Zone1 WHUUUUUT??!$!#! corrupt mr Zelensky wants to take back crimea?

[frigidweirdo]

Putin has no real plans for conquest, and like i said, and you acknowledge, Ukraine was taken from him by NATO by political wrangling that spanned decades.
so handing parts of Ukraine back to him that are vital to defense by Russia of the Black Sea and Sea of Azov, is not appeasement. it's simply "giving him the space he deserves".

and please note : i'm no commie / socialist. i'm a centralist conservative. a Dutch-US style conservative.

I totally disagree.

Putin loved the USSR. He wants to bring it back together under Russian supremacy.

Looking at his involvement with the Ukraine, you can see it's been going on for 20 years.

Russia–Ukraine relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In 2002, the Russian Government participated in financing the construction of the Khmelnytskyi and the Rivne Nuclear Power Plants."

Kuchma was the Ukrainian president from 1994 to 2005. The guy was pro-Russian and pro-Putin in the last 5-6 years of his presidency. Though this isn't full on Putinism, it was more a pragmatic political choice. He supported a pro-EU candidate to replace him as president.

That president was Viktor Yushchenko, a former Prime Minister of Kuchma's.
And guess what, Yushchenko was POISONED. A familiar tactic of Putin's.

It's pretty obvious that Putin had something to do with it. Three of the men at the dinner where he was poisoned are in Russia and Russia refused to extradite these men.

Didn't work, Yushchenko became president and wanted to join the EU and NATO. Not hard to see why. Those former USSR countries that joined the EU are rich. While those that didn't, Belarus and the Ukraine especially, but also Georgia, and other -stan countries and Armenia, are all under Russia's thumb.
Then there was a gas conflict, in 2009. Russia withdrew from a missile warning agreement, and the Ukraine supported Georgia against Russia in the 2008 attack on Georgia.

After this a pro-Russian president from the Donbas region. Then it went all anti-Russia from there, because... well, after the pro-Russian president was kicked out, the Russians then invaded the Crimea and the east of the Ukraine....
Putin had been trying to get his own people in place in the Ukraine, when it failed he used it as a pretext to take over parts of the Ukraine.


You say the Ukraine was taken from Putin. Er... excuse me, the Ukraine was not Putin's in the first place. Anyone who acts like it was and then claims it's NATO's fault that the Ukraine did not want to be Russian is ludicrous.

 

[peacefan]

Their demands are not reasonable and their power is not adequate to their demands.

hanging on to *their* old borders and military cities (Sebastopol in Crimea) isn't reasonable?!..
how?

 

[peacefan]

I totally disagree.

Putin loved the USSR. He wants to bring it back together under Russian supremacy.

Looking at his involvement with the Ukraine, you can see it's been going on for 20 years.

Russia–Ukraine relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In 2002, the Russian Government participated in financing the construction of the Khmelnytskyi and the Rivne Nuclear Power Plants."

Kuchma was the Ukrainian president from 1994 to 2005. The guy was pro-Russian and pro-Putin in the last 5-6 years of his presidency. Though this isn't full on Putinism, it was more a pragmatic political choice. He supported a pro-EU candidate to replace him as president.

That president was Viktor Yushchenko, a former Prime Minister of Kuchma's.
And guess what, Yushchenko was POISONED. A familiar tactic of Putin's.

It's pretty obvious that Putin had something to do with it. Three of the men at the dinner where he was poisoned are in Russia and Russia refused to extradite these men.

Didn't work, Yushchenko became president and wanted to join the EU and NATO. Not hard to see why. Those former USSR countries that joined the EU are rich. While those that didn't, Belarus and the Ukraine especially, but also Georgia, and other -stan countries and Armenia, are all under Russia's thumb.
Then there was a gas conflict, in 2009. Russia withdrew from a missile warning agreement, and the Ukraine supported Georgia against Russia in the 2008 attack on Georgia.

After this a pro-Russian president from the Donbas region. Then it went all anti-Russia from there, because... well, after the pro-Russian president was kicked out, the Russians then invaded the Crimea and the east of the Ukraine....
Putin had been trying to get his own people in place in the Ukraine, when it failed he used it as a pretext to take over parts of the Ukraine.


