A fetus is not alive? Waaah?

[Steerpike]

steerpike is officially an idiot. Your cat isn't a fetus, fool.

No kidding. Your posts contributes nothing to the thread except to make you look illiterate. Try reading the thread once more, slowly this time. Maybe you'll come up with a pertinent response.

 

[Steerpike]

How's this: a fetus is alive because if it was dead, that's called stillborn, and the doctor would remove it. Geez, not a very bright topic. Like chimps arguing over whose turn it is to throw their shit at the zoo visitors.

Yet again an ignorant post, and one that demonstrates a failure to read the thread. I'll give you the condensed third-grade summary of the argument. Don't worry - you won't have to rely hardly at all on your own intellect.

A fetus is alive, just like any cell or group of cells is alive. But killing any cell or groups of cells isn't murder. Killing a human is murder. So the question becomes 'when is a fetus human.' The answer could range anywhere from conception on.

A prior post put forth the view that when the fetus could feel pain it became human. I pointed out that the ability to feel pain isn't a good line of demarcation because it isn't uniquely human (i.e. non-humans feel pain, and yes at some point even my cat was a fetus who could feel pain).

So the question of when a fetus is considered 'human' for purposes of being 'murdered' remains on the table.

Your complete inability to read the thread has now hopefully been remedied.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Actually, it is.........because think of it this way......a tumor doesn't have a nervous system of it's own, yet it is still "alive", as evidenced by the way it takes over the body.

We don't prosecute doctors for removing tumors.

However, we DO prosecute them for abortions. Until it has a nervous system, it is just a mass of cells.

 

[JBeukema]

But, when it does get a nervous system, it can now feel pain, and that is the point where it becomes "human".

That doesn't make sense as a defining line. My cat can feel pain, and yet it is not human.

'Human' is defined as having Human DNA

Actually, it is.........because think of it this way......a tumor doesn't have a nervous system of it's own, yet it is still "alive", as evidenced by the way it takes over the body.

We don't prosecute doctors for removing tumors.

However, we DO prosecute them for abortions. Until it has a nervous system, it is just a mass of cells.

nervous system=cells
tumor has your DNA- it's your body, do as you please
baby has its own genome distinct from the mother- not her body

all the pro-infanticide lies are falling apart

 

[Shogun]

riiight right... because when ethicists use any given ethical paradigm it's not THEIR PERSONAL RATIONAL AGENT SELVES THAT ARE MAKING THE ETHICAL DECISIONS AT ALL! No no.. it's the subject, ITSELF! Here, let me get comfy so I can really drive this point home, motherfucker..

A fetus is not THE rational agent making the ethical choices, fuck nugget. Period. Point. Blank. No more with Kantian paradigms than with utilitarian paradigms. How much utility does a fucking BABY MONKEY or FETUS assign to THEMSELVES, you dumb fuck? They don't. Because YOU are the one using utilitarianism just like I am the one using Kantianism. What IS fucking funnier than shit though is that you'd even dive into this shallow tangent for the sake of a bullshit strawman defense anyway. For real, dude. Did you think Utilitarianism is the ONLY ethical philosophy? Did you think that accusing someone of copying and pasting deflects how fucking HILARIOUS it is to see your otherwise loquacious self, instead of clarifying an error, pretty much pull a peewee herman style "nuh HUH!"? You've been fucking punked, dude. YOU know it. I know it. and, now that I know who you are, pedobear, it makes a whole lot of sense why you keep eating a giant spoonful of Fail.




ps... it's fucking hilarious that you needed to disguise yourself behind another account, dude.. Lemme guess.. this is the kind of thing you HAVE to do after making your customary "adults should fuck children" speech at a new forum, eh?

Perhaps you think that this incoherent tantrum would hide the fact that you still have yet to make an argument? It hasn't. Since you've done nothing but expose your own ignorance in this thread (I'm still laughing at your patently imbecilic example regarding the "slapping" of the Holocaust victim, which exposed your ignorance as being leagues deeper than I'd imagined), you've therefore not had the means to make an argument.

Moreover, it's still obvious that you don't actually know anything about Kantianism, since you've not been able to understand Kant's reference to rational agents. Rather, you simply perused Wikipedia for a bit, and gathered some dim comprehension that "LOL LOL LOL KANTIANISM AGAINST CONSEQUENTIALISM LOL LOL LOL." Yet, you've not actually had the ability to apply that very thin kernel of knowledge. Congratulations!

Is this why you STILL HAVEN'T clarified how YOU think a rational agent is applied? (outside of assuming that a fucking fetus assigns it's OWN rational value, that is HAHAHAHAHA!)


Trust me, dude... screaming "nuh huh you are wrong!" doesn't impress me under this guise you are using now any more than it did back when you were touting utilitarian child molestation. I've quote MY sources on kantianism, pussyclot. If your meltdown is indicative of what happens when your bullshit ethical paradigm has been trumped then I guess it makes sense why you'd need another alias around here.

 

[JBeukema]

what is this 'kanitanism'?

 

[Steerpike]

'Human' is defined as having Human DNA

Every cell in my body has human DNA. We don't consider the killing of those cells murder, do we? There's got to be some other distinguishing factor besides human DNA and nerves.

 

[JBeukema]

Every cell in my body has human DNA. We don't consider the killing of those cells murder, do we? There's got to be some other distinguishing factor besides human DNA and nerves.

Those cells ARE human, each is not A human

baby= (human+alive)=HUMAN LIFE + distinct organism= Distinct Human Life

Distinct Human Life=human rights

 

[Steerpike]

Those cells ARE human, each is not A human

baby= (human+alive)=HUMAN LIFE + distinct organism= Distinct Human Life

Distinct Human Life=human rights

Yeah, I know that's the argument.

The problem is, not everyone agrees with it. Kind of like with the religious issue, you've got people arguing from two very different underlying fundamental assumptions, and as of right now there isn't any conclusive evidence you can use to convince either party.

 

[JBeukema]

The 'other party' ignores reason so they can justify doing anything they please without regard to human life

 

[Steerpike]

The 'other party' ignores reason so they can justify doing anything they please without regard to human life

I disagree. I am pro-choice myself. I have a decade worth of experience in medical research, as well as far too much education in human biology and biochemistry. Saying someone you don't agree with 'ignores reason' is an easy way around the issue, but it isn't a compelling one. I understand human development pretty well, and I don't know how one would go about determining at what point a fetus becomes a 'person' (using that term in a legal sense; i.e. that killing would be murder) but I do not believe it is at conception.

 

[Shogun]

'Human' is defined as having Human DNA

Every cell in my body has human DNA. We don't consider the killing of those cells murder, do we? There's got to be some other distinguishing factor besides human DNA and nerves.

not every cell in your body is a fertilized diploid individual. I disagree with your cat analogy, too. A cat is not a genetic human. It may feel pain but it can never be a functioning human being. My dog loves steak but I don't feed him prime rib while I eat gristle and fat. Human DNA is the prime factor in determining specie and, id say, rather than pain being the deadline (pun intended) it should be a heartbeat and functioning nervous system which indicates a functioning brain stem and neural interaction.

 

[JBeukema]

nervous system and brain development measures cognitive function, the ability to feel pain, and - indirectly- sentience. None of these are equal to life but are traits that life can have

a plant has no nervous system, but it is life

 

[ABikerSailor]

Every cell in my body has human DNA. We don't consider the killing of those cells murder, do we? There's got to be some other distinguishing factor besides human DNA and nerves.

Those cells ARE human, each is not A human

baby= (human+alive)=HUMAN LIFE + distinct organism= Distinct Human Life

Distinct Human Life=human rights

You know.....that's almost like saying 3 wheels, 1/2 a chassis and an engine with a steering wheel and 1 window with a windshield and 2 seats is a car.

A mass of parts is not a car, and a mass of cells is not a human (although, it has human DNA).

 

[JBeukema]

all a human is IS a mass of cells

 

[ABikerSailor]

Okay.............what if they removed your legs, 1 kidney, 3/4 of your ribs, 1/2 your brain, 1 eye, 2 ears and a lung.

Would you still consider yourself "human" or just a mass of parts? If you're still conscious by this time, and able to think as a human, maybe.

Otherwise? Nope.

 

[JBeukema]

Okay.............what if they removed your legs, 1 kidney, 3/4 of your ribs, 1/2 your brain, 1 eye, 2 ears and a lung.

Would you still consider yourself "human" or just a mass of parts? If you're still conscious by this time, and able to think as a human, maybe.

Otherwise? Nope.

you're still a human being. You're just REALLY REALLY fucked up

also, you just argued that you're not human while asleep or in a coma- or even knocked out

brilliant reasoning

 

[Shogun]

nervous system and brain development measures cognitive function, the ability to feel pain, and - indirectly- sentience. None of these are equal to life but are traits that life can have

a plant has no nervous system, but it is life

a plant is not a human and we kill plants all the time. This is why my take is to move away from debating whose definition qualifies as "life" and focus, instead, on the genetic individual that is produced and the initial indications of brainstem functions.

 

[Shogun]

all a human is IS a mass of cells

all anything is IS a mass of atoms. so what?

 

[JBeukema]

baby killer claims:
(not alive): DEBUNKED
(not human) DEBUNKED
(woman's body): DEBUNKED