Would you inform on a benefits cheat?

[Shogun]

You can NOT have them put in a driveway, since you need a building permit for that. You can have them cut your grass.

You can have them put wallpaper up in your kitchen. You can NOT have them expand a room, since that requires a building permit.

Well, you can.. But you'd get fucked in more ways than one.

Why are you fighting the right/wrong of this so hard?

because she's a cheap ass who wants really bad to validate using illegal labor to save a few bucks. What she's trying to do is illegal as hell according to current labor laws but, hey, Ravi doesn't believe it so...

 

[Shogun]

Long days at work. The honor of you commenting on one of my threads. The thrill of proving Shog and Mani wrong in one fell swoop.

btw, my driveway is gravel so I'm almost sure I wouldn't need a permit to replace the gravel. lol

You haven't proven anything beyond your own blatant ignorance of labor laws. Again, IM not the one bouncing back and forth between definitions each time I am schooled by the shogun.

But, again, feel free to flaunt the laws like Wal Mart.. Im sure a judge will believe your word over legal statutes.

 

[Shogun]

You can't be getting much work done if you're on here 18 out of 24 hours in any given day. Can't have much of a life, either, I'd imagine.

I don't see where you've proven either of them wrong, however.. Instead, you've made yourself look very unethical.

Oh, and it's not your thread, either.. It's Roomy's.

 

[Shogun]

You'd be surprised at how much work I get done while posting here.

This is all hypothetical so if I look unethical, I don't really care.

It's really quite simple. They claim it's illegal for a homeowner to hire an illegal for a one-time job. As far as I can tell, it isn't. Otherwise we'd all have to get an I9 from everyone that ever does anything to our houses or yards.

Have a nice evening.

when the "one time job" is building your driveway.. shit, ANY major housework is a "one time" deal too then, eh? What, do you sign up for 3 roof jobs at one occasion too?


yea, i guess it IS quite simple to someone who doesn't comprehend what the hell they are talking about.

 

[Anguille]

because she's a cheap ass .....

Well, maybe she should have the Irish Travelers do it instead. Do you think they'll do a better job? At least they are citizens.

 

[Anguille]

Oh, and it's not your thread, either.. It's Roomy's.

Actually this thread is pwned by USMB.

 

[Ravi]

when the "one time job" is building your driveway.. shit, ANY major housework is a "one time" deal too then, eh? What, do you sign up for 3 roof jobs at one occasion too?


yea, i guess it IS quite simple to someone who doesn't comprehend what the hell they are talking about.

Yes, any major house work is a one time job. You do realize that a roof only needs to be replaced every ten to twenty years, don't you?

Your ignorance on what the IRS considers an employee and a contractor boggles my mind.

And yes, any work done on the house is considered domestic work, doofus.

Have you at least come down from your buzz and realized that you don't need tools to be a subcontractor?

The law on hiring illegals:

This law applies to organizations of any size and of any number of
employees. It is applicable to part-time employees and includes domestic
help and farm laborers. The only exception is for the employee
classification of "casual" hire where a true employer/employee
relationship does not exist.

Immigration Law Compliance 4/2/94

From your very own link:

These requirements apply to all employers, including:<o></o>
1. Agricultural associations, agricultural employers or farm<o></o>
labor contractors who employ, recruit or refer people for a<o></o>
fee; and<o></o>
2. Those who employ anyone for domestic work in their<o></o>
private home on a regular basis (such as every week).

The contrary being someone you don't employ on a regular basis. I know this is probably throwing you for a loop since it's from an Employer's Handbook.

And again, from the IRS website:

Workers who are not your employees
If only the worker can control how the work is done, the worker is not your employee but is self-employed. A self-employed worker usually provides his or her own tools and offers services to the general public in an independent business.

In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered.
Common Law Rules
Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

1. Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
2. Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)
3. Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

 

[Ravi]

oh, and THE KID DOWN THE STREET IS A LEGAL CITIZEN.

How do you know, because he looks white?

 

[Ravi]

You haven't proven anything beyond your own blatant ignorance of labor laws. Again, IM not the one bouncing back and forth between definitions each time I am schooled by the shogun.

But, again, feel free to flaunt the laws like Wal Mart.. Im sure a judge will believe your word over legal statutes.

I read the Walmart case. Apparently they did know that the subcontractor was employing illegals and that's why they got slapped.

 

[Shogun]

Well, maybe she should have the Irish Travelers do it instead. Do you think they'll do a better job? At least they are citizens.

Hey, if they are citizens they would be legal.

 

[manifold]

I don't even think that's true. I could stop by Home Depot and hire some non-illegals or illegals, and as long as they don't fit the IRS criteria of "employee" then I am not obligated to determine their immigrant status from a homeowner's standpoint. Same thing with the kid down the street that wants to make a few bucks painting my house. I don't need to determine his immigrant status. As a business, more than likely.

But please, show me what leads you to believe this.

From what Shog posted:



That seems clear to me.

Seems clear to me too. If you hired a few day laborers from outside of Home Depot, they WOULD meet the IRS criteria of "employee." And not filing the appropriate paperwork, as well as paying them "under the table" would be breaking the law. I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise.

If on the other had, you see an ad on a bulletin board for Jose's Landscaping, and contract them to mow your lawn (using their equipment), I'm pretty sure you are protected even if the proprietor himself is illegal.

 

[Shogun]

Yes, any major house work is a one time job. You do realize that a roof only needs to be replaced every ten to twenty years, don't you?

Which, invalidates your theory that a driveway, roof etc are in any way similar to mowing the grass. Face it, i have you cornered on this one, Ravi.


Your ignorance on what the IRS considers an employee and a contractor boggles my mind.


HA! yea, play that same hand with the judge at your arraignment.


And yes, any work done on the house is considered domestic work, doofus.

You are wrong. plain and simple. Domestic work isn't a matter of ANYTHING that is done to your home, Ravi. You can't have a group of illegals building your house and then claim that it was just a one time domestic job. But, please, believe that so you'll be all that much more shocked when the judge corrects your misgivings about labor laws.


Have you at least come down from your buzz and realized that you don't need tools to be a subcontractor?

IM not the one insisting that personal tools make a group of illegals a LEGAL CONTRACTORS, Ravi. That was exactly the point I was driving hope when making fun of you for thinking that illegals with their own socket wrench is a legal contractor. Keep up, yo.



The law on hiring illegals:
Immigration Law Compliance 4/2/94
From your very own link:
The contrary being someone you don't employ on a regular basis. I know this is probably throwing you for a loop since it's from an Employer's Handbook.

The definitions are clear, Rav.. It's YOUR erroneous application that is the crux of your mistake here. You would call any group of illegals a "contractor" when they are not. You would call building a driveway DOMESTIC and it is not. You HOPE that being purposfully ignorant about the status of the illegals in YOUR EMPLOY will keep your hands clean but, by your own tenacious effort to rationalize illegal labor, it wont.

sorry, charlie.. you are still wrong.


And again, from the IRS website:


I've posted that as well. AGAIN, it's not the definitions from the IRS that are fucked up.. ITS YOUR DESPERATION TO RATIONALIZE ILLEGAL LABOR FOR THE SAKE OF A CHEAP DRIVEWAY that is what is fucked up here, ravi.


learn the lesson that wal mart discovered.. or dont. Again, it's no skin off my nuts that you are charged will hiring illegal aliens just like the next waspy family trying to pull a slick one with their illegal maids...

 

[Shogun]

How do you know, because he looks white?

no, because he was born here. You need to take a breather or something? Maybe chug an energy drink?

 

[manifold]

Ravi,

For any job that requires a permit, such as a new roof, your argument is moot. If you do not get the permit, you are breaking the law. If you lie about who is doing the work on the permit application, you are breaking the law. You cannot hire illegals without doing one of the above, so you cannot hire illegals without breaking the law.

 

[Shogun]

I read the Walmart case. Apparently they did know that the subcontractor was employing illegals and that's why they got slapped.

and, so to are YOU knowing that you will be looking fort ILLEGALS to avoid the price of a legal contractor.


Hey, wal mart didn't have any responsibility in verification either, eh?


I mean, they were TOLD that the labor was legal, right??

 

[Shogun]

Seems clear to me too. If you hired a few day laborers from outside of Home Depot, they WOULD meet the IRS criteria of "employee." And not filing the appropriate paperwork, as well as paying them "under the table" would be breaking the law. I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise.

If on the other had, you see an ad on a bulletin board for Jose's Landscaping, and contract them to mow your lawn (using their equipment), I'm pretty sure you are protected even if the proprietor himself is illegal.

DING DING DING DING


we have a winner.

