2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate

[dblack]

The thread states, "2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate". Pissing contests aside, what would replace the individual mandate?

nothing.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The thread states, "2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate". Pissing contests aside, what would replace the individual mandate?

nothing.

Concise, not clear or elaborating. Are you suggesting 'The Market' is self regulating and the government needs to get out of the way? Or, nothing, as in Romney and the other detractors haven't thought that far ahead?

 

[dblack]

The thread states, "2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate". Pissing contests aside, what would replace the individual mandate?

nothing.

Concise, not clear or elaborating. Are you suggesting 'The Market' is self regulating and the government needs to get out of the way? Or, nothing, as in Romney and the other detractors haven't thought that far ahead?

Either or. I do think markets self regulate, when we let them, but 'nothing' in the sense of "haven't thought that far ahead" is better than leaving the impending mandate in place. The notion that we must 'replace' it with something assumes the mandate is better than nothing. It think it is worse than nothing.

 

[Syphon]

nothing.

Concise, not clear or elaborating. Are you suggesting 'The Market' is self regulating and the government needs to get out of the way? Or, nothing, as in Romney and the other detractors haven't thought that far ahead?

Either or. I do think markets self regulate, when we let them, but 'nothing' in the sense of "haven't thought that far ahead" is better than leaving the impending mandate in place. The notion that we must 'replace' it with something assumes the mandate is better than nothing. It think it is worse than nothing.

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

 

[dblack]

Concise, not clear or elaborating. Are you suggesting 'The Market' is self regulating and the government needs to get out of the way? Or, nothing, as in Romney and the other detractors haven't thought that far ahead?

Either or. I do think markets self regulate, when we let them, but 'nothing' in the sense of "haven't thought that far ahead" is better than leaving the impending mandate in place. The notion that we must 'replace' it with something assumes the mandate is better than nothing. It think it is worse than nothing.

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

I don't know that it's ever been tried. For as long as I can remember there's been lots of regulation around those things. It's shitty regulation, granted, designed to insulate the purveyors of crap rather than consumers. But then that's how most overreaching regulator schemes pan out.

Also, before you go there - self regulating markets don't require anarchy, and basic laws regarding transparency and accountability are essential to any market. Hopeful you get that, but I have my doubts.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Either or. I do think markets self regulate, when we let them, but 'nothing' in the sense of "haven't thought that far ahead" is better than leaving the impending mandate in place. The notion that we must 'replace' it with something assumes the mandate is better than nothing. It think it is worse than nothing.

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

I don't know that it's ever been tried. For as long as I can remember there's been lots of regulation around those things. It's shitty regulation, granted, designed to insulate the purveyors of crap rather than consumers. But then that's how most overreaching regulator schemes pan out.

Also, before you go there - self regulating markets don't require anarchy, and basic laws regarding transparency and accountability are essential to any market. Hopeful you get that, but I have my doubts.

Has there ever existed a "self regulating market"?

I suppose a cartel might qualify and become the norm without government interference.

 

[The Rabbi]

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

I don't know that it's ever been tried. For as long as I can remember there's been lots of regulation around those things. It's shitty regulation, granted, designed to insulate the purveyors of crap rather than consumers. But then that's how most overreaching regulator schemes pan out.

Also, before you go there - self regulating markets don't require anarchy, and basic laws regarding transparency and accountability are essential to any market. Hopeful you get that, but I have my doubts.

Has there ever existed a "self regulating market"?

I suppose a cartel might qualify and become the norm without government interference.

All markets are self regulating. Until gov't steps in.

 

[The Rabbi]

Concise, not clear or elaborating. Are you suggesting 'The Market' is self regulating and the government needs to get out of the way? Or, nothing, as in Romney and the other detractors haven't thought that far ahead?

Either or. I do think markets self regulate, when we let them, but 'nothing' in the sense of "haven't thought that far ahead" is better than leaving the impending mandate in place. The notion that we must 'replace' it with something assumes the mandate is better than nothing. It think it is worse than nothing.

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

those markets were heavily regulated. How did that work out?

Actually apart from the heavy regulation they worked out exactly they were supposed to. People who took enormous risks figured out that "risk" means you can lose lots of money. Smart people made money, stupid people lost money. Politicians used the opportunity to reward friends and hurt enemies.

 

[Syphon]

Either or. I do think markets self regulate, when we let them, but 'nothing' in the sense of "haven't thought that far ahead" is better than leaving the impending mandate in place. The notion that we must 'replace' it with something assumes the mandate is better than nothing. It think it is worse than nothing.

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

those markets were heavily regulated. How did that work out?

Actually apart from the heavy regulation they worked out exactly they were supposed to. People who took enormous risks figured out that "risk" means you can lose lots of money. Smart people made money, stupid people lost money. Politicians used the opportunity to reward friends and hurt enemies.

derivative were not regulated
mortgages were deregulated.

nice fail

 

[Jarhead]

so if your children are a reflection of yourself, do we attribute bad parenting to the fact that he wanted someone else to pay for his needs? or are you simply writing that one off on "society"?

guess stove and oven to make food is now non essential, or that microwave to make food is non essential, or that refrigerator to store food is non essential. you just destroyed your own argument.

so how much does a family need to make in order to have a "responsible" family in your eyes? $100k? $200k?

so you lived in someone's basement. does everyone have that option? so quit trying to say just because you did it, everyone should do it. youre extremely judgement for someone who is 54. youre also very intolerant seeing as the fact that you tell people how to live their lives instead of giving them the choice and how to do that themselves.

so now health care is "free"..... when did this magical system come to fruition? i never claimed health care should be free, i never mentioned HARP loans, so now whos creating the strawman argument?

cell phones and video games didnt exist when you were a kid, so nice failed argument again.

"Now...healthcare is a burden many dont want to have to worry about."

great argument for universal health care and you didnt even see it.

I am going to respond to you and I ask that you stoip INTENTIONALLY taking what I say out of context and, instead, try to understand what I am saying.

Point one....no, it is not bad parenting. If it were bad parenting, I would have paid his electric bill and cable bill for him as opposed to suggesting he sell his car. Instead, I see it as a political thing. We have politiicans ouit there saying those that did not read contracts and signed anyway are victims. 30 years ago, you were deemed irresponsible for doing that. Nowadays, we hear politicians saying that those that lied on their mortgage applications about income are victims. 30 years ago, those people were cited as criminlas seeing as the application is deemed as an affidavit.

Point two..I never said a stove and a refirgerator are non essentials. I said TV's and microwaves are. And yes, a microwave is a convcenience, but not essential.

Point three....how much one needs to be able to start a family is a figure that is non definable. It is idfferent for each family. For example, when we decided to have a child, we agreed that while we were tryiung to concneive and for the 9 months after conception, we would not spend any extra money above and beyond our needs. No vacations, no dinners out...nothing above and beyond....like my parents did. That way we could save even more "just in case"....

Point four...yes...everyone has the option to live in a basement. I did not know the person..I saw an ad....it was 285 a month for a basement studio apartment. We would have liked better...and could have afforded better....but we deemed it best to minimize our comfort so we could build for our future.

Point 5...and this one deserves to be bolded. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF TELLING OTHERS HOW THEY SHOULD LIVE THEIR LIVES. I NEVER DID IT AND NEVER WILL DO IT. We are in a debate and I am offering my opinion...and I am using my history to back it up.

I never said cell phoines were around when I was a kid.,..but video games were....atari and beta max...but that is irrelevant...When I was a kid we had a great time without cells and video games....bnut nowadays, all need to have them for a great time...but that is irrelevant.

Now for the finale....why do I see you as one who debates as a child?

Becuase you have YET to ask me anything about how I did it...yoiu have not attmepted to see the virtue in what I am saying....for if you truly wanted to see and understand the other side, you would have asked me things such as.."what kind of business can you start with little or no money"...and you would have asked me..."what made you hgomeless and what was your turning point"

I have MANY TIMES OJN HERE said "interesting"...or..."I see your point" to those I debate.

You?

Childishly spin what I say.....put words in my mouth....and tell me I am wrong.

Grow up and we can have fun...and learn...continue debating as a know it all, and I have no interest.

 

[Syphon]

so if your children are a reflection of yourself, do we attribute bad parenting to the fact that he wanted someone else to pay for his needs? or are you simply writing that one off on "society"?

guess stove and oven to make food is now non essential, or that microwave to make food is non essential, or that refrigerator to store food is non essential. you just destroyed your own argument.

so how much does a family need to make in order to have a "responsible" family in your eyes? $100k? $200k?

so you lived in someone's basement. does everyone have that option? so quit trying to say just because you did it, everyone should do it. youre extremely judgement for someone who is 54. youre also very intolerant seeing as the fact that you tell people how to live their lives instead of giving them the choice and how to do that themselves.

so now health care is "free"..... when did this magical system come to fruition? i never claimed health care should be free, i never mentioned HARP loans, so now whos creating the strawman argument?

cell phones and video games didnt exist when you were a kid, so nice failed argument again.

"Now...healthcare is a burden many dont want to have to worry about."

great argument for universal health care and you didnt even see it.

I am going to respond to you and I ask that you stoip INTENTIONALLY taking what I say out of context and, instead, try to understand what I am saying.

Point one....no, it is not bad parenting. If it were bad parenting, I would have paid his electric bill and cable bill for him as opposed to suggesting he sell his car. Instead, I see it as a political thing. We have politiicans ouit there saying those that did not read contracts and signed anyway are victims. 30 years ago, you were deemed irresponsible for doing that. Nowadays, we hear politicians saying that those that lied on their mortgage applications about income are victims. 30 years ago, those people were cited as criminlas seeing as the application is deemed as an affidavit.

Point two..I never said a stove and a refirgerator are non essentials. I said TV's and microwaves are. And yes, a microwave is a convcenience, but not essential.

Point three....how much one needs to be able to start a family is a figure that is non definable. It is idfferent for each family. For example, when we decided to have a child, we agreed that while we were tryiung to concneive and for the 9 months after conception, we would not spend any extra money above and beyond our needs. No vacations, no dinners out...nothing above and beyond....like my parents did. That way we could save even more "just in case"....

Point four...yes...everyone has the option to live in a basement. I did not know the person..I saw an ad....it was 285 a month for a basement studio apartment. We would have liked better...and could have afforded better....but we deemed it best to minimize our comfort so we could build for our future.

Point 5...and this one deserves to be bolded. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF TELLING OTHERS HOW THEY SHOULD LIVE THEIR LIVES. I NEVER DID IT AND NEVER WILL DO IT. We are in a debate and I am offering my opinion...and I am using my history to back it up.

I never said cell phoines were around when I was a kid.,..but video games were....atari and beta max...but that is irrelevant...When I was a kid we had a great time without cells and video games....bnut nowadays, all need to have them for a great time...but that is irrelevant.

Now for the finale....why do I see you as one who debates as a child?

Becuase you have YET to ask me anything about how I did it...yoiu have not attmepted to see the virtue in what I am saying....for if you truly wanted to see and understand the other side, you would have asked me things such as.."what kind of business can you start with little or no money"...and you would have asked me..."what made you hgomeless and what was your turning point"

I have MANY TIMES OJN HERE said "interesting"...or..."I see your point" to those I debate.

You?

Childishly spin what I say.....put words in my mouth....and tell me I am wrong.

Grow up and we can have fun...and learn...continue debating as a know it all, and I have no interest.

oh i can readily admit i dont know it all, i just know a hell of a lot more than you do.

 

[Jarhead]

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

I don't know that it's ever been tried. For as long as I can remember there's been lots of regulation around those things. It's shitty regulation, granted, designed to insulate the purveyors of crap rather than consumers. But then that's how most overreaching regulator schemes pan out.

Also, before you go there - self regulating markets don't require anarchy, and basic laws regarding transparency and accountability are essential to any market. Hopeful you get that, but I have my doubts.

Has there ever existed a "self regulating market"?

I suppose a cartel might qualify and become the norm without government interference.

wrong.

Most industries in a "pure competition" free market are oligopolies.

And one of the virtues of an oligopoly is they tend to be self regulating.

 

[Jarhead]

so if your children are a reflection of yourself, do we attribute bad parenting to the fact that he wanted someone else to pay for his needs? or are you simply writing that one off on "society"?

guess stove and oven to make food is now non essential, or that microwave to make food is non essential, or that refrigerator to store food is non essential. you just destroyed your own argument.

so how much does a family need to make in order to have a "responsible" family in your eyes? $100k? $200k?

so you lived in someone's basement. does everyone have that option? so quit trying to say just because you did it, everyone should do it. youre extremely judgement for someone who is 54. youre also very intolerant seeing as the fact that you tell people how to live their lives instead of giving them the choice and how to do that themselves.

so now health care is "free"..... when did this magical system come to fruition? i never claimed health care should be free, i never mentioned HARP loans, so now whos creating the strawman argument?

cell phones and video games didnt exist when you were a kid, so nice failed argument again.

"Now...healthcare is a burden many dont want to have to worry about."

great argument for universal health care and you didnt even see it.

I am going to respond to you and I ask that you stoip INTENTIONALLY taking what I say out of context and, instead, try to understand what I am saying.

Point one....no, it is not bad parenting. If it were bad parenting, I would have paid his electric bill and cable bill for him as opposed to suggesting he sell his car. Instead, I see it as a political thing. We have politiicans ouit there saying those that did not read contracts and signed anyway are victims. 30 years ago, you were deemed irresponsible for doing that. Nowadays, we hear politicians saying that those that lied on their mortgage applications about income are victims. 30 years ago, those people were cited as criminlas seeing as the application is deemed as an affidavit.

