IDF begins evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah northward

[Coyote]

There is a real difference between: Hamas must be eliminated even though there are known and unfortunate consequences in pursuing that just goal.

and: An entire people must be eliminated by the nature of their just being.

Acknowledging the consequences of war is not the same as intentional genocide.

I am speaking of genocide as a general concept, not in this particular conflict, but I don’t agree with what you are saying. The person I responded to stated “Hamas must be destroyed, to hell with the consequences”. That says to me it doesn’t matter how many innocent people are killed in the process, the end justifies the means. At that point, imo, the cause no longer can be called just.

At some point, the line between “consequences of war” and “genocide” can get erased. It has been used to justify a conflict that results in genocide even if genocide was not the original intent.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The claims that the majority of Palestinians supported the Oct 7 attack come from polls. The same polls also note that they do not believe Hamas actually commited those atrocities.

That is factual. If you are using a poll to make your case against an entire people, don’t cherry pick.

That is simply not true, which is why you are unable to produce a link to a poll that states the vast majority of Palestinians don't believe Hamas committed atrocities. Perhaps in the first few weeks after the attacks, some Palestinians doubted the extent of the atrocities committed by Hamas, but that is no longer true, and they overwhelmingly support the attack knowing full well what was done.

Here is a link to the Palestinians' own poll and it does not support your claim.

Press Release: Public Opinion Poll No (91) | PCPSR

www.pcpsr.org

For the last 100 years, the Palestinians have been the aggressors, and the fact that they have suffered more from their aggressions than Israelis/Jews have does not make them innocent victims, and throughout this period Palestinian terrorists have targeted women, children and the elderly so to claim they couldn't believe Hamas would have done so is just a flat out lie.

 

[AMart]

The IDF has begun evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah to a new expanded humanitarian zone which includes al-Mawasi and parts of Khan Yunis and central Gaza, the IDF announced on Monday morning. The evacuation comes ahead of planned IDF operations in the Rafah area.

The new humanitarian zone includes field hospitals, tents, and increased provisions of food, water, medicine, and other supplies.

Additionally, the IDF is working in cooperation with international organizations and several countries to allow an increase of humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip.

The IDF, in accordance with a decision made by the political echelon, is calling on the population currently under Hamas control to evacuate temporarily from the eastern neighborhoods of Rafah to the new zone. The evacuation will be conducted in a phased manner in accordance with continuing situation assessments.

The call to evacuate is being made through leaflets, text messages, phone calls, and statements in Arabic.

"The IDF will continue to operate in order to realize the goals of the war, including the dismantling of Hamas and the return of all the hostages," said the IDF.

Shortly after the IDF announcement, Palestinian media reported that the IDF began dropping leaflets over Rafah informing civilians about the evacuation. The leaflets warned that Gaza City is still off limits and considered a "dangerous combat zone" and that it is "forbidden to approach the eastern and southern security fence."

The leaflets, published by the IDF as well, noted that the IDF would act with "extreme force" against terrorist organizations in the areas under the evacuation order. "Anyone who is near terrorist organizations puts his life and the life of his family at risk," warned the leaflets.

IDF begins evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah northward

The new humanitarian zone includes field hospitals, tents, and increased provisions of food, water, medicine, and other supplies.

www.jpost.com

In hindsight, this should have been done in 2008.

It seems Israel has been bombing the area. Maybe don't do that.
The Israel-Hamas war went from a potential short-term ceasefire to strikes on Rafah on Monday.
Israel has begun an aerial and ground offensive in Rafah, the largest city in Gaza that has remained outside of Israel’s direct operational control.

While Israel and the US are claiming it is a limited operation, it’s nevertheless raising fears that the long-threatened, full-scale offensive into the city that houses over 1.4 million displaced Palestinians could be imminent.

Israel’s Rafah operation, explained

The Israel-Hamas war went from a potential short-term ceasefire to strikes on Rafah on Monday.

www.vox.com

 

[Coyote]

That is simply not true, which is why you are unable to produce a link to a poll that states the vast majority of Palestinians don't believe Hamas committed atrocities. Perhaps in the first few weeks after the attacks, some Palestinians doubted the extent of the atrocities committed by Hamas, but that is no longer true, and they overwhelmingly support the attack knowing full well what was done.

Here is a link to the Palestinians' own poll and it does not support your claim.

Press Release: Public Opinion Poll No (91) | PCPSR

www.pcpsr.org

For the last 100 years, the Palestinians have been the aggressors, and the fact that they have suffered more from their aggressions than Israelis/Jews have does not make them innocent victims, and throughout this period Palestinian terrorists have targeted women, children and the elderly so to claim they couldn't believe Hamas would have done so is just a flat out lie.

From that link:

While support for Hamas’ offensive on October the 7th remains as high as it was three months ago, Palestinian support in the West Bank has in fact dropped by 11 points while, surprisingly, support in the Gaza Strip has increased by 14 points. It is clear from the findings however, that support for the offensive does not mean support for Hamas. Instead, the findings show that three quarters of the Palestinians believe that the offensive has put the Palestinian-Israeli issue at the center of attention after years of neglect at the regional and international levels.

As we have found in the previous poll, almost all Palestinians think Israel is committing war crimes while almost all believe Hamas is not committing war crimes in the current war. Moreover, more than 90% believe that Hamas did not commit any atrocities against Israel civilians during its October the 7thoffensive. Only one in five Palestinians has seen videos showing atrocities committed by Hamas. Only one fifth of those who did not see the videos had access to such videos but decided not to see them; the rest report that the media they watched did not show these videos. The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7.

 

[Kondor3]

And that is how genocide gets justified,

There is no genocide in Gaza...

If there were the Israelis would not be warning civilians days or weeks in advance...

If there were the Israelis would be undertaking saturation bombing of populated areas with high explosives and napalm...

No such thing is happening...

Accusations of genocide leveled against the Israelis are pure bull$hit and you give aid-and-comfort to Hamas by saying so...

This is a declared war...

Against an enemy that hides behind the skirts of its women and children like the craven cowards that they are...

Embedding military assets amongst hospitals and schools and mosques and refugee relief centers and so on...

Hamas cadre are vipers that must be wiped from the face of the earth...

Insofar as Gazan civilians stay out of the way of the IDF in this righteous mission they will survive...

That is not genocide...

If you cannot stay the course with our very good friend and ally Israel then come out openly in favor of Hamas...

The choice is yours...

No more pu$$yfooting-around... no more half-measures... no stopping-short again only to have to rinse-and-repeat later...

Death to Hamas...

Go Team Israel.

 

[toomuchtime_]

From that link:

While support for Hamas’ offensive on October the 7th remains as high as it was three months ago, Palestinian support in the West Bank has in fact dropped by 11 points while, surprisingly, support in the Gaza Strip has increased by 14 points. It is clear from the findings however, that support for the offensive does not mean support for Hamas. Instead, the findings show that three quarters of the Palestinians believe that the offensive has put the Palestinian-Israeli issue at the center of attention after years of neglect at the regional and international levels.

As we have found in the previous poll, almost all Palestinians think Israel is committing war crimes while almost all believe Hamas is not committing war crimes in the current war. Moreover, more than 90% believe that Hamas did not commit any atrocities against Israel civilians during its October the 7thoffensive. Only one in five Palestinians has seen videos showing atrocities committed by Hamas. Only one fifth of those who did not see the videos had access to such videos but decided not to see them; the rest report that the media they watched did not show these videos. The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7.

It is hard to know what a Palestinian would consider an atrocity since in both intifadas they attacked school buses and bombed family restaurants, and the terrorists who did these things became culture heroes, and there were no objections to taking women, children and the elderly as hostages, so there is no reason to believe knowing the full extent of the atrocities committed by Hamas would lessen their overwhelming support for the Oct 7 attack. The fact remains that nearly 3/4 of the Palestinians support the Oct 7 attacks and that means they are not innocent victims but supporters of Hamas' endless war against Israel.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

What has he done illegal, never mind that he has a soul of a traitor.

 

[Shusha]

...I do not think knowing Hamas targeted civilians would change anything, because as far as they are concerned there is no real difference between civilians and non-civilians in Israel...The atrocities commitTed on innocent people on Oct 7 were far greater than “targeting civilians”

Yes. But do you see how these two beliefs stretch things away from a morally humanitarian position? Civilians aren't really civilians, they are just some form of combatants AND it isn't a war crime or a crime against humanity unless atrocities are committed.

One of the double standards is that Israelis are seen as combatants simply because they reside in Israel (not even in some version of "Palestine", but in Israel). Even the most ardent of the "to hell with the consequences" crowd assigns some sort of responsibility to the people of Gaza as in: yeah, I know there are tunnels under my house; yeah, my kid's bedroom has RPGs hidden under the mattress; yeah, I made dinner for a civilian hostage for 212 days; yeah, rockets are shot from my kid's kindergarten.

There is no moral equivalency between just living in a place and participating in, or even having awareness of, the means of violence directed at another people.

