A Few Metaphysical Riddles I Was Trying To Solve.....

[amrchaos]

I was reading another thread and a couple of claims that the God of Judaic theology exists. Understand, the God of Judaic-based Theology is basically the God of Judaism with some additions(or subtractions!) depending on which member of the set you choose to look at. For instance, Islam and Mormonism are part of this set, as well as any cult and minor religion that makes use of some of Judaic theology. However, Scientology is not part of this set, despite being a Western Religion(A religion started in a western nation).


The reason I make the above distinction is because we need some "clearer" definition of God in these riddles. And without these restrictions, there are logical escape clauses that I wish to avoid.

So here goes:

1) Is it necessary for God to provide miracles or send messangers to prove God's existence?

2)How is a "miracle" proof of anything? For instance, how do we not know there is some "non-divine being" that performed the "miracle" for its own reasons?

3)Does "knowing God" undermine free will? If so then please consider the following:

a) How does one explain Lucifer's rebellion against God? Lucifer knows God, yet Lucifer "disobeys" God. Is this "disobedience" Gods Will? Therefore, is Lucifer an agent of God because Lucifer "know" god exist? Or is it possible that you have to "completely" know God as well as his existence" which is quite different from "Knowing of God's existance"?

b)If the statement is rewritten as: "If you know of God, then you do not have free will"
Then does that mean "If you have free will, then you do not know of god?".
Do you think that is absurd?

4)Is it necessary to "Believe in God" in order to be part of a Judaic-based religion? Or is possible that a person can be considered a member of a religion despite having fundamental difference with its theology?



Now what I think. Next post.

 

[amrchaos]

First # 1


1) I say "No".

In fact, providing miracles and sending messangers without communing directly with the individual in an intelligent manner is actually counter-productive!!

One reason is that doing this actually leaves each person God wants to know him open to possible misidentification by "others" that wish to harm the individual!!

Another is how it effects the relationship is effected between the individual and God!! What occurs is either a dis-location of feelings from God to God's power or a total rejection of God despite God's powers. The result would lead to the creation of "Groupies"(people that follow because they love what God can do, versus loving God despite what he can do.) and Deniers!!

In fact, one way for a being of God's magnitude to garner love or respect is to not reveal God's incredible nature until after the person in question is able to handle it without fundamental change to their acceptance of God.



In fact, one method is to not for Gods to reveal God's nature at first, and develop the relationship on a one to one basis. In fact, the need to disclose Gods "supernatural" nature is one of supreme egotism that undermines the desire for a healthy relationship.


Comments welcome

 

[amrchaos]

#2

Miracles are only proof that something I thought was impossible is now possible.

It is not evidence of identification for anyone or thing!!

For instance, It is said that the devil can possess people. Is Demonic possession a miracle? Yes, it is posited that something that is considered impossible (as in outside of metaphysical thought) Is claimed to happen within a theology.

In this case, the dismal of freewill and the physical control by a spiritual entity in a human body. This allows "demons" and their ilk to stage performances in order to mislead humans! Add in the fact that these evil spirits may have other abilities that we do not know of, It becomes impossible for Man to discern who is who due to our own ignorance about "demons" and angels!

 

[amrchaos]

3.

No

Going through a or b should show you the absurdity of the statement---even if you deny the logic, the theology argues against the statement!!

 

[hobelim]

#2

Miracles are only proof that something I thought was impossible is now possible.

It is not evidence of identification for anyone or thing!!

For instance, It is said that the devil can possess people. Is Demonic possession a miracle? Yes, it is posited that something that is considered impossible (as in outside of metaphysical thought) Is claimed to happen within a theology.

In this case, the dismal of freewill and the physical control by a spiritual entity in a human body. This allows "demons" and their ilk to stage performances in order to mislead humans! Add in the fact that these evil spirits may have other abilities that we do not know of, It becomes impossible for Man to discern who is who due to our own ignorance about "demons" and angels!

Miracles in scripture, specifically the NT are not demonstrations of divine power over reality. Giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, raising the dead, the multiplication of the loaves, etc., all can be interpreted in a way that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality.

A person suffering from demonic possession is the ancients way of trying to describe what we would see as a victim of mind control, a person completely dominated and controlled by one or many despicable human beings or various forms of lowlifes. To subjugate and posses another human being through deceptive means was considered a great evil.

It has nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities.

The devil himself is a figurative depiction of a species of human lowlife who tries to pass himself off as an enlightened being but is only out to take over your mind with lies and specious promises of salvation, eternal life, and becoming like God only to collect a following of people like possessions or a herd of mindless sheep held like prisoners in a truth and self negating captivity to be fleeced for life.

 

[amrchaos]

4.

This depends on who or what is used to make that decision!!

For instance, are Muslims a type of christian? That depends n your definition of christian. The same could be asked about Mormons--Are they Christians or are they something like Muslims?

Notice that in Islam, there is clear distinction between what is and is not a follower. While in Mormonism, we could easily apply the Islamic argument to say it is not, yet Mormons will argue that they are Christians.

See the problem here?

 

[amrchaos]

#2

Miracles are only proof that something I thought was impossible is now possible.

It is not evidence of identification for anyone or thing!!

For instance, It is said that the devil can possess people. Is Demonic possession a miracle? Yes, it is posited that something that is considered impossible (as in outside of metaphysical thought) Is claimed to happen within a theology.

In this case, the dismal of freewill and the physical control by a spiritual entity in a human body. This allows "demons" and their ilk to stage performances in order to mislead humans! Add in the fact that these evil spirits may have other abilities that we do not know of, It becomes impossible for Man to discern who is who due to our own ignorance about "demons" and angels!

Miracles in scripture, specifically the NT are not demonstrations of divine power over reality. Giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, raising the dead, the multiplication of the loaves, etc., all can be interpreted in a way that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality.

A person suffering from demonic possession is the ancients way of trying to describe what we would see as a victim of mind control, a person completely dominated and controlled by one or many despicable human beings or various forms of lowlifes. To subjugate and posses another human being through deceptive means was considered a great evil.

It has nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities.

The devil himself is a figurative depiction of a species of human lowlife who tries to pass himself off as an enlightened being but is only out to take over your mind with lies and specious promises of salvation, eternal life, and becoming like God only to collect a following of people like possessions or a herd of mindless sheep held like prisoners in a truth and self negating captivity to be fleeced for life.

Tell that to the Catholic church.

 

[The Irish Ram]

1. Miracles were a sign for a specific time period. They proved to the people watching them being performed, that Christ was not one of your run of the mill self appointed Messiahs that kept showing up.
If you were in a cemetery, and a man came up beside you and told a corpse to rise and it did, He would have your attention.

2. They were necessary to convince humans that Christ was indeed Emanuel. And throughout the Bible, when black magic was used, a greater work trumped it, as with Moses and the Pharaoh, and the miracles Elijah wrought. We now have enough information to rely on faith, not handy work. Heart over hand is preferable.

3. Knowing God, does not determine free will. What you do with that knowledge does. It means you have what you need to make an informed decision.

4. A Christian believes that:
a. God has a Son.
b. That His Son removed the condemnation that accompanies sin.
c. That we are forgiven our trespasses through the work Christ did on the cross.
d. That we are known as His disciples by the love we show.

Muslims believe:
a. That God has no son.
b. That they remove their own sin by killing all infidels.
c. That Christ wasn't capable of removing sin, and was a mere prophet, and yet ignore His prophesies, and His 1 commandment, to love one another.
d. They are known as disciples of Mohammad by the infidels the behead.

Just to name a few distinctions.........

 

[hobelim]

#2

Miracles are only proof that something I thought was impossible is now possible.

It is not evidence of identification for anyone or thing!!

For instance, It is said that the devil can possess people. Is Demonic possession a miracle? Yes, it is posited that something that is considered impossible (as in outside of metaphysical thought) Is claimed to happen within a theology.

In this case, the dismal of freewill and the physical control by a spiritual entity in a human body. This allows "demons" and their ilk to stage performances in order to mislead humans! Add in the fact that these evil spirits may have other abilities that we do not know of, It becomes impossible for Man to discern who is who due to our own ignorance about "demons" and angels!

