250 Iraqi Detainees Claim Torture By US Forces

[Gunny]

I'd say it's a safe bet that if we prosecuted the Japanese for doing it, it's torture. If we wouldn't want it being done to our troops, it's torture.

And you know that isn't either fair or true. We supposedly have/had certain values as a country. It's painful to see that getting destroyed.

I heard someone say it beautifully the other day and I wish I could remember who it was, but the reality is there are reasons that people wanted to come here to be part of what was great about us for the past two hundred plus years. I hate to think we aren't those things anymore.

There's quite a difference between waterboarding and how the Japanese treated POW's during WWII.

Our values aren't getting destroyed, but I disagree with the "values as a country." There have ALWAYS been two different sets of values all the way back to the Federalists and the Whigs.

The fact is, "torture" by definition can be defined as the most benign of things, and THAT is what this is all about. Using literalism to point a finger.

It's a known fact pain is a great motivator. Yes, some will withstand it. Most won't. How many lives are worth ensuring the enemy is all comfy and cozy?

 

[trobinett]

Help me out here, please.

Terrorist have suddenly become "soldiers"?

If I recall my history correctly, saboteurs, spy's, and others that don't wear the uniform of their nation are HUNG, torture would be the least of their worries, but certainly deserved.

 

[jillian]

Help me out here, please.

Terrorist have suddenly become "soldiers"?

If I recall my history correctly, saboteurs, spy's, and others that don't wear the uniform of their nation are HUNG, torture would be the least of their worries, but certainly deserved.

The problem is that we're fighting a war against an ideology, not armies.

Sabateurs, spies, etc., may get hung, but not without charges and a trial... not by this country. If our freedoms don't break down under pressure, then what are we?

As for torture, I don't think that's ever been on the table for us. It's not what we're about. And if we're better than the bad guys, we need to act it. The fact that the information that comes from people who are tortured isn't reliable only makes it more pointless to wreck our reputation on this issue. It's the one thing McCain has right on these issues.

 

[Gunny]

The problem is that we're fighting a war against an ideology, not armies.

Sabateurs, spies, etc., may get hung, but not without charges and a trial... not by this country. If our freedoms don't break down under pressure, then what are we?

As for torture, I don't think that's ever been on the table for us. It's not what we're about. And if we're better than the bad guys, we need to act it. The fact that the information that comes from people who are tortured isn't reliable only makes it more pointless to wreck our reputation on this issue. It's the one thing McCain has right on these issues.

It is not an "ideology" that straps a bomb to its chest and detonates it in a crowded market.

I agree that torture is not what we're about. That's why I disagree with those who try to portray it as such for partisan politics.

Anything that causes another any kind of physical or mental duress can be defined as torture. Yet for some reason, the STILL haven't taken (c)rap so-called music off the air.

 

[jillian]

It is not an "ideology" that straps a bomb to its chest and detonates it in a crowded market.

I agree that torture is not what we're about. That's why I disagree with those who try to portray it as such for partisan politics.

Anything that causes another any kind of physical or mental duress can be defined as torture. Yet for some reason, the STILL haven't taken (c)rap so-called music off the air.

Actually, it is... sorta We couldn't have won WWII fighting a war against facism. A "war on terrorism" is no different from that or a "war on drugs" or a "war on poverty"... just words. And terrorism insn't even really an ideology, it's a technique. Are we waging war against a technique?

We can agree on the partisan politics thing, but then maybe every repub candidate with the exception of mccain shouldn't use support of torture it to show how "tough on terrorism" they are.

As Potter Stewart said about obscenity, we know torture when we see it. It's not that difficult to tell the difference between reasonable interrogation techniques designed to get reliable info and torture.

 

[Gunny]

Actually, it is... sorta We couldn't have won WWII fighting a war against facism. A "war on terrorism" is no different from that or a "war on drugs" or a "war on poverty"... just words. And terrorism insn't even really an ideology, it's a technique. Are we waging war against a technique?

We were in fact fighting a war against facism. It just happened at that time to be embodied in the conventional armies of the collective Axis nations.

I DO understand your point though. We don't actually have a declared war against just an ideal anymore now than then. You can call it a "war on terrorism," but the fact is, the acual war is being waged against terrorists. Ideals don't kill ... it's their manifestation that does.

We can agree on the partisan politics thing, but then maybe every repub candidate with the exception of mccain shouldn't use support of torture it to show how "tough on terrorism" they are.

I haven't seen a Republican candidate support torture.

As Potter Stewart said about obscenity, we know torture when we see it. It's not that difficult to tell the difference between reasonable interrogation techniques designed to get reliable info and torture.

Which translates to: subjective as Hell. What I've been saying.

 

[doniston]

I haven't seen a Republican candidate support torture.




QUOTE] Of course not, but Torture by any other name is still torture.

 

[pegwinn]

Last night Martians came and visited me and took me to their spaceship. They refused to let me phone home, and instead they water boarded me and made me poise naked for pictures. During the different torture sessions, I heard them say that they were working with NASA and Air force. They demanded that I have sex with a Martian goddess who looked like Julia Roberts. I was returned to my home before dawn and they tried to wipe away my memory of the encounter with a mind altering drug. For some unknown reason, the drug did not take. I thinking of bring a lawsuit against NASA and the Air force. What to you all think?

I think they were supposed to visit me last night with the Julia clone. Did they leave you a phone number so I can call and reschedule?

that your a babbling irrelevant fool

heh, pot, meet kettle.

THat is the obvious type of comment one could expect to come from you. Is it at all possible that the allegations are accurate?

Of course it is possible. Is it proveable? Beyond a reasonable doubt? I doubt it.

 

[Annie]

I think they were supposed to visit me last night with the Julia clone. Did they leave you a phone number so I can call and reschedule?



heh, pot, meet kettle.



Of course it is possible. Is it proveable? Beyond a reasonable doubt? I doubt it.

While some might doubt the story, I know it to be true. The message was written in my sugar bowl this morning. Seriously.

 

[Shogun]

There's quite a difference between waterboarding and how the Japanese treated POW's during WWII.

Our values aren't getting destroyed, but I disagree with the "values as a country." There have ALWAYS been two different sets of values all the way back to the Federalists and the Whigs.

The fact is, "torture" by definition can be defined as the most benign of things, and THAT is what this is all about. Using literalism to point a finger.

It's a known fact pain is a great motivator. Yes, some will withstand it. Most won't. How many lives are worth ensuring the enemy is all comfy and cozy?

Could you illustrate the difference between both what we do and what the japanese did? Where do you draw the line? five seconds of poured water is torture while 4 seconds is "harsh interogations"? If we were not aware of the nature of the practice why did we ever rendition anyone to Egypt where this kind of thing is acceptable?

Lastly, does it sit well knowing that anything we allow ourselves to do will be used against our own troops someday? Are you comfortable backing waterboarding as non-torture if, say, iran were holding 20 of our military and "harshly" questioning them?


Do you think that I could make you admit that you have a vagina with enough waterboarding? If so, why is asking this question vital to our identity as a nation that does not act like dictators?

 

[pegwinn]

Could you illustrate the difference between both what we do and what the japanese did? According to sources we don't inflict horrendous pain, starve prisoners, work them to death while starving them, random beatings simply for the sake of beating, and using the family Katana to behead the other four when the fifth tried to escape. Where do you draw the line? For me (and me only) you escalate until you get the desired response. Then you verify it and if needed go from there... But I think your question was on the nature of what we v. Japan did vice the the physical acts. The bottom line is that the dogma of Imperial Japan towards captives was the same as that of the rancher to cattle. We provide as much dignity, and humanitarian respect as is possible. The Japanese literally didn't care if you lived or died screaming. five seconds of poured water is torture while 4 seconds is "harsh interogations"? If we were not aware of the nature of the practice why did we ever rendition anyone to Egypt where this kind of thing is acceptable?

Lastly, does it sit well knowing that anything we allow ourselves to do will be used against our own troops someday? Are you comfortable backing waterboarding as non-torture if, say, iran were holding 20 of our military and "harshly" questioning them? Actually, we already expect our enemies to do worse. Hence the training received and the code of conduct.


Do you think that I could make you admit that you have a vagina with enough waterboarding? If so, why is asking this question vital to our identity as a nation that does not act like dictators?

Now, for the last question you asked... I would assume that the physical conducted on the prisoner upon capture would answer it.

 

[steeliniraq]

Actually, he questioned the truth of it.

When your government decides to put mercenaries in charge of prisons and won't disavow torture as a technique, issues like this are going to come up.

