Why Israel is Wrong

[Semper Fi]

And what happens when Israel gets its ass kicked? If Syria and Iran are drawn into the conflict?
Are you ready to die in the trenches for the zionists pipe dream?

I'd give Israel a 1% chance of getting their ass kicked. I'm ready to die in the trenches in America's defense. Is it so hard to comprehend that Israel is fighting the undeclared enemies of America? Why call for Israel to restrain when we'll be their in a few years fighting the same war?

 

[liberalogic]

Most times, war is the best solution. If you havent noticed, the arabs are stuck in the 18th century as far as diplomacy goes. Not to mention it's against our beliefs to NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS. I'm really quite appalled at how quickly this nation can go from rolling up her sleeves to putting out her arms for hugs. I'm not sure where you were on September 11th, but the events I witnessed that day have stuck with me ever since. It's a shame you can forget so easily.

Have you ever heard of General Pershing? I believe he ended a chapter of islamic extremism through...wait for it...war!



http://www.masada2000.org/bacon.html

Actually, I was 20 minutes away from the WTC when it happened and I know people who died there. Yet, that fact does not turn me into a bloodthirsty hawk. I agree with you-- sadly, many issues cannot be resolved diplomatically and call for war. It's ignorant to say that war is never the answer. But it is not ALWAYS the answer. The problem with this "war on terror" is that we are fighting against a concept, not a solid, cohesive enemy. Why did we fail in Vietnam? How did we achieve independence from the superior British army? These outcomes are, in part, due to guerrilla warfare. You can never truly win if you can't find the enemy.

But let's look at this realistically. Our security is not threatened in the Middle East. Nor is it threatened here (in the US) in a militaristic sense. No Islamic nation can invade and conquer America. It's just not possible. So the biggest threat to our security is (like Israel) the suicide bomber. And sadly, it only takes a few of them to kill thousands of Americans. Can we possibly, with the use of military combat in the Middle East, eliminate this threat? Can we kill every single person who will martyr himself? Again, we can weaken, but we'll never destroy.

We must act out of sincerity; we must show them that while we disagree with their lifestyle, our ultimate goal is to achieve peace. The problem is that we haven't tried it. Everything Bush says is a threat and a condemnation. His ethnocentric vision has pushed these people further and further away. So I'll ask, what's more important: justifying the deaths of 3000 people or creating peace for millions?

 

[dilloduck]

Actually, I was 20 minutes away from the WTC when it happened and I know people who died there. Yet, that fact does not turn me into a bloodthirsty hawk. I agree with you-- sadly, many issues cannot be resolved diplomatically and call for war. It's ignorant to say that war is never the answer. But it is not ALWAYS the answer. The problem with this "war on terror" is that we are fighting against a concept, not a solid, cohesive enemy. Why did we fail in Vietnam? How did we achieve independence from the superior British army? These outcomes are, in part, due to guerrilla warfare. You can never truly win if you can't find the enemy.

But let's look at this realistically. Our security is not threatened in the Middle East. Nor is it threatened here (in the US) in a militaristic sense. No Islamic nation can invade and conquer America. It's just not possible. So the biggest threat to our security is (like Israel) the suicide bomber. And sadly, it only takes a few of them to kill thousands of Americans. Can we possibly, with the use of military combat in the Middle East, eliminate this threat? Can we kill every single person who will martyr himself? Again, we can weaken, but we'll never destroy.

We must act out of sincerity; we must show them that while we disagree with their lifestyle, our ultimate goal is to achieve peace. The problem is that we haven't tried it. Everything Bush says is a threat and a condemnation. His ethnocentric vision has pushed these people further and further away. So I'll ask, what's more important: justifying the deaths of 3000 people or creating peace for millions?

You're delusional. We've fallen over backwards trying to talk peace with islamo-facists resulting in absolute failure.How do you fight an asymetric war ? You make it symetric. The enemy is falling for it already.

 

[manu1959]

Actually, I was 20 minutes away from the WTC when it happened and I know people who died there. Yet, that fact does not turn me into a bloodthirsty hawk. I agree with you-- sadly, many issues cannot be resolved diplomatically and call for war. It's ignorant to say that war is never the answer. But it is not ALWAYS the answer. The problem with this "war on terror" is that we are fighting against a concept, not a solid, cohesive enemy. Why did we fail in Vietnam? How did we achieve independence from the superior British army? These outcomes are, in part, due to guerrilla warfare. You can never truly win if you can't find the enemy.

