Zone1 the RCC is not from God

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

No man knows when Jesus is coming.

Every generation this He will come in their era, and they are all wrong and always will be wrong.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Herbert W. Armstrong

Herbert W. Armstrong (1892-1986) was a fundamentalist Christian radio- and later tele-evangelist who founded (1934) the Radio Church of God (renamed the Worldwide Church of God in 1968) and Ambassador College (founded in 1947; renamed Ambassador University after his death).[1] His son, Garner...

rationalwiki.org

This page contains too many unsourced statements and needs to be improved.

---

Herbert W. Armstrong could use some help. Please research the article's assertions. Whatever is credible should be sourced, and what is not should be removed.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

This page contains too many unsourced statements and needs to be improved.

---

Herbert W. Armstrong could use some help. Please research the article's assertions. Whatever is credible should be sourced, and what is not should be removed.

Having said that, I listen on the radio to Armstrong's preaching and liked a lot of it.

 

[surada]

Who says prophecy is never 2000 years out there? You? Are you now God? Chastising unrighteously Israel… Then limiting God in what he can do. Unbelievable pride.

Lolol it not from God. It's invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830.

This is the “Rapture” in Latter-day Saint belief, that the righteous living will be caught up, and the graves of the righteous opened at the moment of Christ’s Second Coming. Therefore, there will have been no “Rapture” before then.

Adam Ondi Ahman Mormonism
Adam-ondi-Ahman in modern Missouri
This event is not the same as the Lord’s appearance on the Mt. of Olives wherein He saves the more righteous Jews from slaughter at the conclusion of the War of Armageddon. The Armageddon experience will precede the Second Coming. Also preceding the Second Coming will be at least two other appearances of Christ — the coming of Christ to His temple, and His conference at Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri (the site of the original Garden of Eden), where the prophets will turn the keys of their dispensations over to Adam, who will then give all the keys to Christ for His millennial reign on the earth.

Mormon Doctrine: The Rapture - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

www.mormonwiki.com

 

[surada]

This page contains too many unsourced statements and needs to be improved.

---

Herbert W. Armstrong could use some help. Please research the article's assertions. Whatever is credible should be sourced, and what is not should be removed.

There's lots of information about Hebert W Armstrong.

It's considered a cult. It's been disbanded and renounced.

 

[Zebra]

A bit ridiculous to claim the Catholic Church did not “come from God” when that is what all of Christianity was for 1500 years.

A bit ridiculous to claim the Catholic Church did not “come from God” when that is what all of Christianity was for 1500 years.

good answer!

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

good answer!

No, it was one part of a huge movement with thousands of schisms.

 

[Cougarbear]

Lolol it not from God. It's invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830.

This is the “Rapture” in Latter-day Saint belief, that the righteous living will be caught up, and the graves of the righteous opened at the moment of Christ’s Second Coming. Therefore, there will have been no “Rapture” before then.

Adam Ondi Ahman Mormonism
Adam-ondi-Ahman in modern Missouri
This event is not the same as the Lord’s appearance on the Mt. of Olives wherein He saves the more righteous Jews from slaughter at the conclusion of the War of Armageddon. The Armageddon experience will precede the Second Coming. Also preceding the Second Coming will be at least two other appearances of Christ — the coming of Christ to His temple, and His conference at Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri (the site of the original Garden of Eden), where the prophets will turn the keys of their dispensations over to Adam, who will then give all the keys to Christ for His millennial reign on the earth.

Mormon Doctrine: The Rapture - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

www.mormonwiki.com

Joseph Smith, Darby and Schofield did not connect up. The Latter-day Doctrines of The LDS Church had already been laid and understood based on the Lord's teaching to Joseph Smith from 1820 to 1844. Darby and Schofiled hooked up in the states much latter to take Darby's doctrine and spread it through Schofield. Our doctrine of the events of the Latter Days is much different and does no align with Darby's. You have the right to judge the Church and Joseph Smith within the possible truth. But, not to conflict others into it and say he stole something. That is a flat out lie. Muslims do that.

 

[surada]

Joseph Smith, Darby and Schofield did not connect up. The Latter-day Doctrines of The LDS Church had already been laid and understood based on the Lord's teaching to Joseph Smith from 1820 to 1844. Darby and Schofiled hooked up in the states much latter to take Darby's doctrine and spread it through Schofield. Our doctrine of the events of the Latter Days is much different and does no align with Darby's. You have the right to judge the Church and Joseph Smith within the possible truth. But, not to conflict others into it and say he stole something. That is a flat out lie. Muslims do that.

Muslims are caught up in the same heresy.

 

[Cougarbear]

Muslims are caught up in the same heresy.

Latter-Day Saints aren’t. But we do know what prophecy is.

 

[surada]

Latter-Day Saints aren’t. But we do know what prophecy is.

Right. Like Jesus coming to America. Or non-existent Jewish tribes coming to America.

 

[Cougarbear]

Right. Like Jesus coming to America. Or non-existent Jewish tribes coming to America.

Nonexistent? You mean your idiotic idea that there is a tribe of Lehi. No there isn’t. Lehi was of the tribe of Joseph. And yes, the Lord said in the Bible “I have other sheep” I will go to visit. He did here in the Americas.

 

[ninja007]

the rapture is in the bible.

 

[ninja007]

preterism is a false teaching.

• Books
• Articles
• K.J.Ester Author
• Contact
• Privacy Policy

Site Search-->

​

Article by: Kenneth J. Ester

Problems with Preterism​

There are two types of Preterism. There is Full Preterism and there is Partial Preterism. Both are evil at its core.

Full Preterism is the belief that the entire Bible is nothing more than a history book. ALl Prophecies in the Bible have already been fulfilled.

Partial Preterism is the belief that most of it has been fulfilled but Jesus has not yet returned.

There are so many flaws with Preterism in general that it really amazes me that anyone can take it serious. When they cannot answer questions or problems with their beliefs, they do one of two things. They either completely ignore them and will not even acknowledge them, or they claim something is symbolic.

When it comes to God's word, the very last thing we should ever do is use symbolism to answer our questions. Do not get me wrong. There is plenty of symbolism in scripture, but we must always look at it logically first. It is God's word. We should always be looking to see things as literal as much as we can, without throwing logic away. Only if there is a logical reason to see something is symbolic should we see it as symbolic. To make it fit what we want to believe is never a logical reason to see something as symbolic.

What we cannot do is pick and choose at will what is symbolic. When we give mankind the right to choose when something is symbolic or not, we are essentially giving mankind artistic license to make God's word mean absolutely anything we wish it to mean. When that is acceptable, we literally have no possible way of knowing whose interpretation is correct and whose is wrong! At that point, we cannot even know if salvation is true! Maybe the whole crucifixion is symbolic? Maybe Jesus was not truly the Son of God and that was only symbolic as well. Do you see how dangerous it can be to give mankind artistic license with Gods word? I would argue that there is nothing more dangerous to Christianity than taking artistic license with God's word. Before we accept anything in scripture to be symbolic, we must have a logical reason to believe it is symbolic.

In Revelation, John describes Jesus as having hair as white as wool and eyes of fire and a sword for a tongue. We know for certain that Jesus did not have a two edged sword sticking out of His mouth. We know his eyes were not on fire. So we have a very logical reason to accept that description as symbolic.

So when someone gives scripture a symbolic understanding for no reason, you know that it is a very strong possibility they are pushing a false doctrine. That is the first box to check off against Preterism. When you get into debating with them, "if" you can get them to answer the problems with their beliefs, far too often they give symbolic explanations for scripture.

********

Something very close to Symbolism but is not quite the same is Spiritual Fulfillment. Too often Preterists will claim that one prophecy or another was fulfilled spiritually. If anyone, Preterist or not, ever tries to claim any prophecy was or will be fulfilled spiritually, do not listen to a word they say! It is logically impossible for an prophecy to be fulfilled spiritually.

The entire purpose of any prophecy is so that after it is fulfilled, whether immediately or sometime in the future, people will recognize the events that fulfilled the prophecy, thus proving that the one who gave the prophecy was truly of God, and that it was God who fulfilled them. God would never give a prophecy to anyone that will be fulfilled spiritually, because if He did, that prophecy would be completely useless. It would serve no purpose! Even worse. It would give mankind the artistic license to make it fulfilled however he wanted.

No prophecy from God can be fulfilled spiritually. If there is no event that can be pointed to in order to show how it was fulfilled, then that prophecy has not been fulfilled.

With that said, I would like to go to the other side of the coin sort of here.

Just because Prophecy does seem to have been fulfilled at one point, that does not mean it has to have been completely fulfilled. God will sometimes give a prophecy that is meant for far into the future, then have it seemingly be fulfilled soon after. Then far in the future it will be completely fulfilled.