Yea thats right!! Stick up for the people that are arrested for reasons in Iraq. I tell you my heart just breaks every time I hear of these low-lifes being mistreated! Then when they get out and say that being arrested wasnt fun and they were "mistreated" lets get all up in arms and start blaming the U.S. government, military, and contractors over there!!!

People like you make me f***ing sick!! Their sorry arses wouldn't even be in jail if they weren't making bombs, blowing kids up, killing Iraqi and U.S. soldiers, and overall doing the wrong thing!! But hey instead of blaming those people we will blame big brother, right? You people have no idea what is happening over there. You have no idea how well the enemy knows how to manipulate all you liberals out there that believe in the better well being of the few over the better well being of the many.

I'm sick of hearing sorry arses cry about the worst people on earth being mistreated. Give me one damn good reason why I should care about a terrorist being "tortured" anyone?

 

[eots]

Yea thats right!! Stick up for the people that are arrested for reasons in Iraq. I tell you my heart just breaks every time I hear of these low-lifes being mistreated! Then when they get out and say that being arrested wasnt fun and they were "mistreated" lets get all up in arms and start blaming the U.S. government, military, and contractors over there!!!

People like you make me f***ing sick!! Their sorry arses wouldn't even be in jail if they weren't making bombs, blowing kids up, killing Iraqi and U.S. soldiers, and overall doing the wrong thing!! But hey instead of blaming those people we will blame big brother, right? You people have no idea what is happening over there. You have no idea how well the enemy knows how to manipulate all you liberals out there that believe in the better well being of the few over the better well being of the many.

I'm sick of hearing sorry arses cry about the worst people on earth being mistreated. Give me one damn good reason why I should care about a terrorist being "tortured" anyone?

hey nipple head.. if they where detained for blowing up children etc they would not be released and out complaining about their treatment..their out because they even without the legal burden of proof there was still no reason found to detain and torture them further ..in other words most probably innocent..or does that matter

 

[jillian]

Yea thats right!! Stick up for the people that are arrested for reasons in Iraq. I tell you my heart just breaks every time I hear of these low-lifes being mistreated! Then when they get out and say that being arrested wasnt fun and they were "mistreated" lets get all up in arms and start blaming the U.S. government, military, and contractors over there!!!

People like you make me f***ing sick!! Their sorry arses wouldn't even be in jail if they weren't making bombs, blowing kids up, killing Iraqi and U.S. soldiers, and overall doing the wrong thing!! But hey instead of blaming those people we will blame big brother, right? You people have no idea what is happening over there. You have no idea how well the enemy knows how to manipulate all you liberals out there that believe in the better well being of the few over the better well being of the many.

I'm sick of hearing sorry arses cry about the worst people on earth being mistreated. Give me one damn good reason why I should care about a terrorist being "tortured" anyone?

Because if we're torturing them, we're no better than they are. But why would someone who talks about "you liberals" get that? I figure you wouldn't. And, given you have no clue about my politics on the subject of the middle east, you might want to check yourself while making those types of sweeping generalizations.

 

[tigerbob]

Give me one damn good reason why I should care about a terrorist being "tortured" anyone?

My answers assume you live in a democratic country.

Because presumably that sort of thing does not happen in your country, even to those suspected of the most heinous offences.

Because despite what you say about the better well being of the few over the better well being of the many (sic), one of the key tenets of a democratic society is protection of the individual or minorities from the tyranny of the majority or of a few powerful individuals.

Because presumably you believe that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

I'll give you one other reason, though not my own. In the play "A Man for all Seasons", Robert Bolt provides a conversation which expresses the argument far more eloquently than I ever could.

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

Everyone understands that, in a war, things happen that would normally not happen. These things are saddening, but sometimes understandable. But to say you don't care makes a mockery of the very things - freedom, democracy and the rule of law - that millions have died fighting for so that people like you might have the benefit of them.

 

[Gunny]

Could you illustrate the difference between both what we do and what the japanese did? Where do you draw the line? five seconds of poured water is torture while 4 seconds is "harsh interogations"? If we were not aware of the nature of the practice why did we ever rendition anyone to Egypt where this kind of thing is acceptable?

Lastly, does it sit well knowing that anything we allow ourselves to do will be used against our own troops someday? Are you comfortable backing waterboarding as non-torture if, say, iran were holding 20 of our military and "harshly" questioning them?


Do you think that I could make you admit that you have a vagina with enough waterboarding? If so, why is asking this question vital to our identity as a nation that does not act like dictators?

The difference? Well, for one, we provide prisoners with food and medical treatment equal to and sometimes better than what we provide our own people. The Japanese provided almost no medical treatment and little food.

The Japanese are also on record for beating prisoners, killing them out of hand, crippling them, puttin gbamboo slivers under their fingernails and lightinng them on fire.

Oh, and their sophisticated method of "waterboarding" was sticking a prisoner's head in a bucket of water for as long as they felt like.

As a retired Marine who spent a quarter of 20 years at the "tip of the spear" abroad, I fully expected that if captured to be tortured far worse than anything that happens to any US prisoners, if it so suited the desires of my captors.

The fact is, those other countries, or in this case terrorist elements do it because they can, and they know it makes a certain political element in this country squeal and want to quit. It only matters to them if WE do it for the same latter reason in previous sentence.

 

[Gunny]

Because if we're torturing them, we're no better than they are. But why would someone who talks about "you liberals" get that? I figure you wouldn't. And, given you have no clue about my politics on the subject of the middle east, you might want to check yourself while making those types of sweeping generalizations.

One, he has either recently returned or is still in Iraq.

Two, their are degrees to coersion -- what you are blankly labelling torture (a sweeping generalization? ) -- that does not immediately equate us with them. Waterboarding does NOT equate to being beheaded with a butcher's knife.

And I DO get annoyed with that "it makes us no better than them" argument as well. Sure we are. We are morally in the right because they are nothing more than fanatical religious scumbags who use terror and murder in an attempt to force their religion on others.

Using whatever tactics/methods that are effective does not lower my personal morals, our collective morals, nor the fact that we are in the right. It allows me to defeat my enemy, and not give him some arbitrary set of holier-than-thou rules to exploit me with.

I will also point out that it does not go unnoticed that the same people -- liberals -- who use this "it make us no better then them" argument and wish to instill an arbitrary set of morals on fighting me are the very FIRST to squeal about anyone daring to impose morals on them here at home. Quite the double standard.

 

[pegwinn]

Because if we're torturing them, we're no better than they are. But why would someone who talks about "you liberals" get that? I figure you wouldn't. And, given you have no clue about my politics on the subject of the middle east, you might want to check yourself while making those types of sweeping generalizations.

Jillian, of course we are better than they are. We do not, as a matter of normal SOP, torture prisoners. It is a demonstrated fact that the majority of our prisioners are well fed, well housed, not slave driven, not brainwashed, and are provided with considerations to thier home culture. When we do "bad things" it is an exigency of need.

You may find the above to be "apologist" in nature. That is understandable for those who find a clear demarcation between black and white. On this issue, as in Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc; there are far more shades of gray.

Merry Christmas.

 

[steeliniraq]

hey nipple head.. if they where detained for blowing up children etc they would not be released and out complaining about their treatment..their out because they even without the legal burden of proof there was still no reason found to detain and torture them further ..in other words most probably innocent..or does that matter

Exactly how many tours have you served in Iraq?!?!? From the sounds of it you must have served at least 5!! I just got back from my 4th and I am going back in 5 months for my 5th. People who have been sentenced for paying bombers to blow themselves up are being released because of over population in the jails. People who fire rockets, I.E.D. emplacers, people who were all arrested for having I.E.D. making material all released last time I was there, but hey you know more then me!!!! Let me know when you get a clue of what is actually going on over there and then come back at me!

 

[MasterChief]

Could you illustrate the difference between both what we do and what the Japanese did?

Please tell me you are not that ignorant--of the 15 to 20 thousand military personnel captured at Bataan in 1942, less than 600 came out alive--and they all told stories of torture, random murder, starvation, forced labour camps or human experimentation. Have you not read Flyboys about how Japanese officers killed American fliers and ate them? Have you never read about how Japanese captured Americans and cut off their penis and stuffed it in their mouth before bayoneting them to death. Flag of Our Fathers is where you can read the account of that fact. Japanese, when captured and very few did because of their culture of military honor, were given food, water and medical treatment. My uncle received a piece of shrapnel in the ass at Guadalcanal when a group of captured Japs killed themselves with a grenade he was trying to get transport to a POW camp. Does illustrate the difference for you?