 

[Ravi]

Seems clear to me too. If you hired a few day laborers from outside of Home Depot, they WOULD meet the IRS criteria of "employee." And not filing the appropriate paperwork, as well as paying them "under the table" would be breaking the law. I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise.

If on the other had, you see an ad on a bulletin board for Jose's Landscaping, and contract them to mow your lawn (using their equipment), I'm pretty sure you are protected even if the proprietor himself is illegal.

It would depend the scope of the job, if they were employees or not. If you hired them as your gardeners, supplied the tools, and they came by every week, they would probably be your employees. If you paid them a flat fee to clear up a brush pile and never saw them again, they wouldn't be your employees.

And sure, you can get in trouble for not 1099ing them, but that's different than the immigration question.

 

[Shogun]

It would depend the scope of the job, if they were employees or not. If you hired them as your gardeners, supplied the tools, and they came by every week, they would probably be your employees. If you paid them a flat fee to clear up a brush pile and never saw them again, they wouldn't be your employees.

And sure, you can get in trouble for not 1099ing them, but that's different than the immigration question.

You are wrong. again. You are confusing your role as their employer with the assumption that any band of mexicans with their own tools are legal contractors. Insert WAL MART.

and no, it's not merely a matter of 1099, Ravi. Any more than it is when some rich asshole gets busted for having an illegal nanny when, in fact, he paid someone a flat fee for her services and assumes that amounts to an agency.


I know you hate it when Im right but you might wanna take this thread into consideration the next time you want to save money by enabling illegals.

 

[Ravi]

Yes, any major house work is a one time job. You do realize that a roof only needs to be replaced every ten to twenty years, don't you?

Which, invalidates your theory that a driveway, roof etc are in any way similar to mowing the grass. Face it, i have you cornered on this one, Ravi.


Your ignorance on what the IRS considers an employee and a contractor boggles my mind.


HA! yea, play that same hand with the judge at your arraignment.


And yes, any work done on the house is considered domestic work, doofus.

You are wrong. plain and simple. Domestic work isn't a matter of ANYTHING that is done to your home, Ravi. You can't have a group of illegals building your house and then claim that it was just a one time domestic job. But, please, believe that so you'll be all that much more shocked when the judge corrects your misgivings about labor laws.


Have you at least come down from your buzz and realized that you don't need tools to be a subcontractor?

IM not the one insisting that personal tools make a group of illegals a LEGAL CONTRACTORS, Ravi. That was exactly the point I was driving hope when making fun of you for thinking that illegals with their own socket wrench is a legal contractor. Keep up, yo.



The law on hiring illegals:
Immigration Law Compliance 4/2/94
From your very own link:
The contrary being someone you don't employ on a regular basis. I know this is probably throwing you for a loop since it's from an Employer's Handbook.

The definitions are clear, Rav.. It's YOUR erroneous application that is the crux of your mistake here. You would call any group of illegals a "contractor" when they are not. You would call building a driveway DOMESTIC and it is not. You HOPE that being purposfully ignorant about the status of the illegals in YOUR EMPLOY will keep your hands clean but, by your own tenacious effort to rationalize illegal labor, it wont.

sorry, charlie.. you are still wrong.


And again, from the IRS website:


I've posted that as well. AGAIN, it's not the definitions from the IRS that are fucked up.. ITS YOUR DESPERATION TO RATIONALIZE ILLEGAL LABOR FOR THE SAKE OF A CHEAP DRIVEWAY that is what is fucked up here, ravi.


learn the lesson that wal mart discovered.. or dont. Again, it's no skin off my nuts that you are charged will hiring illegal aliens just like the next waspy family trying to pull a slick one with their illegal maids...

The grass cutters would also qualify if they arrive with their own equipment and supervise themselves. They wouldn't be your employees either.

You're being silly. You certainly couldn't have an unlicensed company build your house with out running afoul of your city, county, and state government...but for totally different reasons.

Look on the IRS website about what is and is not considered domestic and or the differences between employee/employer relationships and the self-employed contractor. Seriously, we can't get any further on this conversation until you at least understand what is and is not an employee.

 

[manifold]

It would depend the scope of the job, if they were employees or not. If you hired them as your gardeners, supplied the tools, and they came by every week, they would probably be your employees. If you paid them a flat fee to clear up a brush pile and never saw them again, they wouldn't be your employees.

And sure, you can get in trouble for not 1099ing them, but that's different than the immigration question.

Then we agree, you cannot hire day laborers at Home Depot for any reason, and pay them "under the table," without breaking the law.