The Bible tells us plainly that the way to know a false prophet is if everything they say does not happen. So if God gives a prophet words for thousands of years in the future, He will often make that prophecy seem to come true shortly after it is issued just so the people will recognize it as being fulfilled and know that prophet was truly of God. But then in the future at one point, it will be found that this prophecy was not completely fulfilled and that means it must still be fulfilled in the future.

It is the lack of understanding this that gave birth to Preterism in the first place.

I will not claim when Preterism was invented because I believe only a fool will claim they know when a belief system was invented. Typically they make these claims and point to times when that belief was simply made more popular or when it was rediscovered to be true. Only in certain situations like with Mormonism and Jehovah's witness can we look at history and know when it started, because they have their founders who even admitted to starting them.


At one point, someone was reading about Jesus telling the disciples that Jerusalem would be destroyed, and put that together with 70 AD when Jerusalem was actually destroyed. From there they just started thinking if that was already fulfilled, then everything in Matthew 24 must also be fulfilled. So they went through the chapter and used the ever so dangerous imagination of mankind to see how they can interpret it all to be fulfilled.

This stance came from man using his imagination and not truly from anyone studying Gods word. There are too many problems with Preterism for it to have come from good studying. WHich we will get into now....


********


When Revelation was written

Preterists claim the book was written around 65 AD. This allows 70 AD to be the Great Tribulation and the fulfillment of many prophecies. This also explains why John mentions the Temple being trampled underfoot. They will give all kinds of twisted stretched out theories that support the book being written then. The problem is that it is completely illogical to see Revelation being written in 65 AD instead of 90 AD.
There are two Roman leaders that come into play here. Nero who was emperor from 54 to 68 AD, would have been the emperor if Revelation was written in 65 AD as the Preterists argue. If Revelation was written in 95 AD, as most scholars agree, then Domitian would have been ruling at that time.
Nero was well documented as being quite a monster in his reign. He hated Christians and was known for having them killed as spectacles in the Coliseum. He was known to line the major roads to the Coliseum with the heads of Christians on spikes to build up excitement for the coming event. It is completely illogical and out of the normal to think that Nero would have caught John, one of, if not 'the' highest leader of Christianity at that time, and chose not to make a major spectacle of his death at the Coliseum. But instead to simply ban him to the island of Patmos. Nero was never known to ban any Christians to Patmos. He certainly wouldn't have done it with John.
Domitian however, did not have such a hatred for Christians. He was known to typically just have their belongings confiscated and then send them on their way. On occasion, when Domitian wanted to make an example of a Christian, he was known to ban them to the island of Patmos.
It is completely illogical to think Nero, who had a blood lust for Christians, would have John in custody and instead of having him killed in the Coliseum, he would choose to do something completely out of character and ban John to Patmos.
It is absolutely logical to see Domitian having an apostle in his possession and choosing to do what he was known to do with Christians he chose to make an example of, and ban him to the island of Patmos.
I dont care how much reasoning they give to show that Revelation could have been written in 65 AD, the obvious logic says it was written in 95 AD.


********


Who was the False Prophet?

It seems like a strange question to ask to prove an entire belief system wrong, but it does exactly that. The False Prophet in Revelation is a main character of the end times. He is the one who gives the antichrist much of his support. He calls fire from heaven in the presence of the antichrist to deceive many. He is the one behind the issuing of the mark of the beast. When the antichrist is caught and thrown into the lake of fire, the false prophet is there with him and thrown in with him.

Preterists claim to know who the antichrist is. They claim to know what the mark of the beast is. They have the advantage of hindsight and looking at historical events. How can they not know who the false prophet was? I seriously find it hard to believe that God's word would make the false prophet such a major factor in the end times and then when it happens, his part is so silent that history doesn't even reveal him. I dont buy that.

The only logical reason why they dont know who the False Prophet was, is because there is no person in history that fits. Which means they must be wrong on their belief on who the Beast was as well.


********


The Beast / Antichrist

Being the main character of the end times (Other than Christ Himself) it is essential that Preterists be able to name who the antichrist was. Depending on the preterist, there are a few different historic characters who could be the antichrist.

Nero - Many claim Nero was the beast of Revelation and they insist this mostly because using gematria with his name, it can be found to add up to 666. Nero committed suicide on June 9th of 68 AD.

Titus - Just searching in Google, I found this name coming up as one the Preterists believe was the antichrist. Titus died of a fever on September 13, 81 AD.

Now look at this scripture...

----------
Revelation 19:20
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone.
----------

God's own word plainly states that both, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire "alive". The fact that historically, we know exactly how and when both Nero and Titus died, we can rest assured they were not thrown into the Lake of Fire alive. Thus, neither one cannot possibly be the antichrist.


********


What was worse? 70 AD or the Holocaust?

Preterists claim that 70 AD was the Great Tribulation. This is the center of their entire belief.

In Matthew 24, Jesus claims that the Great Tribulation will be the worst this world has ever seen or ever will see again. When 70 AD happened, it most certainly would have seemed to fit that billing, so there were a few church fathers who wrote about it as the great tribulation.

Remember what I wrote about earlier? That sometimes a prophecy can seem to be fulfilled but then later in the future it will be realized it was not completely fulfilled? This is one of those cases. When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, it was the worst tribulation that has ever happened to the Jewish people. But then in the future, something happened. The Holocaust happened. A time of great tribulation upon the Jews that every futurist scholar as well as every non-religious scholar claims as the worst the Jews had ever faced. Even the Jews claim it was the worst ever. The 'only' ones who claim 70 AD was worse, are Preterists who have to make that claim or admit their entire belief system is wrong.

Jesus plainly said that the great tribulation will be the worst that has ever happened or ever will happen. That means that there can be nothing worse before or after it happened. The fact that everyone who is not Preterist claims the Holocaust was worse than 70 AD is very strong evidence that 70 AD could not possibly be the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24.

Now Preterists will even try to convince you of reasons why 70 AD was worse. So my question to them is not about why the Holocaust was worse. My question is "Why is it that 'only' Preterists believe 70 AD was worse?

If 70 AD was even possibly worse, one would expect that there would be many non-believing scholars who believe 70 AD was worse. But they dont. Only Preterists think 70 AD was worse.


********


Daniels 70th week

Preterists make the claim (at least the ones I have debated with have said this) that the 70th week begins with either Jesus being baptized, or Jesus starting to preach the coming of the kingdom of God. They say the Messiah was cut off at the middle of the week. They claim that when He is crucified, He confirms a covenant.

----------
Daniel 9:27 NASB (Partial)
27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week,...
----------


1) THis verse clearly puts the confirming of the covenant at the beginning of the week. Not the middle of the week.

2) The confirming of the covenant would be for one week. Which if you understand how Daniels 70 weeks prophecy works, is a total of 7 years. But they have the Messiah being cut off at the middle of the week (7 years) which would mean the 70th week is over 3.5 years after the crucifixion. But the destruction of Jerusalem does not happen until around 30 to 34 years later.


********


Where is Jesus today?

It doesn't take much studying of Eschatology to get a good picture of what happens.

Matt 24:29-30 --- Immediately after the Tribulation Jesus will return in the second coming.

Matt 25:31-34 --- There will be the judgment of the goats and sheep, which is the survivors of the tribulation fro every nation, and the sheep (believers) will be welcomed into His kingdom.

In Revelation 20 it continues...

Rev 20:4-6 --- They sit in thrones. The Christians who die during the Tribulation come to life. The rest of the dead do not come to life for 1,000 years. They will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

Rev 20:7 --- The devil will be released from his prison when the 1,000 years are completed to deceive the people.

Rev 20:10 --- The devil is thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:11-15 --- The day of judgment where the unsaved are brought from Hades and thrown into the lake of fire. This happens in heaven.

Rev 21:1-4 --- The old earth passes away and God gives us a new earth.

So here is what we have. Immediately after the Tribulation, Jesus returns in the second coming. He will hold a judgment day where those who survived the Tribulations will be gathered and the believers will enter His kingdom. The unbelievers are killed and thrown into the lake of fire. Then we will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The devil is thrown into an abyss during this 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years is completed, the devil is released for a short while and he deceives the people. God kills them with fire from heaven. Then we all go to heaven where we have the judgment of the unsaved. During which the old earth passes away and God gives us a new earth.

If 70 AD was the Great Tribulation, it would mean that Jesus returned in the first century. The judgment of the goats and sheep already happened. The devil is locked away for 1,000 years, which would have ended around 1100 AD. Then everyone would go to heaven for the judgment of the unsaved and this earth would pass away and God would give His children a new earth. Somewhere around 1100 AD. There would be no unbelievers on the new earth.

But here we are today, nearly 2,000 years later, and the world is filled with unbelievers.

According to Isaiah, the millennial kingdom will be a time of peace where the ox and lion eat grass side by side. Where lives are alot longer and a child who dies at the age of 100 years is thought to be accursed. When has this happened?

You can clearly see how according to scripture, all of this could not possibly have already happened.