Point two..I never said a stove and a refirgerator are non essentials. I said TV's and microwaves are. And yes, a microwave is a convcenience, but not essential.

Point three....how much one needs to be able to start a family is a figure that is non definable. It is idfferent for each family. For example, when we decided to have a child, we agreed that while we were tryiung to concneive and for the 9 months after conception, we would not spend any extra money above and beyond our needs. No vacations, no dinners out...nothing above and beyond....like my parents did. That way we could save even more "just in case"....

Point four...yes...everyone has the option to live in a basement. I did not know the person..I saw an ad....it was 285 a month for a basement studio apartment. We would have liked better...and could have afforded better....but we deemed it best to minimize our comfort so we could build for our future.

Point 5...and this one deserves to be bolded. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF TELLING OTHERS HOW THEY SHOULD LIVE THEIR LIVES. I NEVER DID IT AND NEVER WILL DO IT. We are in a debate and I am offering my opinion...and I am using my history to back it up.

I never said cell phoines were around when I was a kid.,..but video games were....atari and beta max...but that is irrelevant...When I was a kid we had a great time without cells and video games....bnut nowadays, all need to have them for a great time...but that is irrelevant.

Now for the finale....why do I see you as one who debates as a child?

Becuase you have YET to ask me anything about how I did it...yoiu have not attmepted to see the virtue in what I am saying....for if you truly wanted to see and understand the other side, you would have asked me things such as.."what kind of business can you start with little or no money"...and you would have asked me..."what made you hgomeless and what was your turning point"

I have MANY TIMES OJN HERE said "interesting"...or..."I see your point" to those I debate.

You?

Childishly spin what I say.....put words in my mouth....and tell me I am wrong.

Grow up and we can have fun...and learn...continue debating as a know it all, and I have no interest.

oh i can readily admit i dont know it all, i just know a hell of a lot more than you do.

wow....thats the best you got?

It must be tough being you. Dumb as nails and arrogant....all at the same time.

That is a recipe for failure...

And, of course, you will blame the successful when you fail.

 

[Syphon]

I am going to respond to you and I ask that you stoip INTENTIONALLY taking what I say out of context and, instead, try to understand what I am saying.

Point one....no, it is not bad parenting. If it were bad parenting, I would have paid his electric bill and cable bill for him as opposed to suggesting he sell his car. Instead, I see it as a political thing. We have politiicans ouit there saying those that did not read contracts and signed anyway are victims. 30 years ago, you were deemed irresponsible for doing that. Nowadays, we hear politicians saying that those that lied on their mortgage applications about income are victims. 30 years ago, those people were cited as criminlas seeing as the application is deemed as an affidavit.

Point two..I never said a stove and a refirgerator are non essentials. I said TV's and microwaves are. And yes, a microwave is a convcenience, but not essential.

Point three....how much one needs to be able to start a family is a figure that is non definable. It is idfferent for each family. For example, when we decided to have a child, we agreed that while we were tryiung to concneive and for the 9 months after conception, we would not spend any extra money above and beyond our needs. No vacations, no dinners out...nothing above and beyond....like my parents did. That way we could save even more "just in case"....

Point four...yes...everyone has the option to live in a basement. I did not know the person..I saw an ad....it was 285 a month for a basement studio apartment. We would have liked better...and could have afforded better....but we deemed it best to minimize our comfort so we could build for our future.

Point 5...and this one deserves to be bolded. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF TELLING OTHERS HOW THEY SHOULD LIVE THEIR LIVES. I NEVER DID IT AND NEVER WILL DO IT. We are in a debate and I am offering my opinion...and I am using my history to back it up.

I never said cell phoines were around when I was a kid.,..but video games were....atari and beta max...but that is irrelevant...When I was a kid we had a great time without cells and video games....bnut nowadays, all need to have them for a great time...but that is irrelevant.

Now for the finale....why do I see you as one who debates as a child?

Becuase you have YET to ask me anything about how I did it...yoiu have not attmepted to see the virtue in what I am saying....for if you truly wanted to see and understand the other side, you would have asked me things such as.."what kind of business can you start with little or no money"...and you would have asked me..."what made you hgomeless and what was your turning point"

I have MANY TIMES OJN HERE said "interesting"...or..."I see your point" to those I debate.

You?

Childishly spin what I say.....put words in my mouth....and tell me I am wrong.

Grow up and we can have fun...and learn...continue debating as a know it all, and I have no interest.

oh i can readily admit i dont know it all, i just know a hell of a lot more than you do.

wow....thats the best you got?

It must be tough being you. Dumb as nails and arrogant....all at the same time.

That is a recipe for failure...

And, of course, you will blame the successful when you fail.

im already successful at a very young age, and yes it is tough living the life i live.... real tough

 

[Jarhead]

oh i can readily admit i dont know it all, i just know a hell of a lot more than you do.

wow....thats the best you got?

It must be tough being you. Dumb as nails and arrogant....all at the same time.

That is a recipe for failure...

And, of course, you will blame the successful when you fail.

im already successful at a very young age, and yes it is tough living the life i live.... real tough

hey...good for you. Really...

Sold my first company at 28.....5 years earlier...to the month...I was living under a boardwalk.

Work hard, make some sacrifices....and one can be successful

 

[Katiegrrl0]

though I have some question over whether or not we should have laws leveled against us if the majority doesn't want it.

The majority doesn't make law. I am sure black America is happy for that. At the time the civil rights laws were put in force the majority was not about to help them. I'm sure the mixed marriage couples are happy as well because the majority of America was against that as well.
It's really a good thing the majority doesn't always get it's way.

 

[Jarhead]

though I have some question over whether or not we should have laws leveled against us if the majority doesn't want it.

The majority doesn't make law. I am sure black America is happy for that. At the time the civil rights laws were put in force the majority was not about to help them. I'm sure the mixed marriage couples are happy as well because the majority of America was against that as well.
It's really a good thing the majority doesn't always get it's way.

I could not agree more.

 

[dblack]

though I have some question over whether or not we should have laws leveled against us if the majority doesn't want it.

The majority doesn't make law. I am sure black America is happy for that. At the time the civil rights laws were put in force the majority was not about to help them. I'm sure the mixed marriage couples are happy as well because the majority of America was against that as well.
It's really a good thing the majority doesn't always get it's way.

Well said. It's this principle that is our last hope against PPACA.

 

[dblack]

how did self regulation of derivatives on wall street work out?
how did self regulation of the mortgage industry work out?

those markets were heavily regulated. How did that work out?

Actually apart from the heavy regulation they worked out exactly they were supposed to. People who took enormous risks figured out that "risk" means you can lose lots of money. Smart people made money, stupid people lost money. Politicians used the opportunity to reward friends and hurt enemies.

derivative were not regulated
mortgages were deregulated.

nice fail

I see. Just plug your ears and chant to yourself. No, there were plenty of regulations around them. They were just manipulated by the lobbyists to be meaningless - as most 'regulations' eventually are. You seem to be under this silly delusion that "regulations" mean we're all safe and sound. Depends on the regulations. When they are neutered by lobbyists and compliant politicians they are worse than no regulations at all. When that happens, the regulatory structure provides the illusion of security, and people are suckered into risky schemes they might otherwise be wary of.

Government should make sure people aren't lying, cheating and stealing - and let investors and securities firms decide for themselves how much risk they want to assume. It's when the corporatists try to secure their profits by manipulating government policy that things turn to shit. And your blind cheerleading for 'regulation' is exactly how they accomplish it. Wake up man. You're a complete dupe to the people you imagine you're fighting.

 

[Syphon]

those markets were heavily regulated. How did that work out?

Actually apart from the heavy regulation they worked out exactly they were supposed to. People who took enormous risks figured out that "risk" means you can lose lots of money. Smart people made money, stupid people lost money. Politicians used the opportunity to reward friends and hurt enemies.

derivative were not regulated
mortgages were deregulated.

nice fail

I see. Just plug your ears and chant to yourself. No, there were plenty of regulations around them. They were just manipulated by the lobbyists to be meaningless - as most 'regulations' eventually are. You seem to be under this silly delusion that "regulations" mean we're all safe and sound. Depends on the regulations. When they are neutered by lobbyists and compliant politicians they are worse than no regulations at all. When that happens, the regulatory structure provides the illusion of security, and people are suckered into risky schemes they might otherwise be wary of.

Government should make sure people aren't lying, cheating and stealing - and let investors and securities firms decide for themselves how much risk they want to assume. It's when the corporatists try to secure their profits by manipulating government policy that things turn to shit. And your blind cheerleading for 'regulation' is exactly how they accomplish it. Wake up man. You're a complete dupe to the people you imagine you're fighting.

derivatives were not regulated

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ce-on-derivatives-and-i-was-wrong-to-take-it/

STANFORD Magazine: March/April 2009 > Features > Brooksley Born