But let's look at this realistically. Our security is not threatened in the Middle East. Nor is it threatened here (in the US) in a militaristic sense. No Islamic nation can invade and conquer America. It's just not possible. So the biggest threat to our security is (like Israel) the suicide bomber. And sadly, it only takes a few of them to kill thousands of Americans. Can we possibly, with the use of military combat in the Middle East, eliminate this threat? Can we kill every single person who will martyr himself? Again, we can weaken, but we'll never destroy.

We must act out of sincerity; we must show them that while we disagree with their lifestyle, our ultimate goal is to achieve peace. The problem is that we haven't tried it. Everything Bush says is a threat and a condemnation. His ethnocentric vision has pushed these people further and further away. So I'll ask, what's more important: justifying the deaths of 3000 people or creating peace for millions?

before 9/11 who was bush threatening and condemning.....

 

[Avatar4321]

before 9/11 who was bush threatening and condemning.....

Al Gore

 

[Mr.Conley]

At the risk of sounding extremely repetitive, Israel is a scapgoat for the authoritarian regimes in Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia to deflect attention away from their own failure as government and preserve their dictatorial positions as they rape their countries of it's only natural resource. They use the money garnered from this rape to enrich themselves and their familes while simulataneously greating conditions so awful in the bottom 99% of their countries that people turn to religious extremism as the only escape. Eventually these people, as much out of their state induced hatred for Israel as the hopelessness of their situation, will detonate themselves on an Israeli bus in what they see as the only option they have to escape the desolation that is their lives.

The are two ways to end this horrifying situation. Either we can kill every last man, woman, and child in the Middle East, or we can institute a new Marshall Plan to foster nonoil-related economic growth in Middle Eastern countries friendly to the United States such as Jordan, Kuwait, Egypt, and Oman. Show me a country with economic growth and hope for the future and you will have showm me a country that does not produce suicide bombers. Only by improving opportunity for the youth of these countries can we ever hope to bring peace to the Middle East.

 

[Annie]

At the risk of sounding extremely repetitive, Israel is a scapgoat for the authoritarian regimes in Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia to deflect attention away from their own failure as government and preserve their dictatorial positions as they rape their countries of it's only natural resource. They use the money garnered from this rape to enrich themselves and their familes while simulataneously greating conditions so awful in the bottom 99% of their countries that people turn to religious extremism as the only escape. Eventually these people, as much out of their state induced hatred for Israel as the hopelessness of their situation, will detonate themselves on an Israeli bus in what they see as the only option they have to escape the desolation that is their lives.

The are two ways to end this horrifying situation. Either we can kill every last man, woman, and child in the Middle East, or we can institute a new Marshall Plan to foster nonoil-related economic growth in Middle Eastern countries friendly to the United States such as Jordan, Kuwait, Egypt, and Oman. Show me a country with economic growth and hope for the future and you will have showm me a country that does not produce suicide bombers. Only by improving opportunity for the youth of these countries can we ever hope to bring peace to the Middle East.

The problem is, the 'US friendly' countries you listed, are friendly by their governments only. Their people do not in large numbers feel the same way. Egypt has had arms and fighters flowing both ways from Palestinians. Their people have been marching for Hizbollah, same as in Iraq. It's like saying 'Pakistan is friendly to the US.' Yes, they 'help' us, but they also keep US out of area where they think UBL is hiding, for they would be overthrown if they did so.

Jordon's monarchy is less repressive than SA, but it's a matter of degree of corruption, make that cost of monarchy?

 

[Mr.Conley]

The problem is, the 'US friendly' countries you listed, are friendly by their governments only. Their people do not in large numbers feel the same way. Egypt has had arms and fighters flowing both ways from Palestinians. Their people have been marching for Hizbollah, same as in Iraq. It's like saying 'Pakistan is friendly to the US.' Yes, they 'help' us, but they also keep US out of area where they think UBL is hiding, for they would be overthrown if they did so.

That's inpart why we need to go into these countries. The Arabs are far more likely to like us if they see us helping them rebuild their countries, and not sitting on the sidelines, only appearing when Israel and Palestine are in trouble. It's not gonna be easy, but it's been proven to work before.

Jordon's monarchy is less repressive than SA, but it's a matter of degree of corruption, make that cost of monarchy?

Agreed, but they toe the US line, and we have to send a firm message that helping the US helps you. Eventually I'd like to see them evolve into a Constitutional Monarchy. Basically, the Jordanian monarchy is something we best work with, and not around or against, if only to make the job a little easier.

 

[Annie]

That's inpart why we need to go into these countries. The Arabs are far more likely to like us if they see us helping them rebuild their countries, and not sitting on the sidelines, only appearing when Israel and Palestine are in trouble. It's not gonna be easy, but it's been proven to work before.
Agreed, but they toe the US line, and we have to send a firm message that helping the US helps you. Eventually I'd like to see them evolve into a Constitutional Monarchy. Basically, the Jordanian monarchy is something we best work with, and not around or against, if only to make the job a little easier.

