Why do some think the Government owns your money

[rightwinger]

Interesting

The same people who claim to defend the Constitution despise the very government that it establishes

The same people who claim to defend the Constitution despise the very government that it ignores it now....

Fixed it for you

The people who were defeated in a legal election claim that somehow their Constitutional rights are violated because they do not get to call the shots

 

[Stephanie]

We have had several threads recently and a lot in the past where different posters have declared things like " if the Government lowers taxes, shouldn't we know what the money is spent on" or "lower taxes are stealing from the Government".

Are people not aware that the Government taxes THEIR money, the Government does not possess any money it self it takes from the citizens via taxes and fees. When taxes are lowered the Government is not GIVING anyone money, they are just not taking as much as before.

The Government has the right to tax, and taxes are needed to run essential services. But where did this concept that the Government is giving you money if they lower taxes come from?

Where did the concept that if the Government takes less of your money they should be able to make you tell them what you spend your money on come from? Or the thought that any money the Government does not collect is still the Governments money that they just let you use?

If there was no government, you would live in a cardboard box next to a hole in the ground where you take a dump. Me? I want sewers and electricity and roads.

my gawd...you are being serious...scary

 

[editec]

Why do some think the Government owns your money

Oh boy! The Sarge takes on another straw man.

 

[Polk]

I feel like the OP is a strawman. I've never encountered anyone who thinks all income belongs to the state.

ahoy Polk,

them who equate taxes with outright theft would think so.

- MeadHallPirate

"Taxation=theft" isn't an argument saying that all income belongs to the state.

 

[Polk]

We have had several threads recently and a lot in the past where different posters have declared things like " if the Government lowers taxes, shouldn't we know what the money is spent on" or "lower taxes are stealing from the Government".

Are people not aware that the Government taxes THEIR money, the Government does not possess any money it self it takes from the citizens via taxes and fees. When taxes are lowered the Government is not GIVING anyone money, they are just not taking as much as before.

The Government has the right to tax, and taxes are needed to run essential services. But where did this concept that the Government is giving you money if they lower taxes come from?

Where did the concept that if the Government takes less of your money they should be able to make you tell them what you spend your money on come from? Or the thought that any money the Government does not collect is still the Governments money that they just let you use?

If there was no government, you would live in a cardboard box next to a hole in the ground where you take a dump. Me? I want sewers and electricity and roads.

my gawd...you are being serious...scary

His argument goes a bit too far, but parts of his point are valid. It's unlikely the private sector would engage in the construction of sewers and roads on the scale needed to support society.

 

[MeadHallPirate]

ahoy Polk,

i often get the feelin' in them "taxation = theft" does mean that any taxes that be collected be a kind 'o theft.

at least, thats way the OP read to me.

what be yer intepretation 'o the phrase, matey?

- MeadHallPirate

 

[Polk]

ahoy Polk,

i often get the feelin' in them "taxation = theft" does mean that any taxes that be collected be a kind 'o theft.

at least, thats way the OP read to me.

what be yer intepretation 'o the phrase, matey?

- MeadHallPirate

It does mean that, but that statement is clearly saying that taxation is stealing from the rightful owner. After all, if the government was the rightful owner, it wouldn't be theft.

 

[MeadHallPirate]

ahoy Polk,

ahh, i see what ye mean.

*paces a bit and considers*

i see taxation as a kind 'o invoice that comes due fer services rendered. like, if ye want to buy senior citizens scooter chairs that i see on them late night commercials via medicare, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

or if ye want to build yerself an aircraft carrier, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

taxes are like a bill that comes in the mail fer things we bought. not payin' fer these things but demandin' them, though, seems alot like theft to me.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

 

[gallantwarrior]

ahoy Polk,

ahh, i see what ye mean.

*paces a bit and considers*

i see taxation as a kind 'o invoice that comes due fer services rendered. like, if ye want to buy senior citizens scooter chairs that i see on them late night commercials via medicare, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

or if ye want to build yerself an aircraft carrier, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

taxes are like a bill that comes in the mail fer things we bought. not payin' fer these things but demandin' them, though, seems alot like theft to me.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

I think the objection comes when you are handed an "invoice" for something you never ordered, never wanted, and see no useful purpose for (if the given reason is better facilities for everyone, i.e. the general public). It's kind of like being forced to chip in to buy the neighbor that 60" flat screen TV he's always wanted but can't afford.


Oh, yeah.....yyaaahhrr!

 

[MeadHallPirate]

ahoy Polk,

ahh, i see what ye mean.

*paces a bit and considers*

i see taxation as a kind 'o invoice that comes due fer services rendered. like, if ye want to buy senior citizens scooter chairs that i see on them late night commercials via medicare, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

or if ye want to build yerself an aircraft carrier, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

taxes are like a bill that comes in the mail fer things we bought. not payin' fer these things but demandin' them, though, seems alot like theft to me.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

I think the objection comes when you are handed an "invoice" for something you never ordered, never wanted, and see no useful purpose for (if the given reason is better facilities for everyone, i.e. the general public). It's kind of like being forced to chip in to buy the neighbor that 60" flat screen TV he's always wanted but can't afford.


Oh, yeah.....yyaaahhrr!

ahoy GallantWarrior, well met!

i can see the sense 'o that. i don't recieve Tricare, and don't have much use fer it...but veterans generally prefer socialized healthcare, so our nation recieves a bill fer the services rendered.

likewise, i don't see why folks have to live in a tinderbox, but Coloradians seem to enjoy it, so when thar entire state catches on fire, i get billed here in me own state fer services rendered.

senior citizens enjoy the heck outta thar medicare, aye matey? so then, we all get billed fer the services rendered.

thats the way it works, i think. 'tis true that you or meself have no use, fer example, fer Tricare....but it is what it is, aye?

them things gotta be paid fer, the Government cannot and should not ask China to pay fer'm.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

 

[gallantwarrior]

ahoy Polk,

ahh, i see what ye mean.

*paces a bit and considers*

i see taxation as a kind 'o invoice that comes due fer services rendered. like, if ye want to buy senior citizens scooter chairs that i see on them late night commercials via medicare, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

or if ye want to build yerself an aircraft carrier, then ye get taxed, fer it must be paid fer.

taxes are like a bill that comes in the mail fer things we bought. not payin' fer these things but demandin' them, though, seems alot like theft to me.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

I think the objection comes when you are handed an "invoice" for something you never ordered, never wanted, and see no useful purpose for (if the given reason is better facilities for everyone, i.e. the general public). It's kind of like being forced to chip in to buy the neighbor that 60" flat screen TV he's always wanted but can't afford.


Oh, yeah.....yyaaahhrr!

ahoy GallantWarrior, well met!

i can see the sense 'o that. i don't recieve Tricare, and don't have much use fer it...but veterans generally prefer socialized healthcare, so our nation recieves a bill fer the services rendered.

likewise, i don't see why folks have to live in a tinderbox, but Coloradians seem to enjoy it, so when thar entire state catches on fire, i get billed here in me own state fer services rendered.

senior citizens enjoy the heck outta thar medicare, aye matey? so then, we all get billed fer the services rendered.

thats the way it works, i think. 'tis true that you or meself have no use, fer example, fer Tricare....but it is what it is, aye?

them things gotta be paid fer, the Government cannot and should not ask China to pay fer'm.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

I will address the Medicare issue. Considering that most of us are forced to pay into that account all our working lives, it is not the same as being dunned for some of the other things you mention. Not only have we been assessed for that service, Medicare is not an option. I know of many people who had damned good health insurance as part of their retirement package, and who were forced to use Medicare as their primary insurance when they reached the age when Medicare kicks in. Oh, the veterans must now pay a premium to enroll in Tricare, just in case you missed that memo.

 

[Ravi]

We have had several threads recently and a lot in the past where different posters have declared things like " if the Government lowers taxes, shouldn't we know what the money is spent on" or "lower taxes are stealing from the Government".

Are people not aware that the Government taxes THEIR money, the Government does not possess any money it self it takes from the citizens via taxes and fees. When taxes are lowered the Government is not GIVING anyone money, they are just not taking as much as before.

The Government has the right to tax, and taxes are needed to run essential services. But where did this concept that the Government is giving you money if they lower taxes come from?

Where did the concept that if the Government takes less of your money they should be able to make you tell them what you spend your money on come from? Or the thought that any money the Government does not collect is still the Governments money that they just let you use?

This is a funny thread subject from someone that is a leech on society.

 

[editec]

The government DOES own those bills in your pocket.

Doubt me?

Check out the laws against defacing those federal reserve bills.

Clearly it couldn't be against the law if the bills in your pocket were truly yours.

Yeah, I know, the laws seems very weird to me, too.

 

[MeadHallPirate]

I will address the Medicare issue. Considering that most of us are forced to pay into that account all our working lives, it is not the same as being dunned for some of the other things you mention. Not only have we been assessed for that service, Medicare is not an option. I know of many people who had damned good health insurance as part of their retirement package, and who were forced to use Medicare as their primary insurance when they reached the age when Medicare kicks in. Oh, the veterans must now pay a premium to enroll in Tricare, just in case you missed that memo.

ahoy GallantWarrior,

*bows*

'mornin' me bucko.

i understand that folks pay into Medicare, but apparently whatever is bein' paid isn't enough, aye?