You say the Ukraine was taken from Putin. Er... excuse me, the Ukraine was not Putin's in the first place. Anyone who acts like it was and then claims it's NATO's fault that the Ukraine did not want to be Russian is ludicrous.

ok, i know when to yield, and do so permanently. but i'm not sure yet if i should do so on this "campaign" of mine..
(i'm keeping reader levels for my ideas quite reasonably low, i only post them here and on my own fb timeline with subsequent emailing, posting and linking to official US and Dutch political parties and news organisations)

Putin and his cronies (modern-day failed protectors of the Russian homeland, failed at the diplomatic-skills level) are all a-holes and biatches (i've heard the Navalsky stories in detail on CNN-US) towards all that oppose them,
and they deserves to have Crimea taken from them.

or : is the EU so welcoming that they invite any freedom-loving people to sign over their country to them?
and does the EU and NATO use dirty diplomatic and business strategies with that?
are the EU and NATO simply more skilled at warfare in general, and -more importantly!- are they abusing that in greedy expansionistic efforts, like the creation of Israel, and "the liberation of Vietnam", and in so so many other spots around the world since at least the end of WW2, but also before that, even in the 1400s-1600s (de-Inca-fication of South America by Europeans that arrived by ship with guns)..?


is it any wonder the rest of the world hates us?
i don't think so.
but here's the crux of my argumentation, and a loop back right to the start of it : should we anger a population size that outnumbers us 3:1 any more than we already have, as Westerners (capitalist democracies)?

 

[DudleySmith]

Ukraine. and you know what they say about the Russian bear : don't provoke it.

More like 'don't provoke a demented starving rat'. Unless it's in your sink, that is.

Ukrainian territory runs all the way to the Caspian Sea by the way, and they deserve it back.

 

[DudleySmith]

hanging on to *their* old borders and military cities (Sebastopol in Crimea) isn't reasonable?!..
how?

What 'old borders'? Ukraine was its own republic under the Soviets, not Russian. You must think Spain still owns the western U.S. as well.

 

[peacefan]

I AM VEHEMENTLY AGAINST ANYONE TRYING TO TAKE SEBASTOPOL AND ALL ROUTES LEADING TO IT, FROM THE RUSSIANS.
and i will remain so, i think

my reasoning for this stance, aside from not angering that 3:1 outnumbering enemy set of forces (an entire population can be quite the force) - for obvious reasons,
is this : the conflicts with terrorism recruiters online (of which i was an integral part) have proven to me beyond a doubt that the stronger side of a nearly equalled set of players in the field should
be reasonable in the amount of territorial and economic and even cultural greed that they project onto their lesser capable foes.
or they go the way of the roman empires and so many other greedy and thus failed empires,

mainly through rot from within mind you - past immigration becoming very problematic during future conflicts that -guess what- turn racial.

 

[peacefan]

i'm not being paid by anyone for this work/hobby that i perform here on usmessageboard.com, in case anyone's wondering.
not in money, and not in favors or material goods.
never have been, never will be, because i don't want to be paid.

i'm just sincerely afraid of that outnumbering force.
but not so much that i sh!t my pants over it either.
i can be strict with my enemies.

it's just that Sobastopol is wel over 100 years old, a beautiful naval defense city, and it really belongs to the Russians.
as do the Black and Azov Seas.

 

[peacefan]

maybe in 200 years from now, with me up in Heaven, my soul will think : but the Russians are not reasonable. i was wrong with that whole Sebastopol "thing" back then in 2023/07 on usmessageboard.com, and i need to do differently during my next lifetime.

and then i'd be happy to fight guys like who act like i do here today online and in the ring

 

[Unkotare]

... that 3:1 outnumbering enemy set of forces ...

What force is that?

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

hanging on to *their* old borders and military cities (Sebastopol in Crimea) isn't reasonable?!..
how?

Not when they ceded them in 1991. I under the Russian fear of Germany marching east every generation is historic. However, the NATO borders are set. Ukraine will be joining the alliance. Russia will, willingly or not, have to accept this reality.

 

[rightwinger]

Not when they ceded them in 1991. I under the Russian fear of Germany marching east every generation is historic. However, the NATO borders are set. Ukraine will be joining the alliance. Russia will, willingly or not, have to accept this reality.

Russia will also have to accept the blame for destabilizing the region

 

[g5000]

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/03/europe/zelensky-ukraine-putin-erin-burnett-interview-intl-cmd/index.html

here we see the ultimate territorial greed by NATO and the EU displayed in "brave mr Zelensky's publicly stated goals".
a sea (the Black Sea) with connection at Turkey to the Medditeranean Sea and thus The Atlantic,
control of which is vital to the defense of Russia itself,
was taken from Russia via the principles of media manipulation, political manipulations and voting results manipulations in Ukraine (by The West, in the 2000s and 2010s probably, but before that as well).

and now that Russia finally stepped in and liberated the Russian native speakers in that region, who clearly indicated in several referendums that they wanted to be a part of Russia,
as well as that naval base, and while Zelensky is losing his war to regain control over his old border territories,
i do suspect the US Democrats to be supporting mr Zelensky for another round of war, that has no doubt proven very profitable for the insiders at the top, and more and more rounds (years!) of war.
juuuuust great. NOT!