Miracles in scripture, specifically the NT are not demonstrations of divine power over reality. Giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, raising the dead, the multiplication of the loaves, etc., all can be interpreted in a way that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality.

A person suffering from demonic possession is the ancients way of trying to describe what we would see as a victim of mind control, a person completely dominated and controlled by one or many despicable human beings or various forms of lowlifes. To subjugate and posses another human being through deceptive means was considered a great evil.

It has nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities.

The devil himself is a figurative depiction of a species of human lowlife who tries to pass himself off as an enlightened being but is only out to take over your mind with lies and specious promises of salvation, eternal life, and becoming like God only to collect a following of people like possessions or a herd of mindless sheep held like prisoners in a truth and self negating captivity to be fleeced for life.

Tell that to the Catholic church.

I tried that. Most priests seemed to think that I was in mortal danger of hell for calling into question the teachings of 'mother church' and suggested that I should repent for the despicable sin of having an intelligent thought and then go to confession and worship and eat a cracker and everything would be just peachy..

I wasn't surprised. Its not likely that someone who is involved in and dependent on the proceeds of a scam would acknowledge the scam they are involved in. The furthest I got after locking horns with a Jesuit priest for about 8 years was that he finally admitted a contradiction existed between what Jesus taught about certain things foundational to salvation and what the church teaches, a lie that had to be extirpated..

Fortunately for him it was just in the nick of time.......He died shorty after......

That was a long time ago.

 

[turzovka]

#2

Miracles are only proof that something I thought was impossible is now possible.

It is not evidence of identification for anyone or thing!!

For instance, It is said that the devil can possess people. Is Demonic possession a miracle? Yes, it is posited that something that is considered impossible (as in outside of metaphysical thought) Is claimed to happen within a theology.

In this case, the dismal of freewill and the physical control by a spiritual entity in a human body. This allows "demons" and their ilk to stage performances in order to mislead humans! Add in the fact that these evil spirits may have other abilities that we do not know of, It becomes impossible for Man to discern who is who due to our own ignorance about "demons" and angels!

My take on this:

No matter how intellectual you want to sound about these lofty ideas, the underlying motive I see in all this is man looking for ways to excuse his rebellious acts. Man hedging his bet, where in case he was wrong about Jesus, heaven and hell he can have all his reasons ready to go in explaining to God why he never could have been certain if God was real or if all those miracles might have been from the devil. So what else could he do but play it cautious and do nothing?

Some of your other thoughts in the top post are of real interest and may have some merit (I don't have the time to consider right now) --- but for you or anyone else to make the statement Fatima could be from the devil ---- or even more pathetic, Fatima shows no signs of a supernatural event ---- I call that an obvious ploy. We are not fooled, surely God is not.

There are many miracles that cannot be refuted or possibly attributed to the evil one. Jesus said we judge them by their fruits. Go check out the innumerable cures of the incurables at Lourdes. I can assure you also, those statues of the Virgin Mary shedding tears of blood or holy oil in the Middle East and the Ukraine --- Satan is not behind that, because it surely is not advancing his cause.

 

[hobelim]

My take on this:


There are many miracles that cannot be refuted or possibly attributed to the evil one. Jesus said we judge them by their fruits. Go check out the innumerable cures of the incurables at Lourdes. I can assure you also, those statues of the Virgin Mary shedding tears of blood or holy oil in the Middle East and the Ukraine --- Satan is not behind that, because it surely is not advancing his cause.

Sure, statues cry blood.....

 

[SmedlyButler]

....."A person suffering from demonic possession is the ancients way of trying to describe what we would see as a victim of mind control, a person completely dominated and controlled by one or many despicable human beings or various forms of lowlifes. To subjugate and posses another human being through deceptive means was considered a great evil.

It has nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities...."

So you're not a Bible literalist. I'm wondering if you think the Bible has any worth at all. If the Gospels themselves are fully figurative or metaphorical, parable or allegory how can Christianty claim any foundation in truth? For instance when you say the tales of Demons have "nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities..."
it means Matthews relating of Christs encounter with and casting out of Demons did not happen.

Matthew 8:28-32

28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, "If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine."…32 And He said to them, "Go!" And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.…

Maybe I was jumping to conclusions when I assumed you consider yourself a Christian. I don't think somebody can be a Christian without believing in the Gospels account of Christ's works. How can a person be expected to believe the most unbelievable, most incomprehensible, his resurrection and his oneness with God, if the rest of his story is simply that, a story? Or are you one of the "Christian Modernists" who gets to pick and choose what parts of scripture to believe actually happened and which parts are merely "the ancients way of trying to describe" some aspect of reality they don't understand?

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

I was reading another thread and a couple of claims that the God of Judaic theology exists. Understand, the God of Judaic-based Theology is basically the God of Judaism with some additions(or subtractions!) depending on which member of the set you choose to look at. For instance, Islam and Mormonism are part of this set, as well as any cult and minor religion that makes use of some of Judaic theology. However, Scientology is not part of this set, despite being a Western Religion(A religion started in a western nation).


The reason I make the above distinction is because we need some "clearer" definition of God in these riddles. And without these restrictions, there are logical escape clauses that I wish to avoid.

So here goes:

1) Is it necessary for God to provide miracles or send messangers to prove God's existence?

2)How is a "miracle" proof of anything? For instance, how do we not know there is some "non-divine being" that performed the "miracle" for its own reasons?

3)Does "knowing God" undermine free will? If so then please consider the following:

a) How does one explain Lucifer's rebellion against God? Lucifer knows God, yet Lucifer "disobeys" God. Is this "disobedience" Gods Will? Therefore, is Lucifer an agent of God because Lucifer "know" god exist? Or is it possible that you have to "completely" know God as well as his existence" which is quite different from "Knowing of God's existance"?

b)If the statement is rewritten as: "If you know of God, then you do not have free will"
Then does that mean "If you have free will, then you do not know of god?".
Do you think that is absurd?

4)Is it necessary to "Believe in God" in order to be part of a Judaic-based religion? Or is possible that a person can be considered a member of a religion despite having fundamental difference with its theology?



Now what I think. Next post.

1. God doesn't have to do anything. Think about it like this, I am mowing my lawn, I run over an ant hill, if they all die, they die, if they live, they live. I am indifferent, to those ants I am a god. I can kill them anytime I want, I can help them out anytime I want, I can destroy their home, or wipe them out, but mostly I am just indifferent. God does not HAVE to do anything. (I mean, who is gonna make Him?)

2. Any non-divine being, with the power capable of performing 'miracles' would want to make itself known.

3. A better question is this: Did Judas have freewill? He was destined to betray the Lord, that is why he was born, was there anything he could have done to prevent this?

4. As far as I know the only fundamental things to do to be a Christian, is to believe that Jesus was the Christ, was crucified and rose from the dead. Recognize that you are a sinner and ask the Perfect Lamb(Jesus) for forgiveness. (If you truly believe this, then the Holy Spirit will enter you, and you will know it.)

 

[hobelim]

....."A person suffering from demonic possession is the ancients way of trying to describe what we would see as a victim of mind control, a person completely dominated and controlled by one or many despicable human beings or various forms of lowlifes. To subjugate and posses another human being through deceptive means was considered a great evil.

It has nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities...."

So you're not a Bible literalist. I'm wondering if you think the Bible has any worth at all. If the Gospels themselves are fully figurative or metaphorical, parable or allegory how can Christianty claim any foundation in truth? For instance when you say the tales of Demons have "nothing whatever to do with invisible disembodied entities..."
it means Matthews relating of Christs encounter with and casting out of Demons did not happen.

Matthew 8:28-32

28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, "If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine."…32 And He said to them, "Go!" And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.…

This encounter is not about disembodied demonic entities. Jesus did not have a conversation with invisible ghosts. The story states clearly that the two men were demon possessed. In scripture, angels and demons, devils and prophets, swine, sheep, goats, cattle, wolves, vultures, maggots and jackasses are figurative analogies for human beings who by their attributes resembles creatures, clean or unclean, that represent the heights and depths of human potential. This should shed light on the true subject of Kosher law, and the command of Jesus to eat his flesh, to even the person with the least intelligence..

The men possessed by demons were human beings working for some degenerate, hence demon possessed. They were harassing people on the road probably robbing or shaking people down for money. When they saw Jesus they mocked him by saying 'are you here to torment us before our time." probably because like in any small town they had heard rumors of Jesus claims of being the messiah. After Jesus told them to fuck off they joined a herd of swine, a known reference for unthinking people, who threw themselves off a cliff. This story doesn't have to be any more deep or mysterious than if TV evangelist demon possessed GISM joined a Catholic congregation only to go over a cliff by degenerating further and worshiping a matzoh.

Maybe I was jumping to conclusions when I assumed you consider yourself a Christian. I don't think somebody can be a Christian without believing in the Gospels account of Christ's works. How can a person be expected to believe the most unbelievable, most incomprehensible, his resurrection and his oneness with God, if the rest of his story is simply that, a story? Or are you one of the "Christian Modernists" who gets to pick and choose what parts of scripture to believe actually happened and which parts are merely "the ancients way of trying to describe" some aspect of reality they don't understand?

I didn't say they were describing a reality they did not understand. They were describing the same phenomena we see in victims of mind control tactics common in cults using different terminology. The authors of scripture were by far more intelligent, rational, dedicated, and ethical than anyone currently alive could possibly understand. Many people who lose their minds never get it back. If you ever knew someone who was taken in by a cult and then later liberated and returned to a right mind you would understand that the terminology of demonic possession and the analogy of the dead returning to life is extremely accurate and the transformation....miraculous.





Unclean spirit is an unclean mind. Casting out demons was freeing people from whatever religious fraud, crime boss, or degenerate creature that took over the possessed persons mind and life, and created a golem..These are the dead in hells keeping who will be freed from their dungeons when the messiah comes.


And I am not a Christian, I do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God, I do not believe what Christians claim about God, Jesus, miracles, heaven and hell, the OT, Mosaic law, or salvation but I accept that scripture conveys truth, but only truth that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality which eliminates the possibility that any literal reading is the truth.

Everything that supposedly happened in scripture happened on earth, the same earth that you and I and everyone alive has been intimately acquainted with for their entire lives. This is a major constraint on any possible interpretation of any story in scripture. If snakes can't talk, angels don't carry people through the air by their hair, the dead don't come out of their graves and then float up into the sky then these things never happened. For scripture to qualify as truth there has to be a more rational and intelligent way to understand these stories.

If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.

 

[SmedlyButler]

"......And I am not a Christian, I do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God, I do not believe what Christians claim about God, Jesus, miracles, heaven and hell, the OT, Mosaic law, or salvation but I accept that scripture conveys truth, but only truth that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality which eliminates the possibility that any literal reading is the truth....."


"....If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.

Thanks for all the time you put into your replies. It would have saved us both time if I hadn't assumed you were a Christian. Being an atheist I'm always interested in how the mind of Christians work. I'm not interested and don't have the time to parse out the Old and New Testaments seeking nuggets of secular truth, I don't even have time to get to all the modern philosophical and scientific literature that's in front of me.

 

[hobelim]

"......And I am not a Christian, I do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God, I do not believe what Christians claim about God, Jesus, miracles, heaven and hell, the OT, Mosaic law, or salvation but I accept that scripture conveys truth, but only truth that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality which eliminates the possibility that any literal reading is the truth....."


"....If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.

Thanks for all the time you put into your replies. It would have saved us both time if I hadn't assumed you were a Christian. Being an atheist I'm always interested in how the mind of Christians work. I'm not interested and don't have the time to parse out the Old and New Testaments seeking nuggets of secular truth, I don't even have time to get to all the modern philosophical and scientific literature that's in front of me.

"......And I am not a Christian, I do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God, I do not believe what Christians claim about God, Jesus, miracles, heaven and hell, the OT, Mosaic law, or salvation but I accept that scripture conveys truth, but only truth that conforms to and can be confirmed by reality which eliminates the possibility that any literal reading is the truth....."


"....If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.

Thanks for all the time you put into your replies. It would have saved us both time if I hadn't assumed you were a Christian. Being an atheist I'm always interested in how the mind of Christians work. I'm not interested and don't have the time to parse out the Old and New Testaments seeking nuggets of secular truth, I don't even have time to get to all the modern philosophical and scientific literature that's in front of me.

I do understand that you are not interested and don't have the time to parse out the Old and New testaments seeking deeper truth that may or may not be there but how do you expect to understand how the mind of a Christian works if you don't have the time to explore the possible causes for their mental malfunction which are directly related to their bizarre beliefs based on irrational misinterpretations of what is written in scripture?

You could save a lot of time and actually get somewhere understanding how the mind of a christian works, or doesn't work, if you took the same amount of time you wasted asking me a question to decide whether what I said.about demonic possession as it relates to mind control has any merit.,

 

[turzovka]

My take on this:


There are many miracles that cannot be refuted or possibly attributed to the evil one. Jesus said we judge them by their fruits. Go check out the innumerable cures of the incurables at Lourdes. I can assure you also, those statues of the Virgin Mary shedding tears of blood or holy oil in the Middle East and the Ukraine --- Satan is not behind that, because it surely is not advancing his cause.

Sure, statues cry blood.....

Yes, cool song. (and a funny rejoinder) I remember it well and so we seem to connect on the underground music scene of decades past.

But I ask --- where do you get all your confidence? It truly astounds me. God gives us so many signs and wonders, and what does the skeptic do? Why he runs into his lab and struggles and strains to find a counter explanation for the phenomenon before his eyes. Or, he sweeps every eye witness aside at any event as totally unreliable.

At least... that is how I see it in so many cases. Not all, but surely with most who pride themselves in intellectual skills.

 

[Moonglow]

My take on this:


There are many miracles that cannot be refuted or possibly attributed to the evil one. Jesus said we judge them by their fruits. Go check out the innumerable cures of the incurables at Lourdes. I can assure you also, those statues of the Virgin Mary shedding tears of blood or holy oil in the Middle East and the Ukraine --- Satan is not behind that, because it surely is not advancing his cause.

Sure, statues cry blood.....

Yes, cool song. (and a funny rejoinder) I remember it well and so we seem to connect on the underground music scene of decades past.

But I ask --- where do you get all your confidence? It truly astounds me. God gives us so many signs and wonders, and what does the skeptic do? Why he runs into his lab and struggles and strains to find a counter explanation for the phenomenon before his eyes. Or, he sweeps every eye witness aside at any even as totally unreliable.

At least... that is how I see it in so many cases. Not all, but surely with most who pride themselves in intellectual skills.

Frank Zappa was not underground, he was counter culture...

 

[hobelim]

Yes, cool song. (and a funny rejoinder) I remember it well and so we seem to connect on the underground music scene of decades past.

But I ask --- where do you get all your confidence? It truly astounds me. God gives us so many signs and wonders, and what does the skeptic do? Why he runs into his lab and struggles and strains to find a counter explanation for the phenomenon before his eyes. Or, he sweeps every eye witness aside at any event as totally unreliable.

At least... that is how I see it in so many cases. Not all, but surely with most who pride themselves in intellectual skills.

You say, "God gives us so many signs and wonders". I ask, what sign or wonder has God ever given you in your entire life? You read about other people who claimed to see the sun dance around in the sky or claimed healing because they splashed around in water where children supposedly spoke with the virgin Mary and you think that is somehow validation for your worship of a trinity that became a man that you eat in the form of a lifeless matzoh for spiritual life??

Did you ever stop for a minute to think about these signs you claim are from God? The sun moved around in the sky? Really? Statues cry blood? really?

When Jesus appeared to his disciples was it on a grilled cheese sandwich?

Where do I get my confidence? Give me a break....

When did you lose your mind?

 

[Sunni Man]

Muslims believe:

b. That they remove their own sin by killing all infidels.

d. They are known as disciples of Mohammad by the infidels they behead.

More lies and idiotic nonsense by the Irish Ram........