WASHINGTON - You paid your Medicare taxes all those years and want your money's worth: full benefits after you retire.

Nearly three out of five people say in a recent Associated Press-GfK poll that they paid into the system so they deserve their full benefits - no cuts.

But a newly updated financial analysis shows that what people paid into the system doesn't come close to covering the full value of the medical care they can expect to receive as retirees.

Medicare vastly underfunded, new analysis shows

yet despite this alarmin' news, senior citizens seem pretty steadfast to me 'bout demandin' thar programs remain intact. when i couple this with the reality that most americans seem very, very averse to allowin' the Bush era tax cuts to sunset, i can only make two conclusions, me friend;

1) Americans seem to favor keepin' medicare payouts more or less as they have been.

2) Americans also, though, do not want to actually pay fer these benefits.

aye?

and aye, i be aware that Tricare folks have premiums. what doth it come out to, per person? 40....50 dollars per month? what i pay be many, many, many times that fer me own Blue Cross plan. i subsidize them military folks healthcare plans, unless imma mistaken.

our folks who serve may have been promised free healthcare fer life, if they served fer 20 years, but as Governor Christie hath said, promises were made to folks (in this case, veterans) that the Federal Government was never in a position to make good on. now, that be an unfortunate thing, but perpetuatin' the status quo isn't an answer, aye?

programs have to be cut, fer everyone.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

 

[MeadHallPirate]

This is a funny thread subject from someone that is a leech on society.

ahoy Ravi,

fer whatever reason, folks who be very firm in thar fiscal conservatism and thar zeal to cut government spendin' always seem to exempt thar own entitlements from the process.

i've never really understood this dynamic. it puzzles me, aye it does.

- MeadHallPirate

 

[gallantwarrior]

I will address the Medicare issue. Considering that most of us are forced to pay into that account all our working lives, it is not the same as being dunned for some of the other things you mention. Not only have we been assessed for that service, Medicare is not an option. I know of many people who had damned good health insurance as part of their retirement package, and who were forced to use Medicare as their primary insurance when they reached the age when Medicare kicks in. Oh, the veterans must now pay a premium to enroll in Tricare, just in case you missed that memo.

ahoy GallantWarrior,

*bows*

'mornin' me bucko.

i understand that folks pay into Medicare, but apparently whatever is bein' paid isn't enough, aye?

WASHINGTON - You paid your Medicare taxes all those years and want your money's worth: full benefits after you retire.

Nearly three out of five people say in a recent Associated Press-GfK poll that they paid into the system so they deserve their full benefits - no cuts.

But a newly updated financial analysis shows that what people paid into the system doesn't come close to covering the full value of the medical care they can expect to receive as retirees.

Medicare vastly underfunded, new analysis shows

yet despite this alarmin' news, senior citizens seem pretty steadfast to me 'bout demandin' thar programs remain intact. when i couple this with the reality that most americans seem very, very averse to allowin' the Bush era tax cuts to sunset, i can only make two conclusions, me friend;

1) Americans seem to favor keepin' medicare payouts more or less as they have been.

2) Americans also, though, do not want to actually pay fer these benefits.

aye?

and aye, i be aware that Tricare folks have premiums. what doth it come out to, per person? 40....50 dollars per month? what i pay be many, many, many times that fer me own Blue Cross plan. i subsidize them military folks healthcare plans, unless imma mistaken.

our folks who serve may have been promised free healthcare fer life, if they served fer 20 years, but as Governor Christie hath said, promises were made to folks (in this case, veterans) that the Federal Government was never in a position to make good on. now, that be an unfortunate thing, but perpetuatin' the status quo isn't an answer, aye?

programs have to be cut, fer everyone.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

I agree that many programs need to be cut. There are a lot of unbelievably wasteful programs. I would see cuts begin with the cash cow giveaways to industries like so-called "green" technologies as represented by the Solyndra debacle, or mega companies like Monsanto. I would also like to see some sanity when the government funds research! Like this gem: 'Shrimp On A Treadmill' And The Politics Of 'Silly' Science Studies : NPR

 

[rightwinger]

I will address the Medicare issue. Considering that most of us are forced to pay into that account all our working lives, it is not the same as being dunned for some of the other things you mention. Not only have we been assessed for that service, Medicare is not an option. I know of many people who had damned good health insurance as part of their retirement package, and who were forced to use Medicare as their primary insurance when they reached the age when Medicare kicks in. Oh, the veterans must now pay a premium to enroll in Tricare, just in case you missed that memo.

ahoy GallantWarrior,

*bows*

'mornin' me bucko.

i understand that folks pay into Medicare, but apparently whatever is bein' paid isn't enough, aye?

WASHINGTON - You paid your Medicare taxes all those years and want your money's worth: full benefits after you retire.

Nearly three out of five people say in a recent Associated Press-GfK poll that they paid into the system so they deserve their full benefits - no cuts.

But a newly updated financial analysis shows that what people paid into the system doesn't come close to covering the full value of the medical care they can expect to receive as retirees.

Medicare vastly underfunded, new analysis shows

yet despite this alarmin' news, senior citizens seem pretty steadfast to me 'bout demandin' thar programs remain intact. when i couple this with the reality that most americans seem very, very averse to allowin' the Bush era tax cuts to sunset, i can only make two conclusions, me friend;

1) Americans seem to favor keepin' medicare payouts more or less as they have been.

2) Americans also, though, do not want to actually pay fer these benefits.

aye?

and aye, i be aware that Tricare folks have premiums. what doth it come out to, per person? 40....50 dollars per month? what i pay be many, many, many times that fer me own Blue Cross plan. i subsidize them military folks healthcare plans, unless imma mistaken.

our folks who serve may have been promised free healthcare fer life, if they served fer 20 years, but as Governor Christie hath said, promises were made to folks (in this case, veterans) that the Federal Government was never in a position to make good on. now, that be an unfortunate thing, but perpetuatin' the status quo isn't an answer, aye?

programs have to be cut, fer everyone.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

I agree that many programs need to be cut. There are a lot of unbelievably wasteful programs. I would see cuts begin with the cash cow giveaways to industries like so-called "green" technologies as represented by the Solyndra debacle, or mega companies like Monsanto. I would also like to see some sanity when the government funds research! Like this gem: 'Shrimp On A Treadmill' And The Politics Of 'Silly' Science Studies : NPR

What is your objection to the "Shrimp on a Treadmill" study?

That you don't understand it?

 

[MeadHallPirate]

I agree that many programs need to be cut. There are a lot of unbelievably wasteful programs. I would see cuts begin with the cash cow giveaways to industries like so-called "green" technologies as represented by the Solyndra debacle, or mega companies like Monsanto. I would also like to see some sanity when the government funds research! Like this gem: 'Shrimp On A Treadmill' And The Politics Of 'Silly' Science Studies : NPR

ahoy GallantWarrior,

from the link that ye provided, me bucko;

Looking at past examples, however, shows that there seems to be a pattern to how research gets singled out — and what happens after it's put under the spotlight.

Take the case of the "shrimp on a treadmill." Burnett says the senator's report linked that work to a half-million-dollar research grant. But that money actually went to a lot of different research that he and his colleagues did on this economically important seafood species.

The treadmills were just a small part of it, a way to measure how shrimp respond to changes in water quality. Burnett says the first treadmill was built by a colleague from scraps and was basically free, and the second was fancier and cost about $1,000. The senator's report was misleading, says Burnett, "and it suggests that much money was spent on seeing how long a shrimp can run on a treadmill, which was totally out of context."

both me parents be scientists, so i understand how research that be not fully grasped by the general public may seem, at times, absurd.

and aye, perhaps taxes ought to be raised on certain industries (since removin' a tax credit fer a given industry, functionally, probably feels the same as a tax hike), such as the green tech sectors ye cited. the problem be this, though - ye have congressmen blockin' yer wishes;

The Iowa Wind Energy Association has estimated letting the tax credit expire could mean the loss of 37,000 jobs in the state, and prominent Republicans — including Iowa Gov. Terry Branstad and Sen. Chuck Grassley — have been vocal proponents for its renewal.

“Mitt Romney is virtually the only person in the state that thinks ending tax incentives for wind energy is a good idea,” said Navin Nayak, a spokesman for the League of Conservation Voters, in a statement.

Romney steers clear of wind energy tax credit controversy in Iowa - The Hill's Video

if Mr. Romney wins the skipper's seat, imma very interested to see if it be politically possible to cut things like farm subsidies, oil and gas subsidies and the aforementioned green tech subsidies.

to return to the OP - i think the idear that the Government be performin' an injustice by "takin'" our monies be a bit off kilter. the citizens vote folks in who promise to deliver government spendin' fer thar consituents, and then the Government ought be billin' us (in the form 'o taxes), to pay fer them services.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate