61% of Liberals Favor Socialism

[Foxfyre]

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

If rightwing propaganda is effective given how much more prevalent and overwhelming is leftwing propaganda in the media, in politics, and in the education system, there must be something very compelling in that rightwing propaganda, wouldn't you think? I mean rightwing propaganda doesn't promise cradle to grave security, benevolence, favoritism, etc. etc. etc. Rightwing propaganda only promises personal freedom, accountability, security of our God given rights, and opportunity for all to reach for their goals.

Hmmm. Freebies vs freedom and unlimited opportunity. Tough choice huh? And yet most Americans are just wierd enough to choose the latter and take their chances.

Why do you think that is?

No one ever said the propagandists weren't good at their jobs. They know how to distort and misrepresent the issues to favor the special interests who can pay for their services.

They've managed to convince guys who'll never make much more than minimum wage that taxing the rich at fair rates is a bad idea.

They managed to convice guys who'll die long before their times that universal health care is a bad idea.

They manage to convince guys who'll drift from one dead-end job to another that protecting American jobs is a bad idea.

They call it free-market capitalism, wrap it in the flag and shove it down the dupes' throats and they love it.

Go figure.

Why do you think the rightwing propagandists, who are in a significantly distinct minority among propagandists, are so much more effective in getting people to respond to their message than is your side?

Could it be that you're interpreting the conservative message entirely wrong?

 

[Joe Steel]

If I may conjecture that American ideas and ideals are more closely associated with self-reliance, free enterprise, and entrepeneurship, what is one to make of the latest Gallup poll?.

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

...

2. It seems that you reading of the media is highly flawed. Are you claiming that the print media, the broadcast media and every form outside of talk radio is not left wing?

Absurd.

Absurd only to the dupes.

The AmeriCorporate media seek profit not truth. Everything they do has to be presumed to further that end. There's more profit in pandering than informing.

 

[gautama]

I'd bet my bottom nickel that 50-61% of the "Socialist" Liberals are actually MARXISTS......just like their "MESSIAH"......... MARXIST Muslim PC Protector Obami Salami.

 

[Vast LWC]

You write as though you live in an echo chamber, happily accepting the slaps on the back from like minded folks.

Make the leap to a more adult venue: specifiy examples, use data, documentation, etc.

Don't be afraid of a more spirited debate.


For example, would you include the PIGS, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain as "examples of healthy Socialist Democracies"?


And try to avoid such blather as "...pro-corporate oligarchy propaganda though, which frustrates them to no end." unless you can provide examples, as it is a waste of good electrons.

Your post could be more interesting for both sides- and for you as well.

Well, that would involve a definition of how "Socialist" you have to be to be a "Socialist Democracy".

As was my point, folks on the right try to paint socialism with a broad brush, like there's some black and white line that separates socialist states from capitalist states. This is simply not true.

In fact, most modern industrialized countries are more socialist than we are.

Since most right-wingers tend to call any left-leaning policies to be "Socialist" than one must assume that any nation that is more socialist than the US qualifies as being "Socialist".

So, based on that definition, I'd say that, for starters, a good portion of Europe is made up of "socialist democracies".

 

[Bern80]

You were doing fine until your final paragraph when an accurate historical analysis devolved into your opinions, which are not supported by facts. What is the alternative to (for example) social security and medicare? What is the soluton to the enormous cost of health care in America (even scrooge was eventually enlightened, but not until he came to realize he too might suffer)?

The fact that you can't think anymore outside of the box to solve heath care than simply shrug and say let government fix it is an example of EXACLTEY what happens when there is too much government in a society. It literally makes people dumber and more complacement. Why do more if you don't have to right?

I always think of the movie Wall-E when I think about where are society is headed. The spaceships where the people can do absolutely nothing for themselves and have become so lethargic and dependant they get wheeled around everywhere.