Crimea is sovereign Ukrainian territory.

The end.

 

[alang1216]

i once met a man from Lithuania here in Amsterdam for a conversation, and when talking about his home country he said he liked the Russians (i basically asked him if he did).

Did he say he liked Russians or did he say he liked Russia? Two very different things.

 

[peacefan]

Did he say he liked Russians or did he say he liked Russia? Two very different things.

he said he like the Russians.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Tell it to Putin

I’m sure you’ll feel warm and fuzzy blaming an immoral aggressor, while the corrupt, immoral retaliation could lead to millions of deaths and escalate world tensions.

Good for you, you’re so awesome.

I hope others in higher positions aren’t so simple minded. Sometimes you have to eat L’s in life, and trying to get people back in the name of bland fairness can cause horrible unnecessary things

Or better yet, since you and your Democrat brethren so supported and celebrated Ukraine, why don’t you leave this first world paradise and sign up for the Ukraine front lines.. you could sure show Putin yourself

 

[rightwinger]

I’m sure you’ll feel warm and fuzzy blaming an immoral aggressor, while the corrupt, immoral retaliation could lead to millions of deaths and escalate world tensions.

Good for you, you’re so awesome.

I hope others in higher positions aren’t so simple minded. Sometimes you have to eat L’s in life, and trying to get people back in the name of bland fairness can cause horrible unnecessary things

Or better yet, since you and your Democrat brethren so supported and celebrated Ukraine, why don’t you leave this first world paradise and sign up for the Ukraine front lines.. you could sure show Putin yourself

OK….what is your solution?

Putin is occupying Ukraine territory, has destroyed critical Infrastructure, slaughtered civilians.


Where do we go from here?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

OK….what is your solution?

Putin is occupying Ukraine territory, has destroyed critical Infrastructure, slaughtered civilians.


Where do we go from here?

Negotiations.. in the name of saving lives. (Hopefully once Biden is out of office) Putin laughs at Biden, and we know Biden cowers in the fetal position when challenged by foreign powers

1. Is vengeance in the name of first world fairness that causes tons of lives lost worth it?

2. Do you think Putin will lay down if Crimea is retaken?

What do you think should happen? A full frontal assault? A US backed war threatening a NATO Ukraine which Putin has said would ensure nuclear war? Are these people pawns to you? Don’t let the Democrat politically-designed hatred of Putin cause a desire for horrible geopolitical war consequences

 

[rightwinger]

Negotiations.. in the name of saving lives. (Hopefully once Biden is out of office) Putin laughs at Biden, and we know Biden cowers in the fetal position when challenged by foreign powers

1. Is vengeance in the name of first world fairness that causes tons of lives lost worth it?

2. Do you think Putin will lay down if Crimea is retaken?

What do you think should happen? A full frontal assault? A US backed war threatening a NATO Ukraine which Putin has said would ensure nuclear war? Are these people pawns to you? Don’t let the Democrat politically-designed hatred of Putin cause a desire for horrible geopolitical war consequences

OK…….Negotiate

That means each side gives a little and each side gains a little

What will Russia give and what will they gain?
What will Ukraine give and what will they gain?

Give it a try

 

[luiza]

i gotta wonder if that is a bit of a myth that's been projected by western governments as part of their expansionistic efforts into far-eastern Europe,
rather than 'reality'.
i once met a man from Lithuania here in Amsterdam for a conversation, and when talking about his home country he said he liked the Russians (i basically asked him if he did).

That must have been Litwin,aka winkleTitty , being honest for a change .Part of him still resents Moscow for chasing him away for having been a Vilnius extremist when he was still drinking heavily . Now he is recovering but mentally just a fragile shell .

 

[Mr. Friscus]

OK…….Negotiate

That means each side gives a little and each side gains a little

What will Russia give and what will they gain?
What will Ukraine give and what will they gain?

Give it a try

Yes, try.

In case you didn’t know how negotiations work, you can’t just look from the outside and say who will get what. This is poker, chess, whatever you want to call it.

The problem is, the guy you voted for is the weakest president ever, and foreign powers like China, Iran, and Russia know it, which is why they’ve become far more active once he was elected.

Once we get this neutered puffball out of office, we can actually negotiate. Well done on basically supporting these immoral powers by electing a begging doormat who is more concerned with DEI than human lives