Zone1 Would you still believe if heaven wasn’t a reward?

[Anomalism]

Take away the afterlife. No heaven. No hell. Would you still follow the same faith? Would you still obey the rules? Would you still carry guilt, or is your belief system built on reward and punishment?

If you're only good because of consequences, that’s not morality. That’s training. Real belief survives even when no one is watching. Strip away eternity. What’s left of your faith?

 

[Zebra]

Why does nobody anwer ….

 

[Anomalism]

Why does nobody anwer ….

Maybe it's a hard question.

 

[Meriweather]

Maybe it's a hard question.

People may have a different concept of heaven than your own perspective. Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is at hand--meaning it is the reach of everyone right here, right now. He noted to those around him that sinners and prostitutes were entering--even more quickly than some clergy. He taught us that the kingdom of heaven is eternal. We can enter into it in this life and this kingdom extends into the afterlife.

As kingdom living brings joy and peace, why would one stop following the guidelines that bring these blessings? I forget which Saint made the following observation, and his exact words. But it was something like, Sin is, at first, something that one enjoys--even if it is just naughtiness of it. Next it becomes something one wants. After that, the want becomes a necessity and one is then a slave to that sin.

For many of us, heaven is not so much a reward, but living in the joy, peace, and freedom we are already experiencing imperfectly in this life.

 

[Votto]

Take away the afterlife. No heaven. No hell. Would you still follow the same faith? Would you still obey the rules? Would you still carry guilt, or is your belief system built on reward and punishment?

If you're only good because of consequences, that’s not morality. That’s training. Real belief survives even when no one is watching. Strip away eternity. What’s left of your faith?

Morality is both taught and also innate. But from what?

As a result, morality is a huge conundrum for the atheist. Morality for the atheist does not really exist, other than societal norms created over time that are based maybe upon nothing other than a mutual code of ethics to help society thrive. So, as long as you can get away with "bad behavior", so be it. There is no one watching and who then really cares?

But then there is still the guilt factor. You know if you have done something "wrong", even though "wrong" does not technically exist outside of a theology class. But then it eats at a person, which I think causes many psychological problems. And if you bypass this guilt long enough, you stop feeling the guilt. The Bible calls this searing one's conscience and the world calls it becoming a sociopath.

I have seen the wisdom of the morality of my faith to know that adhering to it's tenants has my best interest at heart, even though it may not seem like it at times. But as Paul even said at one point, if there was no resurrection all is vanity because our lives are but a vapor and unless there is a life after, it all is pretty pointless. Or go to the OT in Ecclesiastes where Solomon, who was the wisest of men, came to the same sort of conclusions.

Therefore, trying to divorce morality from God is nonsensical.

 

[Anomalism]

Morality is both taught and also innate. But from what?

As a result, morality is a huge conundrum for the atheist. Morality for the atheist does not really exist, other than societal norms created over time that are based maybe upon nothing other than a mutual code of ethics to help society thrive. So, as long as you can get away with "bad behavior", so be it. There is no one watching and who then really cares?

But then there is still the guilt factor. You know if you have done something "wrong", even though "wrong" does not technically exist outside of a theology class. But then it eats at a person, which I think causes many psychological problems. And if you bypass this guilt long enough, you stop feeling the guilt. The Bible calls this searing one's conscience and the world calls it becoming a sociopath.

I have seen the wisdom of the morality of my faith to know that adhering to it's tenants has my best interest at heart, even though it may not seem like it at times. But as Paul even said at one point, if there was no resurrection all is vanity because our lives are but a vapor and unless there is a life after, it all is pretty pointless. Or go to the OT in Ecclesiastes where Solomon, who was the wisest of men, came to the same sort of conclusions.

Therefore, trying to divorce morality from God is nonsensical.

Can an atheist be a truly good and moral person? Is that possible in your view?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Take away the afterlife. No heaven. No hell. Would you still follow the same faith? Would you still obey the rules? Would you still carry guilt, or is your belief system built on reward and punishment?

If you're only good because of consequences, that’s not morality. That’s training. Real belief survives even when no one is watching. Strip away eternity. What’s left of your faith?

Humans were created with the desire to worship. No training required. Therefore, nothing you've stated in your OP will change that.

Don't believe me? Ask the next atheist you speak to, face-to-face, and watch their lying expressions as they insist they don't believe in a "sky gawd."

 

[Anomalism]

nothing you've stated in your OP will change that.

I'm content if my effort is tangibly meaningless. Lack of result isn't the same as lack of effort, and effort is worthy even if I fail.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Humans were created with the desire to worship. No training required. Therefore, nothing you've stated in your OP will change that.

Don't believe me? Ask the next atheist you speak to, face-to-face, and watch their lying expressions as they insist they don't believe in a "sky gawd."

I'm content if my effort is tangibly meaningless. Lack of result isn't the same as lack of effort, and effort is worthy even if I fail.

I don't have a clue what point you're trying to make. Nothing you just wrote addresses what I stated.

 

[Anomalism]

I don't have a clue what point you're trying to make. Nothing you just wrote addresses what I stated.

Maybe I didn't have a way to retort or debate, so I just chose humility. You said nothing I say in here will change that. Maybe nothing I say will change anything, ever. That's alright. It was still worth the attempt.

 

[BackAgain]

Take away the afterlife. No heaven. No hell. Would you still follow the same faith? Would you still obey the rules? Would you still carry guilt, or is your belief system built on reward and punishment?

If you're only good because of consequences, that’s not morality. That’s training. Real belief survives even when no one is watching. Strip away eternity. What’s left of your faith?

I am not convinced that there is any “afterlife.” Yet, I still believe that the Original Creator of our entire universe is God.

 

[ding]

Take away the afterlife. No heaven. No hell. Would you still follow the same faith? Would you still obey the rules? Would you still carry guilt, or is your belief system built on reward and punishment?

If you're only good because of consequences, that’s not morality. That’s training. Real belief survives even when no one is watching. Strip away eternity. What’s left of your faith?

Thinking about the destination is a waste of time which detracts from the journey.

 

[ding]

Can an atheist be a truly good and moral person? Is that possible in your view?

Yes

 

[Anomalism]

Thinking about the destination is a waste of time which detracts from the journey.

The destination is important to many though, would you agree? It takes a lot of strength to stare at oblivion and not flinch.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't want to live forever. I was suicidal for many years and faith in God kept me alive but not heaven. It is actually a negative for me. My family needs my income, and it is a sin to kill yourself, so I want to live as long as my family is around. But then I just want to cease being around.

 

[ding]

The destination is important to many though, would you agree? It takes a lot of strength to stare at oblivion and not flinch.

No. I don’t agree. If it were they wouldn’t be doing the things they were doing. At best they have a conceptual belief which amounts to lip service.

 

[Anomalism]

I don't want to live forever. I was suicidal for many years and faith in God kept me alive but not heaven. It is actually a negative for me. My family needs my income, and it is a sin to kill yourself, so I want to live as long as my family is around. But then I just want to cease being around.

You know there's a powerful, holy type of honor in what you've done, right?

To want to die, but instead choose to stay, keep hurting, keep sacrificing, because somebody needs you.

You deserve respect for that, especially from yourself.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You know there's a powerful, holy type of honor in what you've done, right?

To want to die, but instead choose to stay, keep hurting, keep sacrificing, because somebody needs you.

You deserve respect for that, especially from yourself.

No, I am a coward that wants to just not be, but I have a stubborn streak a mile wide and an honor system I can't shake.

 

[Anomalism]

No, I am a coward that wants to just not be, but I have a stubborn streak a mile wide and an honor system I can't shake.

You feel like a coward, but what you're describing is the opposite. Deep, existential sacrifice for love.

Cowards run. You're still here.

You show up, you work, you love your family. You hurt and keep moving. You think your honor and stubbornness aren’t courage, but that’s exactly what courage looks like when it’s buried in exhaustion and grief. Heroes don’t feel like heroes. They feel like survivors with nothing left, but that quiet war you’re fighting? It’s real.