Wanna solve health care? Simple. Get government the fuck out of it. Haven't you ever asked yourself why there aren't insurance companies that can provide the products you want? Why can't an insurance company sell me a policy that only covers catastophic events and I agree to pay for everything else. Why can't I say I only want to my medications covered? Or maybe a company that has a high premiun but covers all costs, no questions asked. Because there or so many government regulations when it comes to insurance that you would have to be nuts to try to start your own insurance company and even if you did te government already tells you what kinds of policies you can offer.

Start to encourage pre-tax health savings accounts.

allow insurance companies to sell across state lines.

Have some TORT reform so that doctor's can charge less now that they don't have to pay ridiculous sums of money in medical mal practice, which forces them to run every test under the sun, just so you don't get sue happy.

 

[Vast LWC]

Oh, and anything that is not "Socialism" in a country where corporations have as much influence as they do here, is basically support for "Corporate Oligarchy", by default.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You write as though you live in an echo chamber, happily accepting the slaps on the back from like minded folks.

Make the leap to a more adult venue: specifiy examples, use data, documentation, etc.

Don't be afraid of a more spirited debate.


For example, would you include the PIGS, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain as "examples of healthy Socialist Democracies"?


And try to avoid such blather as "...pro-corporate oligarchy propaganda though, which frustrates them to no end." unless you can provide examples, as it is a waste of good electrons.

Your post could be more interesting for both sides- and for you as well.

Well, that would involve a definition of how "Socialist" you have to be to be a "Socialist Democracy".

As was my point, folks on the right try to paint socialism with a broad brush, like there's some black and white line that separates socialist states from capitalist states. This is simply not true.

In fact, most modern industrialized countries are more socialist than we are.

Since most right-wingers tend to call any left-leaning policies to be "Socialist" than one must assume that any nation that is more socialist than the US qualifies as being "Socialist".

So, based on that definition, I'd say that, for starters, a good portion of Europe is made up of "socialist democracies".

There is no disputing that fact.

The next considerations should be
1.are we doing better than they are?
2. if so, to what do you attrilbute same?
3. and, if so, will they continue along those lines?
The financial channels, this morning, were discussing whether the Greek meltdown might presage the end of the EU.


Or, to what degree is it beneficial to be socialist?

 

[mascale]

Adam Smith actually knew a thing or two about the corruption of economics for the rich!

"It is the industry which is carried on for the benefit of the rich and the powerful that is principally encouraged by our mercantile system. That which is carried on for the benefit of the poor and the indigent is too often either neglected or oppressed."

FDR seems to have known about it, too. Karl Marx seems to have known about it, too. Mother Theresa seems to have known about it, too.

Mostly, The Republican National Committee seems to find the history of the Indian Sub-Continent their own role model for America! Even United Nations, in response to the drought in East Africa, sent in aid workers. Idaho religious groups, in fact: Have recently, famously, sent in Orphan Hunters!

Millions still know what Adam Smith knew.

"Crow, James Crow: Shaken, Not Stirred!"
(Hmmm! Find many old squaws! Bring to Reservations! (Make a Friggin' Fortune!))

 

[Vast LWC]

There is no disputing that fact.

The next considerations should be
1.are we doing better than they are?
2. if so, to what do you attrilbute same?
3. and, if so, will they continue along those lines?
The financial channels, this morning, were discussing whether the Greek meltdown might presage the end of the EU.

Or, to what degree is it beneficial to be socialist?

That is an entirely different ball of wax.

That depends entirely on what you believe to be "beneficial".

If you believe that individual profit is the only measure of a "beneficial" system, then it is probably not best to be socialist.

But if you believe that general well-being of a nation's populace is the measure of a "beneficial" system, then I believe an argument could be made for socialism.

 

[KissMy]

"Know wonder"
and you claim we are uneducated.

Yukon is too stupid to know he can't reason, write or spell.

"I see (dumb-o-crats) stupid people, there everywhere, the problem is they don't even know they are stupid"

 

[driveby]

100 % of wealthy seniors love socialism.