 

[Shusha]

At some point, the line between “consequences of war” and “genocide” can get erased. It has been used to justify a conflict that results in genocide even if genocide was not the original intent.

The definition of "genocide" includes the intent. You can't commit genocide on accident. My very concern is that words are getting so squishy that war=genocide. I reject that redefining.

 

[rylah]

I am speaking of genocide as a general concept, not in this particular conflict, but I don’t agree with what you are saying. The person I responded to stated “Hamas must be destroyed, to hell with the consequences”. That says to me it doesn’t matter how many innocent people are killed in the process, the end justifies the means. At that point, imo, the cause no longer can be called just.

At some point, the line between “consequences of war” and “genocide” can get erased. It has been used to justify a conflict that results in genocide even if genocide was not the original intent.

Trying to look sophisticated?

I remember you posting a napkin -
in response the Swastika flags in Gaza.

 

[Lisa558]

The definition of "genocide" includes the intent. You can't commit genocide on accident. My very concern is that words are getting so squishy that war=genocide. I reject that redefining.

War = genocide only when the Jews are fighting back. I haven’t heard any posters accusing Ukraine of genocide. In fact, I haven’t even heard Russia being accused of genocide.

 

[Lisa558]

I am speaking of genocide as a general concept, not in this particular conflict, but I don’t agree with what you are saying. The person I responded to stated “Hamas must be destroyed, to hell with the consequences”. That says to me it doesn’t matter how many innocent people are killed in the process, the end justifies the means. At that point, imo, the cause no longer can be called just.

At some point, the line between “consequences of war” and “genocide” can get erased. It has been used to justify a conflict that results in genocide even if genocide was not the original intent.

Let’s keep in mind that more than 99% of Gazans remain alive, and that is because Israel launched a ground offensive and not a massive bombing campaign. It is NO WHERE NEAR a genocide, and people who use that word are advancing antisemitism.

Let’s say that despite Israel’s efforts to avoid civilian casualties to the extent possible - evacuating tsrget areas, for example, which of course is the polar opposite of what the Muslim terrorists did - another 0.5% are killed. That still leaves 98.5% of Gazans alive, and the question is “what do we do with these people, who hate Jews?”

Option 1: The best solution, IMO, is for Egypt to take them. They were originally Egyptians - as that area was part of Egypt when they attacked in 1967 - and this way they would be living amongst fellow Muslims and not adjacent to Israel they want to destroy. I would like Biden to pressure Egypt - we give foreign money to them, too, you know - to take them.

Option 2: The next choice would be for them to remain in Gaza, but not left on their own. Israel should build a large wall, and have the IDF guard it 24/7. In addition, there should be military housing on the GAZA side of the wall, with armed soldiers.

 

[Coyote]

War = genocide only when the Jews are fighting back. I haven’t heard any posters accusing Ukraine of genocide. In fact, I haven’t even heard Russia being accused of genocide.

Nope. A lot of conflicts have been accused of being genocide or have turned into genocide and they haven’t involved Jews.

You are wrong about no one saying it about Russia, (not surprising since you have ignored that conflict other than to make the weird an unsubstantiated claim that there are mass graves of Russians in Ukraine and now to imply Ukraine is conducting genocide). At some point “fighting back” becomes retribution and imi, laying waste to much of Gaza, both urban and farmland, strikes me as retribution. Israel can be critiqued for how it is handling its war just like any country including ourselves (and we were).

 

[Lisa558]

Nope. A lot of conflicts have been accused of being genocide or have turned into genocide and they haven’t involved Jews.

You are wrong about no one saying it about Russia, (not surprising since you have ignored that conflict other than to make the weird an unsubstantiated claim that there are mass graves of Russians in Ukraine and now to imply Ukraine is conducting genocide). At some point “fighting back” becomes retribution and imi, laying waste to much of Gaza, both urban and farmland, strikes me as retribution. Israel can be critiqued for how it is handling its war just like any country including ourselves (and we were).

They can be critiqued, but a double standard applied to Israel is indicative of antisemitism. What other country has been falsely accused of genocide?

And, I wasn’t implying Ukraine is conducting genocide. I was saying how nobody is accusing them of it, and rightfully so, but they are accusing Israel. The difference is: Jews are involved with the latter.

The bias against Jews is obvious.

 

[Coyote]

Yes. But do you see how these two beliefs stretch things away from a morally humanitarian position? Civilians aren't really civilians, they are just some form of combatants AND it isn't a war crime or a crime against humanity unless atrocities are committed.

I think I see your point…but I’m not sure how you are applying it.

Viewing or acting on civilians as combatants is not a morally humanitarian position - I agree. Hamas has systemically done this. Although is also something that even Israel can be accused of (look at the rhetoric).

But the issue of war crimes is not clear. Targeting civilians IS a war crime but there are degrees: that lack clarity is evident in arguments about whether Israel committed war crimes for example. Also, from a moral position, we do not view simple targeting civilians in the same way as raping/torturing/burning alive or attacks on children even though they are both reprehensible.

That said, I think about this.

One of the double standards is that Israelis are seen as combatants simply because they reside in Israel (not even in some version of "Palestine", but in Israel). Even the most ardent of the "to hell with the consequences" crowd assigns some sort of responsibility to the people of Gaza as in: yeah, I know there are tunnels under my house; yeah, my kid's bedroom has RPGs hidden under the mattress; yeah, I made dinner for a civilian hostage for 212 days; yeah, rockets are shot from my kid's kindergarten.


There is no moral equivalency between just living in a place and participating in, or even having awareness of, the means of violence directed at another people.

I disagree. Being aware of something does not mean you can do anything about it or are responsible for it. Does not suddenly make you a fair target or a militant. As Americans, we are all aware of what out country did with Gitmo or to go further back, some of tbe atrocities in Vietnam. What does that make us?

 

[Coyote]

They can be critiqued, but a double standard applied to Israel is indicative of antisemitism. What other country has been falsely accused of genocide?

Many. Most accusations of genocide are not.

And, I wasn’t implying Ukraine is conducting genocide. I was saying how nobody is accusing them of it, and rightfully so, but they are accusing Israel. The difference is: Jews are involved with the latter.

The bias against Jews is obvious.

Well…you several referred to mass graves or genocide by the Ukrainians.

 

[Lisa558]

Many. Most accusations of genocide are not.


Well…you several referred to mass graves or genocide by the Ukrainians.

No I didn’t. That’s just you bias having you misinterpret what I said. I pointed out that nobody levels false accusations of genocide - like Ukraine or Russia - but they do of Israel.

I don’t recall “mass graves” - but of course I must have pointed out that thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have been killed in conflict as well.

The fact remains that Israel is condemned when others doing the same are not. Reason: bias against Jews.

 

[justoffal]

The IDF has begun evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah to a new expanded humanitarian zone which includes al-Mawasi and parts of Khan Yunis and central Gaza, the IDF announced on Monday morning. The evacuation comes ahead of planned IDF operations in the Rafah area.

The new humanitarian zone includes field hospitals, tents, and increased provisions of food, water, medicine, and other supplies.

Additionally, the IDF is working in cooperation with international organizations and several countries to allow an increase of humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip.

The IDF, in accordance with a decision made by the political echelon, is calling on the population currently under Hamas control to evacuate temporarily from the eastern neighborhoods of Rafah to the new zone. The evacuation will be conducted in a phased manner in accordance with continuing situation assessments.

The call to evacuate is being made through leaflets, text messages, phone calls, and statements in Arabic.

"The IDF will continue to operate in order to realize the goals of the war, including the dismantling of Hamas and the return of all the hostages," said the IDF.

Shortly after the IDF announcement, Palestinian media reported that the IDF began dropping leaflets over Rafah informing civilians about the evacuation. The leaflets warned that Gaza City is still off limits and considered a "dangerous combat zone" and that it is "forbidden to approach the eastern and southern security fence."

The leaflets, published by the IDF as well, noted that the IDF would act with "extreme force" against terrorist organizations in the areas under the evacuation order. "Anyone who is near terrorist organizations puts his life and the life of his family at risk," warned the leaflets.

IDF begins evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah northward

The new humanitarian zone includes field hospitals, tents, and increased provisions of food, water, medicine, and other supplies.

www.jpost.com

In hindsight, this should have been done in 2008.

And now all the monsters will come forth from the closets and drop their masks. Now we will discover that here in America there are elected officials that want Hamas to stay in power even as they see Israel moving in for the kill. Once the civilians have been safely evacuated there will no longer be anything to hide behind. Yes even our own elected officials have been using human shields for their own political advantage.

 

[Lisa558]

And now all the monsters will come forth from the closets and drop their masks. Now we will discover that here in America there are elected officials that want Hamas to stay in power even as they see Israel moving in for the kill. Once the civilians have been safely evacuated there will no longer be anything to hide behind. Yes even our own elected officials have been using human shields for their own political advantage.

Is this what Obama meant by the “transformation” he threatened us with?

 

[justoffal]

Is this what Obama meant by the “transformation” he threatened us with?

Sure.... absolutely.... I strongly believe that was part of it, Yes.