35 Years, the Legend Lives On

[Quantum Windbag]

The only time I ever got sea sick was after a 30 hour shift preparing to get underway followed by 4 hours of sleep and then a 4 hour wheel watch.

We were in the trough and no matter how many saltines I ate I just couldn't feel right in the gut. Everytime we crested a swell the whole ship shuddered. it was completely destabalizing.

I didn't throw up, but I wished I could have.

I can take anything if I can see the horizon, or even just the waves. It is inside, looking at nothing but bulkheads, that I cannot handle. I spent a GQ drill with a trashcan between my legs. It was amazing walking from the berthing area to my workspace, going from seasickness to no problems instantly, then back to seasickness almost as fast. I still do not understand how people are seasick on deck, not to mention my friend who gets seasick on a bridge.

 

[Big Fitz]

salt water is only 3% more dense than freshwater, and your point would still be false even if it were 30% denser.

Density of Ocean Water

But more on point reports of the storm that sank the EF seem to support swells of 35 max, just a mild storm for the North Pacific. The EF was built for flat water. Even the 1913 storm was weenie compared to what happens routinely in the ocean.

The EF may have broken up merely because she was riding in the trough with the direction of the wind, something that every open ocean captain on Earth would know to avoid in very heavy weather. In fact in the open ocean ships (built for the ocean) are safest in deep water, and will ordinarily change course and reduce speeds to only a few knots during extreme weather. Unless of course they are large enough craft to be unaffected by the weather. The EF appears to have done neither. Those lake captains just don't know how to deal with what is ordinary across 2/3 of the earth's surface.

I have done wheel watches in 300 foot ships in 40 foot seas and we rode in the trough and didn't bother to slow down. 40 foot seas are just not that threatening to a ship of that size made for that kind of stress. The EF was about 5-7 times as massive a craft. But was built for flat water.

Tell that to the sailors and companies who sail them. I'm just passing on stuff I've read in books on Great Lakes Storms, shipping and disasters. No they're not online as they're old.

The three theories regarding the sinking of the Fitz was that She had taken damage possibly by scraping the nearby shoals which caused enough weakening in the hull that the storm action broke her apart. The power cut from the engine to the forecastle bridge in the Hackett style freighter would instantly render her radio inoperative, just like the Daniel J. Morell which went down in similar circumstances in 1967 IIRC.

The Arthur M. Anderson which was in radar and radio contact with the Fitz, experienced a phenomenon known to the lakes called "The Three Sisters". These are a series of three massive waves, often rogue that can usually by themselves smash a ship. It is possible that two of the 'sisters' were close enough together that they literally lifted the Fitz out of the water at both ends and the weight of the load snapped the ship in twain instantly.

The last theory is that because the Fitz was such a long ship, and the seas were pushing such heights that with a critical loss of buoyancy due to previous damage at the shoals, and the loss of two hatch covers, combined with the three sisters, she was pushed down on her bow, and her own engine on the wave front drove her into the bottom of the lake snapping her and instantly sending her under.

If you are familiar with the great lakes, you're right, generally they are far less touched by wave action, having no tides and a much smaller bowl of soup to sail in. But what you are not taking into account is that they are much shallower, with lighter water (3% seems to be just enough, regardless to what your numbers come back with) can be driven into a bigger fuss faster through wind. So the squalls are often far more violent and punishing to crafts. It is a known quotient that when salties get caught in storms on the great lakes, there are always more than a couple experienced sailors who get sea sick where they never do even during the strongest hurricane. This is due to the fact that the wave action does not roll or foam, cushioning the blow on the ship like the ocean does. That foaming action causes the wave to roll, and the trapped air acts like an airbag to a certain extent, extending and slowing down the transfer of energy. So instead of getting slapped with a high impulse, it is slower and gentler to the ship.

Also, as has been the tradition of Lake built ships, they are just as strong and ready for ocean storms as any vessel built for trans oceanic work. Many oceangoing ships are built in the Great Lakes, and many great lake vessels are sold off to trans ocean work after doing a few years on the lakes. The Mesabi Miner for instance was built in Scotland, or at least it's fore and aft sections, the middle was built in a Canadian yard at Collingwood. So don't be poo-pooing our 1000 footers.

And as for our captains here, they operate with tighter clearances and more unstable conditions with more traffic than most areas of the globe. Remember, the Soo canal is the busiest ditch in the world, doing up to double the traffic of the Suez and Panama Canals. Duluth and Detroit are two of the busiest ports in the world behind Long Beach, NYC and Seattle, that's all.

So, please, this is meant to be a fun thread, not a pissing contest. Start your own pissing contest if you wanna brag about your sea going splendor. I shan't be joining you there.

Like I said, neither the ship or the seamen were built for rough weather. And salt water is every bit as rough on a vessel as fresh. For one thing it is 50 times as corrosive to steel ships. And the waves are considerably larger and more powerful. Fresh water still foams if the waves actually break, you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

But enjoy pissing into the wind. You still lose. Even when you compete against yourself.

It is possible that two of the 'sisters' were close enough together that they literally lifted the Fitz out of the water at both ends and the weight of the load snapped the ship in twain instantly.

You do realize that a ship actually made for big seas wouldn't break under these circumstances? This effect occurs with each and every swell, and I mentioned this earlier in reference to orientation to the swell. Riding in the trough maximizes the stress on the midsection of the ship at both extremes of the cycle. The two ends of the vessel are lifted , then when the cycle reverses the midpoint of the vessel is lifted. Ocean going ships are made for this. Or they would ALL sink.

Whattever Loose. You want to have a fight, find someone else. I'm done with your entrenched idiotic egomania.

 

[Big Fitz]

If you're ever in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, go to the Maritime Museum there. They have some neat stuff there about the Edmund Fitzgerald. Lots of other cool maritime stuff too - mostly concerning local ship building. Nice place.

A friend of mine was the curator for the Great Lakes Maritime Museum in Sheboygan. I learned a lot from her. Haven't been to the one in Sturgeon Bay but seen their 'lighthouse signs' enough times. It's always fun to go over the ship canal bridge and look down and see what they're building or have in dry dock that day. The Edward L. Ryerson spends a lot of time there when on layover or low shipping demand.

And for the record, I do like Deadliest Catch if I happen to be somewhere with cable. I've seen the seas they work in and don't for a second minimize the danger they pose. The first episode I saw was the one where a ship sank in season one. It's a crazy way to make a living, but for some, that's the way it is.

 

[loosecannon]

Whattever Loose. You want to have a fight, find someone else. I'm done with your entrenched idiotic egomania.

Bullshit, you just can't defend erecting your lake event as actually being special. You did that, I didn't.

I just pointed out that the EF sank in ordinary ocean seas. Because it was built for flat water. Not because the seas were beyond our capabilities, anything but.

Your legend is a hoot!

 

[Big Fitz]

Yeahhhh, whattever. Obviously you've read nothing from experts on that storm, or those who were in it. I have. Go read a book for once Loosebrains. I'm done talking with you. You're not even entertaining.

 

[Oddball]

 

[Big Fitz]

Nice. The original bell. I want to get up there some November to see that museum during their Gales of November series.

A memorial bell is on the wreck now.