You are saying what I would have in my early 20's. Problem is, I think you are tending to see 'commonalities' that don't exist. We give an enormous amount of money already to Egypt, they are #2 to Israel. Yet, as their population has become more Islamic, they've become more anti-US. There is a commonality.

 

[Mr.Conley]

You are saying what I would have in my early 20's. Problem is, I think you are tending to see 'commonalities' that don't exist. We give an enormous amount of money already to Egypt, they are #2 to Israel. Yet, as their population has become more Islamic, they've become more anti-US. There is a commonality.

I think that's because too much of that money goes to the Egyptian military, and not the Arab street. If the money went to the right place I'd bet we'd start to see an improvement. Besides, technically we don't need them to like us. We just need to get their economy growing enough so that they are more concerned about improving their future and not demonizing Israel and by extension us. Plus, the Arab world is enraged by what they see as the unjust occupation of Arab lands in Iraq by the United States. Until we move out of Iraq we really can't do anything anyway but focus on getting their economy up and running while fending off insurgent attacks.

 

[Annie]

I think that's because too much of that money goes to the Egyptian military, and not the Arab street. If the money went to the right place I'd bet we'd start to see an improvement. Besides, technically we don't need them to like us. We just need to get their economy growing enough so that they are more concerned about improving their future and not demonizing Israel and by extension us. Plus, the Arab world is enraged by what they see as the unjust occupation of Arab lands in Iraq by the United States. Until we move out of Iraq we really can't do anything anyway but focus on getting their economy up and running while fending off insurgent attacks.

Again, I don't want to sound like, 'you are too young to get it', but I seriously doubt there is anything we can say, do, or give that will change their demonization of Israel in the Middle East. The Israelis made good money off of the hot houses and olive groves, they left the equipment behind for the Palestinians, it was looted.

The value of those goods were in the millions, but it was mostly hosing, piping, glass, pumps, etc. Nothing that individually would net much. Stupid.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Again, I don't want to sound like, 'you are too young to get it', but I seriously doubt there is anything we can say, do, or give that will change their demonization of Israel in the Middle East. The Israelis made good money off of the hot houses and olive groves, they left the equipment behind for the Palestinians, it was looted.

The value of those goods were in the millions, but it was mostly hosing, piping, glass, pumps, etc. Nothing that individually would net much. Stupid.

I think you're partly right, we can't stop the demonization of Israel, but if the Arab economy improves, and if we're lucky, we might end up in a situation similar to what China and Japan have now.

 

[Gunny]

Just because I believe that Israel has acted inappropriately does not mean that they should turn a "blind eye." That's twisting around what I'm saying and making an unimplied assumption. Reread my posts: Never did I say that they should ignore Hezbollah. My personal opinion is that their actions, the way they've handled this situation, will lead to destructive consequences in the future. But in no way does that mean they should simply ignore the threat. Also, I never said that they should stop fighting at this point. The damage has already been done.

But Hezbollah's past and current actions have not led to the current destructive consequences?

My problem with western policy in the Middle East is that we assume that war is always the best solution. Yes, war is often necessary, but no war will ever erradicate radical Islam. It may weaken it, but it will never end it.

Western policy in the Middle East is hardly that war is the solution to everything. If it was, the Muslim population; therefore, the threat of extreme Islam would be seriousyl diminished.

What we see now as a result of the REAL Western philosophy of ignoring extreme Islam as much as possible are wars that would could be avoided had those extremist groups been dealt with when they first appeared and were not completely imbedded within the infrastructures of several ME Nations.

Since Israel is surrounded by enemies, they will always be subject to heinous suicide bombings by insurgents. Since their military dwarfs those of its Islamic opponents, the biggest threat to their security will always be the martyrs. The only way to eliminate this, or at least reduce it, is to somehow try to achieve some sort of peace. While a full-scale war may weaken the military base of terrorist organizations, it will never eliminate the suicide bomber.

And what peaceful means have not been tried? Israel remounced its claim to lands taken during its various wars, and acquiessed to the establishment of Palestine.

The fact is, the Arab extremists will not compromise and are more than willing to wage a war of terror against the people of Israel. The ONLY way to deal with that is to destroy it.

Any plan that includes the surgical removal of only terrorists when the latter makes a point of hiding among and surrounding itself with noncombatants is completely unrealistic.

I doubt anything would please Israel, or me, more than if these cowardly scumbags would form up on the field of battle to fight like men. THAT would preclude noncombatant casualties.

But it isn't going to happen and you lefties play right into the hands of the terrorists by focussing on only the negative-to-the-West aspects of the war being waged.

The fact is, civilian casualties happen during war as it is currently conducted; especially, as it pertains to the Middle East, and dead terrorists can't commit murder.

 

[theHawk]

I'd give Israel a 1% chance of getting their ass kicked. I'm ready to die in the trenches in America's defense. Is it so hard to comprehend that Israel is fighting the undeclared enemies of America? Why call for Israel to restrain when we'll be their in a few years fighting the same war?

When did I ever call for Israel to restrain itself? On the contrary, I've stated they will need to wipe out all of their enemies in order to secure peace. We have a common enemy in Iran, but only because they seek nuclear weapons, not because they fund a war against the zionists.

 

[Gunny]

Again, of course the muslims hate the jews. That's a given. My entire point has been that Israel's waging of war will narrow the gap between the sunnis and shiites, which will foster a union of destruction led by Iran. That gap was much wider before this war began.

And I agree with you 100%: Where were the condemnations of Arabs when Israeli children were killed? You're right, it's an unbalanced scale. But there's a reason for that. We are not dealing with civilized people; they are fanatical monsters driven by erroneous beliefs in salvation. That certainly doesn't excuse their actions, but it should make us think twice about how we handle the situation if we hope to stabilize the region.

Civilized or not, and whatever the reason, you and the left in general do the situation no good by responding exactly as the terrorists expect; thereby, fulfilling the propaganda portion of their plan.

It isn't even that the deaths of Lebanese or Palestinian noncombatants are protested. It's that the deaths of Israeli civilians get only a begrudging, minimal one-sentence recognition as fact two pages into a thread while Lebanese and Palestinian noncombatants get the focus of the entire thread.

Fair and balanced? Hardly.

 

[Gunny]

And what happens when Israel gets its ass kicked? If Syria and Iran are drawn into the conflict?
Are you ready to die in the trenches for the zionists pipe dream?

You mean like every other time Syria and Iran have kicked Israel's ass?

 

[Gunny]

Actually, I was 20 minutes away from the WTC when it happened and I know people who died there. Yet, that fact does not turn me into a bloodthirsty hawk. I agree with you-- sadly, many issues cannot be resolved diplomatically and call for war. It's ignorant to say that war is never the answer. But it is not ALWAYS the answer. The problem with this "war on terror" is that we are fighting against a concept, not a solid, cohesive enemy. Why did we fail in Vietnam? How did we achieve independence from the superior British army? These outcomes are, in part, due to guerrilla warfare. You can never truly win if you can't find the enemy.

But let's look at this realistically. Our security is not threatened in the Middle East. Nor is it threatened here (in the US) in a militaristic sense. No Islamic nation can invade and conquer America. It's just not possible. So the biggest threat to our security is (like Israel) the suicide bomber. And sadly, it only takes a few of them to kill thousands of Americans. Can we possibly, with the use of military combat in the Middle East, eliminate this threat? Can we kill every single person who will martyr himself? Again, we can weaken, but we'll never destroy.

We must act out of sincerity; we must show them that while we disagree with their lifestyle, our ultimate goal is to achieve peace. The problem is that we haven't tried it. Everything Bush says is a threat and a condemnation. His ethnocentric vision has pushed these people further and further away. So I'll ask, what's more important: justifying the deaths of 3000 people or creating peace for millions?

Who needs to invade? While we sit idly by, Iran is developing nuclear weapons that preclude the necessity of invasion. At the touch of a button they can obliterate whole cities.

Now go ahead and tell me how many years it will be before they are capable of doing it.

 

[dilloduck]

You mean like every other time Syria and Iran have kicked Israel's ass?

The only danger I think Israel faces are long range weapons filled with WMDs of some sort. So far the Hizbullys haven't been given permission to use them. If that changes, there will be a retalitation like we have never seen and I suspect the US to be part of it. The question is if the US is willing to face the oil being shut off which at the moment is the biggest weapon Iran has.

 

[Gunny]

The only danger I think Israel faces are long range weapons filled with WMDs of some sort. So far the Hizbullys haven't been given permission to use them. If that changes, there will be a retalitation like we have never seen and I suspect the US to be part of it. The question is if the US is willing to face the oil being shut off which at the moment is the biggest weapon Iran has.

If it goes that far, then we need to just take the oil.

 

[dilloduck]

If it goes that far, then we need to just take the oil.

We may have to--I'm sure the matter hasn't gone unnoticed. Apart from an internal rebellion we ARE going to be toe to toe with Iran--probably sooner than later.