like scarlet, I will make them as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, I will make them as white as wool
If I wasn't, I wouldn't be in Heaven to begin with, let alone pollute it. Sin doesn't enter Heaven.

So, what pollution of yours wasn't Christ able to wash away with His pure blood? If Christ's perfect record isn't pure enough to rid you of your pollution, what higher power of purification does get rid of it in Purgatory? And what is your role in the process?

You might find this comforting. It is the how and why that saves us:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God...

 

[The Irish Ram]

You presented him with feelings.

No, I believed. My faith in Him saves me. My love for Him is because He loved me first.

Yep. You put a claim on me that I must save you. You put me in your debt, whether or not I agreed or had a covenant or contract with you

That's not at all correct. What I claim has no effect on you whatsoever. If it did I'd be claiming you were my maid, and you'd be here scrubbing my kitchen floor.

 

[Meriweather]

Personal insults aside, what would I pollute Heaven with? I am white as snow in God's eyes:

There was no "personal insult". Your belief is that God does not notice any sins or imperfections in you. You did not say that there are no sins or imperfections in you that you will bring with you the day you die, only that God does not see them.

 

[Meriweather]

That's not at all correct.

Finally! What you have been saying about me and Catholic belief is "not at all correct", it is your own interpretation.

However, you did say you were claiming something from me. And that does put me in your debt if you have a claim on me.

The point I was making is that anyone can change words (as you have been doing) and then state--due to your own change in words--that I "really" believe or am "really" saying something that is nowhere close to what I wrote.

Therefore I gave you an example of what you are doing to me. By you "claiming" Jesus as Lord and Savior, I pointed out then you must be putting Jesus in your debt and therefore he must pay up by allowing you into heaven.

Catholics are no more "earning" their way to heaven than you are placing Jesus in your debt. Correct?

 

[The Irish Ram]

There was no "personal insult

Irish Ram appears to believe that yes we will pollute heaven, but God won't notice.

^ the insult.

Irish Ram is smart enough to know that if she is in Heaven, she is pollution free.

John 8:36

You did not say that there are no sins or imperfections in you that you will bring with you the day you die, only that God does not see them.

I have said over and over and over. My sins, in total, were nailed to the cross right up to the second I take my last breath here and my first breath in Heaven. And God didn't say He'd try not to notice my sins, HE SAID HE:
Put them behind Him.
Put them as far from Him as the East is from the West.
Is merciful to my unrighteousness, and will remember my sins no more

Col. 2 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross”
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins no more
It's like you don't believe a thing Christ and His Father say!

inally! What you have been saying about me and Catholic belief is "not at all correct", it is your own interpretation

Nope. What I said was you believing that if I call you my savior, you are obligated to become my savior. That's not just incorrect, that's nuts! If I call you my maid, are you obligated to scrub my floors? Let me know, cause..

I didn't obligate Jesus into taking the cross for me by calling Him my Savior. He made Himself my Savior and gave me His pure record to enter Heaven with years ago. He gave it to me as a gift.

 

[Anathema]

When it comes to the afterlife, I take it you feel you are due something in this life instead?

Not so much instead but in addition to. Faith and Works are two different things. If a deity expects BOTH, then they need to be willing to pony up in both this world and the next. If they only expect Faith, then that’s a different story.

 

[Meriweather]

Nope. What I said was you believing that if I call you my savior, you are obligated to become my savior. That's not just incorrect, that's nuts! If I call you my maid, are you obligated to scrub my floors? Let me know, cause..

STOP!

I am tired of these rabbit holes! You don't understand! At all.

My point: I was describing the differences between the Catholic faith and some other Christian denominations. There is a difference between a faith that says claim Jesus as Lord and savior and all is good. After death you will wake up in heaven.

The Catholic faith covers more. It goes back to the creation of the world and Adam and Eve choosing disobedience over obedience which resulted in a fallen world and a broken humanity. Catholic belief is that Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the entire world. Man's disobedience brought about one way of life; man's obedience brings about another way of life--the Way of Salvation.

The Catholic faith teaches the New Testament/Covenant we have with God--i.e., repentance for the forgiveness of sins. All sins we turn from, we are forgiven. Teaching and living this Good News (Gospel) brings salvation into this world where God's will is done here on earth as it is in heaven. That is Kingdom living which begins in this life and is eternal. This is the Covenant into which we enter. Daily, we discern the will of God and follow it (God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven).

This is not "earning" salvation, it is living salvation. In entering this Covenant/Testament with God, we owe our allegiance to God and living the ways of God.

This should not be difficult for you to understand. But immediately you change the word 'owe' to 'debt' and insist this is not living the Covenant/Testament but "earning" salvation. So, I gave you an example of what you did, and how easy it is for anyone to do the same--take a word, change the word or its meaning and sanctimoniously announce what is "really" happening. So I took the word "claim" and showed that "claim" also means debt is involved because someone is claiming something from another that rightfully belongs to them. Get it? (If you don't, a claim can be an assertion (Jesus is my savior) or a claim can mean something is yours and doesn't belong to others.)

Now, if your belief is that you can spend the day that you die sinning, but as you claimed Jesus as your savior, God will never see those sins because they are nailed to a cross, then that is your belief. If you believe that discerning the will of God and living that is merely an attempt to "earn" salvation, that's fine, as well. My point is that others (without trying to earn anything, see salvation in an entirely different light. And that perspective is what I've been trying to present.

 

[Meriweather]

Not so much instead but in addition to. Faith and Works are two different things. If a deity expects BOTH, then they need to be willing to pony up in both this world and the next. If they only expect Faith, then that’s a different story.

I am wondering what kind of payment you are expecting. I see examples of God's grace and blessings throughout the day. I have never been able to give to God without what I give rebounding back to me in a larger amount.

 

[Anathema]

I am wondering what kind of payment you are expecting. I see examples of God's grace and blessings throughout the day. I have never been able to give to God without what I give rebounding back to me in a larger amount

I certainly don’t. Then again I’ve been fucked over by God since the instant of my conception. More than 50 years.

My father got screwed over even worse… he was the most good, decent and faithful individual I’ve ever met, and the moment he was going to be able to focus on himself and my mom only he ends up with skin cancer and dead less than three years later after literally wasting away.

 

[Donald H]

It hit me this morning when I read this in a post by The Irish Ram:



Compare this to, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God's Kingdom is flourishing in heaven and the will of God is being done, salvation ever present.

It is not heaven that is fallen, it is Earth. We wake up on earth. In the Catholic faith we wake up each morning with the goal of building the Kingdom of God here on earth, with seeking and doing the will of God in our present lives.
Thinking that salvation is as The Irish Ram explains...


...misses God's plan for Earth, misses Jesus' point of salvation for this entire planet. We are not meant to endure a fallen life on a fallen planet until we wake up in heaven. We, as God's children are builders, are creators of God's Kingdom here on earth, human leaders of the Way of Salvation here and now.

There's no bigger difference in the Catholic faith than their loss of faith in Genesis, with their recent declared belief in Darwinian evolution.

Catholics should be putting more emphasis on the notion that both creation and evolution can be possible. Their argument has been less than convincing.

 

[Meriweather]

There's no bigger difference in the Catholic faith than their loss of faith in Genesis, with their recent declared belief in Darwinian evolution.

Catholics should be putting more emphasis on the notion that both creation and evolution can be possible. Their argument has been less than convincing.

You are almost a hundred years behind the times. Already done. People are free to make up their own minds about how God accomplished his creation. Did it happen in 24-hours? Was it accomplished over millions of years? Study the information available and come to your own conclusion.

 

[Donald H]

You are almost a hundred years behind the times. Already done. People are free to make up their own minds about how God accomplished his creation. Did it happen in 24-hours? Was it accomplished over millions of years? Study the information available and come to your own conclusion.

You misunderstood that I was only offering advice, based on my belief that the other churches in America haven't sold out on Genesis.

The details on whether creation or evolution took place in 24 hours or 24 million years, is another topic for debate.

I have no interest in a confrontational discussion with you. I completely understand your stated position to be what you represent. I'm working witih trying to understand the argument for both creation and evolution being possible.

 

[The Irish Ram]

This should not be difficult for you to understand. But immediately you change the word 'owe' to 'debt'

Owe: verb intransitive ~ to be in debt.
You owe God, then you don't owe God. Which is why I finally told you to pick a lane. And why others brought it to your attention;

Are you not the one who proposed this idea in the first place, that you're now arguing against?

There was no "personal insult". Your belief is that God does not notice any sins or imperfections in you. You did not say that there are no sins or imperfections in you that you will bring with you the day you die, only that God does not see them.

There is no scripture that says Jesus nailed our sin to the cross except for the last day. No where in the Bible does it say that we are responsible for getting rid of residual sin.
There are scriptures that tell you that God does not remember the sin that Christ removed from us. I have provided them. You overlook them.
I tried to put this thread to rest by the 4th post and damn if you didn't pick it right back up within minutes. You are the one painting yourself into a corner. Your opinion gets it's feelings hurt when scripture shows up. I can't help that.

 

[Meriweather]

Owe: verb intransitive ~ to be in debt.
You owe God, then you don't owe God. Which is why I finally told you to pick a lane. And why others brought it to your attention;

Yawn. And I compared it to what is owed to a marriage, an employer, a child, a contract. None of those involve going into debt, do they.

 

[Meriweather]

There is no scripture that says Jesus nailed our sin to the cross except for the last day. No where in the Bible does it say that we are responsible for getting rid of residual sin.
There are scriptures that tell you that God does not remember the sin that Christ removed from us. I have provided them. You overlook them.
I tried to put this thread to rest by the 4th post and damn if you didn't pick it right back up within minutes. You are the one painting yourself into a corner. Your opinion gets it's feelings hurt when scripture shows up. I can't help that.

My feelings are hurt? First you tell me what I am "really" saying and now you are escalating to what I am "really" feeling. (Psst. My husband will be glad to testify I have been laughing my head off over how you change words and meanings to something else. But if it makes you feel better, I'll pretend to be "hurt".)

 

[The Irish Ram]

Yawn. And I compared it to what is owed to a marriage, an employer, a child, a contract. None of those involve going into debt, do they.

Take it up with Webster:
OWE:
be in debt (to)
be indebted (to)
be in arrears (to)
be under an obligation (to)
be obligated (to)
be beholden to
be in debit
be overdrawn (by)
be in the red
be in debt to the tune of

it is God who helps us to repay what is owed him.

Why should we expect to be rewarded for repaying what we owe

^ That is what you said, and have been back peddling on ever since.
My response was, and is, and will be, Our redemption is a gift. No matter how you try to rework what you said about repaying God for what you owe, the truth remains:

Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
gift ~ a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present

As for the sin you think Christ didn't cover:
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, < All, as in, all.
All ~ the greatest possible amount of a quality.

 

[Meriweather]

That is what you said, and have been back peddling on ever since.

No back peddling. However, I get that you have never promised God a thing, therefore you do not owe it to him to keep any promise. It is all about God serving you, and you never lifting a finger...after all, you owe God nothing and you delight in that.

When I was hungry...thirsty...in need--your response is, "I owe you nothing!"

When Jesus calls for repentance, your response: "But I don't owe you repentance because I owe nothing. You nailed my sins to the cross."

People who are not part of a covenant owe nothing. And you appear to rejoice in not being part of a covenant. So be it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Do you just completely shun scripture?

No back peddling. However, I get that you have never promised God a thing, therefore you do not owe it to him to keep any promise. It is all about God serving you, and you never lifting a finger...after all, you owe God nothing and you delight in that.

When I was hungry...thirsty...in need--your response is, "I owe you nothing!"

When Jesus calls for repentance, your response: "But I don't owe you repentance because I owe nothing. You nailed my sins to the cross."

People who are not part of a covenant owe nothing. And you appear to rejoice in not being part of a covenant. So be it.

Boy, you don't seem to be all laughing your head off. You sound kinda testy.
And you don't get jack.
As for the conversation you made up in your head, I must be doing something right. I have been blessed on top of blessed on top of blessed my whole life, and I thank Him constantly. I am beholden to Christ for everything I have. Except my redemption. That was a gift. And there isn't one thing I can do to add to it!

gift ~ a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.