1.3 Billion

[armstrong80]

Originally posted by menewa
The first Amendment says "...Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting free exercise thereof..."

I think this proves the seperation right there. However, I also think this proves that children can pray where ever and whenever they want to. Be it in a public school or not.

I concede that there should be a separation, but it goes both ways. The ACLU wants laws in place that prohibit christianity in public places and they have won mone that one of their battles. But the way the first amendment is written, they can't make a law about religion one way or another, whether it be congress or a federal judge. Besides the fact that a judge can't make a law, but only interpret them as it applies to the constitution. Therefore by the constitution, a federal judge can't tell the Mississippi Legislature to take down a copy of the Ten Commandments, or tell 200 high school students they can't have a public prayer before a football game. Be cause in doing so, they set a precedent.Unless the precedent is struck down by an appeals court or the the Supreme Court, it then becomes the law.

 

[armstrong80]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
Also, as far a prayer in school, that doesn't have much to do with the ACLU as it does with the seperation of church and state which has been around far longer.

It has everything to do with the ACLU, becuse the ACLU's position is this: If ten christian openly pray and an athiest is within shouting distance, then the prayer is in violation of the athiest's civil liberties, because the prayer is being "forced" onto the athiest. The ACLU is the largest advocate for making prayer in schools illegal.

 

[proud_savagette]

Also, as far a prayer in school, that doesn't have much to do with the ACLU as it does with the seperation of church and state which has been around far longer.

I suggest that you take a look at this website. It says at the top, Prayer in School-ACLU news. all of them involve the ACLU and how they threw prayer out of schools. I think that violates Christian rights. Atheists have always had the right not to join in.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by armstrong80
It has everything to do with the ACLU, becuse the ACLU's position is this: If ten christian openly pray and an athiest is within shouting distance, then the prayer is in violation of the athiest's civil liberties, because the prayer is being "forced" onto the athiest. The ACLU is the largest advocate for making prayer in schools illegal.

The only way the ACLU would get involved in a situation like that would be if that athiest contacted the ACLU. But the ACLU would more and likely, not consider it if say, the Christians decided to pray on a side walk or in a mall because those are all public places where people are free to stop and pray if they wanted to. A public school is a little different.

Where these said Christians are praying have a lot to do with the scenario.

 

[proud_savagette]

Where these said Christians are praying have a lot to do with the scenario.

Was that a hint of sarcasm? If it was, may I ask why?

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
I suggest that you take a look at this website. It says at the top, Prayer in School-ACLU news. all of them involve the ACLU and how they threw prayer out of schools. I think that violates Christian rights. Atheists have always had the right not to join in.

Like I said, that has more to do with seperation of church and state. The ACLU promotes that seperation yes, but the seperation of church and state has been around a lot longer. I'm sure parents or even teachers/administrators were the ones who sought out the ACLU in each of those cases. It's not like the ACLU has a headquarter some where and a radar goes off everytime someone says a prayer in a public school in the middle of nowhere or in a big city. The ACLU has to be notified.

P.S.
I do look at the site, I sorta need to.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
Was that a hint of sarcasm? If it was, may I ask why?

No sarcasm. Don't read too much into it. I meant exactly what I said.

Unless there are city laws against a group of people momentarily stopping to pray on city street, the ACLU cannot say anything about it.

 

[007]

The ACLU promotes and advocates the devil's will.

Which is preferable? satan or God?

 

[proud_savagette]

Unless there are city laws against a group of people momentarily stopping to pray on city street, the ACLU cannot say anything about it.

not necessarily. They could always come up with a crack-pot idea that it's against the first amendment and then bring it to a judge.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
Like I said, that has more to do with seperation of church and state. The ACLU promotes that seperation yes, but the seperation of church and state has been around a lot longer. I'm sure parents or even teachers/administrators were the ones who sought out the ACLU in each of those cases. It's not like the ACLU has a headquarter some where and a radar goes off everytime someone says a prayer in a public school in the middle of nowhere or in a big city. The ACLU has to be notified.

P.S.
I do look at the site, I sorta need to.