They do ? ......

 

[PoliticalChic]

Oh, and anything that is not "Socialism" in a country where corporations have as much influence as they do here, is basically support for "Corporate Oligarchy", by default.

There is the lacunae in your understanding of the intersections of American society and economy.

The largest employer is the small business.

The impetus is opportunity.

Unlike Eurothinking, the American, many Americans, take a job for the opportuity to become a millionaire, or successful in some way, rather than the Euroideology of a job as the entree into a cradle to grave nanny state.

It is the protection of jobs, of unions, and entitlements that has led Greece to the to its predicament.

"When a nation's debt rises to more than 90% of its annual economic output, as has happened in Greece, economic-growth rates are reduced on average by about one percentage point a year, according to research by Ms. Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff of Harvard University. "
Sovereign Debt Payments Weigh on Euro Zone - WSJ.com


This should be a warning to America, and a stake through the heart of the Democrat's policies.

 

[Bern80]

And these statements show that people lik YOU will do every thing they can to absolve people of presonal accountability. That is the only way someone can make such bullshit statements is under the assumption that most or all of the people that you talk about below have nothing to do with the situation they are in, which is comlplete and utter bullshit and is the very reason we have the problems you complain about.

They've managed to convince guys who'll never make much more than minimum wage that taxing the rich at fair rates is a bad idea.

Why will they never make more than minimum wage?. What is this massive handicap that makes it simply impossible for so many to do better? You can not tell me that the potential of all these people maxes at no more than the rudimetnary skills required to performe the avg. min wage job.

They managed to convice guys who'll die long before their times that universal health care is a bad idea.

Again assumes that you aren't in control of your health. I love idiots like you that try to site life expectancy as indicator of the quaity of our health care system. Laughable really. Heart disease is the number one killer in this country. You don't think the fact that over half of us are considered obese, something that is in the individuals direct control, might have something to do with that. You can add that to the list in my other post of ways to 'fix' the health care system. TAKE FUCKING CARE OF YOURSELF.

They manage to convince guys who'll drift from one dead-end job to another that protecting American jobs is a bad idea.

In the long run it is. The reality is we can not compete on the same level of other countries. They have lower standard of living and lower costs of living thus it costs them less to employ people. Enacting things like tariffs and such in an attempt to protect jobs so we can keep doing things the way we always have rather than adapt to the global economy and actually becoming better, isn't doing us any favors. The unions are largely to blame. Payins some dude at GM $30 fucking dollars an hour to stick part a on part b is a joke.

They call it free-market capitalism, wrap it in the flag and shove it down the dupes' throats and they love it.

Just as with pure socialism it has never existed so no one can really claim that it doesn't work.

 

[beowolfe]

I doubt 10% of Americans could define socialism as something other than "just like communism! Commie Bastards!"

I was hoping that someone would make that point, so that I was able to include

an indictment of the US school system, erroneously referred to as an education system.

Since the Gallup Poll so clearly indicates the large positive approval of free market, etc., and yet a sizeable portion of the citizenry, at least those polled, have a positive view of socialism, someone must have dropped the ball somewhere.

I think an argument could be made, though, that many of those folks who signed on to socialism, merely view the term as Democode for the Democratic Party-

but I am not saying that most are not Wilson-Dewey-Obama-Progressive-Liberals.

They probably are: note one of the above posts, a poster who syncretically attempts to claim to be a happy socialist, yet, it seems, has not moved to the EU yet.

Maybe that 61% is smarter than you think they are. We have not had a purely capitalistic system in a very long time. It makes me wonder about all the republicans and conservatives who found it negative. I wonder if they know we've had 'socialist elements' in our system for most of the existence off the Constitution. There are even some none pure capitalist elements in the constitution.

 

[Wry Catcher]

"Know wonder"
and you claim we are uneducated.

Yukon is to stupid to know he can't reason write or spell.

"I see (democrats) stupid people, there everywhere, the problem is they don't even know they are stupid"

"to stupid" should be too stupid; a comma should separate reason and write; the syntax of the final sentence is one which might be acceptable if English is not your native language, and "democrats" (if you meant a member of the Democratic Party) should be capitalized.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There is no disputing that fact.

The next considerations should be
1.are we doing better than they are?
2. if so, to what do you attrilbute same?
3. and, if so, will they continue along those lines?
The financial channels, this morning, were discussing whether the Greek meltdown might presage the end of the EU.

Or, to what degree is it beneficial to be socialist?

That is an entirely different ball of wax.

That depends entirely on what you believe to be "beneficial".

If you believe that individual profit is the only measure of a "beneficial" system, then it is probably not best to be socialist.

But if you believe that general well-being of a nation's populace is the measure of a "beneficial" system, then I believe an argument could be made for socialism.

"...that general well-being of a nation's populace is the measure of a "beneficial" system,..."

Absolutely!

That is why I champion capitalism, and eschew socialism.

"In its modern beginnings, socialism was optimistic and well intentioned, without the overlay of its contemporary varieties that tend to bemoan prosperity, romanticize poverty, and promote a view that place individual rights are a secondary concern. This is to say that the earliest socialists sought the fullest possible flourishing of humanity, “the common good.”

Marxism rested on the assumption that the condition of the working classes would grow ever worse under capitalism, that there would be but two classes: one small and rich, the other vast and increasingly impoverished, and revolution would be the anodyne that would result in the “common good.” But by the early 20th century, it was clear that this assumption was completely wrong! Under capitalism, the standard of living of all was improving: prices falling, incomes rising, health and sanitation improving, lengthening of life spans, diets becoming more varied, the new jobs created in industry paid more than most could make in agriculture, housing improved, and middle class industrialists and business owners displaced nobility and gentry as heroes.

These economic advances continued throughout the period of the rise of socialist ideology. The poor didn’t get poorer because the rich were getting richer (a familiar socialist refrain even today) as the socialists had predicted. Instead, the underlying reality was that capitalism had created the first societies in history in which living standards were rising in all sectors of society."

From a speech by Rev. Robert A. Sirico, President, Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty.
Delivered at Hillsdale College, October 27, 2006
https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2007&month=05

 

[Yukon]

The USA is a socialist country.

 

[Joe Steel]

No one ever said the propagandists weren't good at their jobs. They know how to distort and misrepresent the issues to favor the special interests who can pay for their services.

They've managed to convince guys who'll never make much more than minimum wage that taxing the rich at fair rates is a bad idea.

They managed to convice guys who'll die long before their times that universal health care is a bad idea.

They manage to convince guys who'll drift from one dead-end job to another that protecting American jobs is a bad idea.

They call it free-market capitalism, wrap it in the flag and shove it down the dupes' throats and they love it.

Go figure.

Why do you think the rightwing propagandists, who are in a significantly distinct minority among propagandists, are so much more effective in getting people to respond to their message than is your side?

Could it be that you're interpreting the conservative message entirely wrong?

All the major media firms are rightwing. If you need a reason for the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda, focus on that. Virtually everything you hear or see in the broadcast and cable media is skewed to the right.

 

[froggy]

If we have Capitalism, what do we do with the ones who cannot survive? With Socialism, those who have resent keeping up those who have not. And why would you need Communism, if you can only take out what you put in, you can do that own your own without the label. What ever happened to what made this country great, working together for a better tomorrow?

 

[Wicked Jester]

You people don't have any idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever. You are the atypical uneducated American. No wonder your FF's established the Electoral College. You are really too stupid to decide on your own who should be in charge.

So, how does it feel knowing that a bunch of "uneducated americans" controls everything your backwards country does, and can kick the shit out of you toothless pussies anytime we damn well please?