********


2 Thessalonians 2 / Daniel 7 / The first Seal

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Paul teaches us that the day of the Lord, which is the day of Gods wrath, cannot happen unless the man of lawlessness (antichrist) is revealed first. In Daniel chapter 7, if you pay attention, you learn 'how' the antichrist is revealed.

The beast will start out as a kingdom with 10 horns which are ten kings. Today that would be a ten nation coalition where the ten leaders rule as a committee.

Then a "little horn" or "lesser leader" will rise up and kill three of the leaders. The other seven will give him all authority and power.

In the first Seal, you have the antichrist who is given a crown. Which is when the 7 surviving leaders give the antichrist control. Then he will go out conquering.

If this coalition was one like the UN or NATO, it would simply break the coalition up and leave the antichrist with no power. The only way he would possibly be able to go out and conquer, is if this coalition is one like Emmanuel Macron, the president of France has been trying to create for years. A coalition where ten nations literally merge their militaries into one army to create the most powerful army in the world.

When did all of this happen in the past? When did ten nations unite their military to create one powerful army, and a prince or a vice-president rose up and killed three of the leaders and took control and went out conquering? Neither Titus or Nero rose to power in this way.


********


Romans 11:25-27 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” 27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”


When was all of Israel saved?

What was the fullness of the gentiles?

This was supposed to happen when He takes away their sins. So it must have happened either at the crucifixion or when all Jews accepted Christ.

Its been almost 2,000 years since the crucifixion and even today there are many Jews in Israel who are dying as sinners and going to hell. Clearly all of Israel has never been saved yet.


********


Who were the Two Witnesses?
When and how did the antichrist kill them?
When did the bodies of the two witnesses lay untouched and dead in one street for 3 days before coming back to life?


********
********


Some preterist will at least put the effort into answering one or two of these. At the most three of them. With more than a dozen questions or problems put forth, answering even half of them simply is not enough. That would leave at least still half a dozen issues that go unanswered.

Again, Preterism isn't like Futurism where we are trying to put together what will happen before it happens. Preterism says it all already happened. They should be able to answer all of the issues cleanly. But they will not. Why? Because they dont have the answers. Because their stance has legitimate holes that cannot be answered!

That means it is false!

As a futurist, I should have a much harder time fitting all of Gods word together neatly. Especially if Futurism is false as they claim. It should be impossible for me to make it all fit neatly. Yet I can. As a Pre-Tribulation believer, I can answer any problems someone has with my beliefs. If PReterism is correct, why cant they even come close to doing the same?

Preterism is a dangerous stance to take. The only way they answer many of their problems is by looking to symbolic explanations and I already addressed how bad that is. If you can pick and choose when to interpret scripture symbolically, no one can even be certain that salvation is real anymore. You simply cannot go that direction with God's word!


Anyone who will completely sell out to any stance that has so many unanswered flaws is someone who simply does not care about the truth. For if the truth really mattered to them, they would only believe if they could answer the problems.

 

[ninja007]

Preterism! I Can’t Believe It​

Published on: July 19, 2016 by RR2 Category:Pretribulation Rapture, Todd Strandberg

One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I’m amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.
What is preterism? This theory argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. According to preterism, events like the rise of the Antichrist, the tribulation, the rapture, and the Day of the Lord all took place around 70 AD, the year the Romans invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the second Temple.
I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. As in many cases, pride is one of the most common reasons people begin following doctrinal error. They believe that they are part of a special group that has discovered a hidden truth. Never mind the fact that millions of people have joined them in supporting their folly.
Up until now, I’ve largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. Well, I can’t stand by and watch error run free, so it looks like I’m going to have to add preterism to the list of erroneous rapture views that I need to actively refute.
The heart of this error is based on Jesus’ statement that “this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled” (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.
In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China’s 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?
The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status? When did all the Jews shout, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,” as Jesus said they would?
After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the “resurrection” happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.
Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the “New Israel.” They teach that the “old earth,” which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, and the “elements,” which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the “elements of the law.”
Preterism produces some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity.

 

[surada]

Nonexistent? You mean your idiotic idea that there is a tribe of Lehi. No there isn’t. Lehi was of the tribe of Joseph. And yes, the Lord said in the Bible “I have other sheep” I will go to visit. He did here in the Americas.

I was referring to your Lamites and Nephites.

 

[Cougarbear]

I was referring to your Lamites and Nephites.

You can’t get your stories straight. Your credibility continues to diminish

 

[surada]

You can’t get your stories straight. Your credibility continues to diminish

Lol . It's not my story.