The separation of chuch and state is an invented notion which has no constitututional basis. The constitution says congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. THis means they cannot force any religion on people and they must allow the establishment of other religions. IT does NOT mean nativity scenes should be outlawed, like some seem to think.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
Like I said, that has more to do with seperation of church and state. The ACLU promotes that seperation yes, but the seperation of church and state has been around a lot longer. I'm sure parents or even teachers/administrators were the ones who sought out the ACLU in each of those cases. It's not like the ACLU has a headquarter some where and a radar goes off everytime someone says a prayer in a public school in the middle of nowhere or in a big city. The ACLU has to be notified.

P.S.
I do look at the site, I sorta need to.

Edit:

I think, on a side note, that if Christian prayers are allowed in a public school, all forms of prayers should be allowed. But I think that would complicate things and disrupt schedules, simply because not every religion prays the same way as Christians/Catholics do.

I asked my Jehovah friend what she thought about prayer in public schools and she doesn't agree with it. She believes church and state should be seperate. She said "Because Jesus never got involved with politics or the laws of the land because of the time Cesear (of Rome) he was the leader of the time and Jesus never got involved in any of the political spectrum because he said his kingdom was no part of this world. Also, when Jesus spoke to the crowds they wanted to make him king because they had never heard anyone speak the way Jesus spoke. But Jesus withdrew from the crowds and did not become their king because he knew he was supposed to be a heavenly king and Jesus' kingdom was no part of this earth and the man made governments.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by Pale Rider
The ACLU promotes and advocates the devil's will.

Which is preferable? satan or God?

Neither, I'm a weak atheist. :

 

[dilloduck]

In its fight to protect individual rights, the ACLU has stomped on the rights of the majority. The majority is simply a group of individuals. How do you justify taking away the rights of the many to "protect" the rights of the few?

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by proud_savagette
not necessarily. They could always come up with a crack-pot idea that it's against the first amendment and then bring it to a judge.

Very true, there are always loop holes.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
Very true, there are always loop holes.

That's not a loophole. It's an abuse of the court system by activist judges.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by dilloduck
In its fight to protect individual rights, the ACLU has stomped on the rights of the majority. The majority is simply a group of individuals. How do you justify taking away the rights of the many to "protect" the rights of the few?

And who exactly would be the majority? It would seem to me that "the few" are also a small group of people just as is the majority as you so call it.

Seems to me that if there are more than 400,000 members that belong to the ACLU and even more non-members that support the ACLU, it cannot be as small as some people would like to think. So actually, they are defending the rights of many.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
And who exactly would be the majority? It would seem to me that "the few" are also a small group of people just as is the majority as you so call it.

Seems to me that if there are more than 400,000 members that belong to the ACLU and even more non-members that support the ACLU, it cannot be as small as some people would like to think. So actually, they are defending the rights of many.

They occassionally do something valid. Mosty they just try to oppress christians.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
That's not a loophole. It's an abuse of the court system by activist judges.

Well, it takes a loop hole in some cases to even have a case to go to court. After that it is up to a conservative/activist judge and jury.

 

[proud_savagette]

I asked my Jehovah friend what she thought about prayer in public schools and she doesn't agree with it. She believes church and state should be seperate. She said "Because Jesus never got involved with politics or the laws of the land because of the time Cesear (of Rome) he was the leader of the time and Jesus never got involved in any of the political spectrum because he said his kingdom was no part of this world.

That isn't true, though. the one major time Jesus actually got pissed off was when the government was interfering with religion, do you recall?
"Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those engaged in selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And he said to them, 'It is written My house shall be a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of thieves. ~ Mathhew 21:12
The only real place where he says anything about separation of church and state is concerning paying taxes to the empreror: Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech. They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are a truthful man and that You teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. And You are not concerned with anyone's opinion, for You do not regard a person's status. Tell us, then, what is Your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?" Knowing their malice, Jesus said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the coin that pays the census tax." Then they handed Him the Roman coin. He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?" They replied, "Caesar's." At that He said to them, "Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God." When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving Him they went away." ~Matthew 22:15-22
I don't recollect reading anything in there that implies not being able to pray at school.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
They occassionally do something valid. Mosty they just try to oppress christians.

I kind of agree with you.... I think.... :cof: