Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[Andylusion]

I'm confused... what was the decline in the auto industry? Last year was a record year in auto industry sales world wide, which would include Ford, and GM.

Apologize for any confusion. I understand that the auto industry is alive and well globally. My reference was Detroit specific with resulting job migration which had an economic domino effect...which I believe I stated was the beginning of the end. Time frame pre-dates the riots - but not at all am I discounting the effects of those and other events. Joblessness is a contributing factor to civil unrest...and all the resulting problems. That's not meant as an excuse - an observation only.

The civil unrest happened first, then joblessness.

The whole reason the car companies moved their manufacturing out of Detroit, was because of the civil problems, the work quality problems from drugs, and the union laws.

You seem to be looking at an effect, and calling it a cause. Joblessness happened because the drugs, unrest, and Unions. Not drugs and unrest, were caused by joblessness.

 

[SeaGal]

Gotta give you a gentle rap with a fluffy ruler on that one SeaGal. Thread rules require that you excerpt something showing the point you intend the reader to see or explain it in your own words when you post a link.

Feel free, I've suffered worse.

I believe I've spent quite a bit of time on numerous posts expressing the point 'in my own words' to justify the posting of a link. There was no excerpt used. But I will keep your warning in mind. Thank you.

However it isn't 'my' point that matters - I'm not disputing any of the other contributive factors...in fact I've articulated them myself. Not at all sure what the issue is - there is room in a discussion of a complicated issue, such as the economic collapse of a large and formerly vibrant city to acknowledge all factors, not just those that fit a particular narrative...such as poor management and/or unintended consequences of public policy. To put it simply - it just ain't that simple.

Are you of the opinion that loss of jobs in the city had no effect on the decline of Detroit?

 

[Foxfyre]

Gotta give you a gentle rap with a fluffy ruler on that one SeaGal. Thread rules require that you excerpt something showing the point you intend the reader to see or explain it in your own words when you post a link.

Feel free, I've suffered worse.

I believe I've spent quite a bit of time on numerous posts expressing the point 'in my own words' to justify the posting of a link. There was no excerpt used. But I will keep your warning in mind. Thank you.

However it isn't 'my' point that matters - I'm not disputing any of the other contributive factors...in fact I've articulated them myself. Not at all sure what the issue is - there is room in a discussion of a complicated issue, such as the economic collapse of a large and formerly vibrant city to acknowledge all factors, not just those that fit a particular narrative...such as poor management and/or unintended consequences of public policy. To put it simply - it just ain't that simple.

Are you of the opinion that loss of jobs in the city had no effect on the decline of Detroit?

No. Loss of jobs that people need is always a bad thing in any community.

But just standing back and looking at the big picture, the dynamic does beg the question: did the decline in the community create the flight to the suburbs that in turn caused the jobs to move where the people were which in turn left the inner city devoid of jobs? And was welfare that decimated the black family plus urban renewal that tore black communities apart and destroyed jobs the cause or a significant cause of the decline?

Sort of a chicken vs egg first kind of situation maybe?

 

[SeaGal]

When I find myself in a circular firing squad, I tend to step away. However...

Other big cities - NYC, LA, Chicago - experienced many of the same events that plagued Detroit. Lack of jobs, increased spending on government assistance, displacement from urban renewal, growth of suburbia, race riots, etc. Yet none of those cities suffered a population decline over two or three decades as seen in Detroit. None of those other cities were so heavily dependent on manufacturing...and the resulting jobs in supportive industries.

After leaving Detroit we lived in a smaller city that also experienced race riots. We lost our neighborhood and rental house to a freeway, and moved to the suburbs. My parents still had their jobs in the city. Had they not had jobs, we would have been forced into public housing.

If you're looking for agreement that long term dependency on public assistance, unemployment and corrupt city management destroys families and increases hopelessness - I've stated many times I believe that to be true.

In this case, I don't know if the egg came before the chicken - but I do know - without one we wouldn't have the other.

 

[GaryDog]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

 

[GaryDog]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

 

[GaryDog]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

Nope. But it could have been if the government had stayed out of it once they put down segregation and the Jim Crow laws.

 

[GaryDog]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

Nope. But it could have been if the government had stayed out of it once they put down segregation and the Jim Crow laws.

Actually it was the federal government LEAVING the south that truly contributed to the decline of the treatment of black people in the south between 1870 and the 1930s. Rutherford B Hayes took the last of the federal troops out and a black person in the south wasn't elected to congress for another 120 years.

But if you are referring to government intervention in the form of Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, voter literacy tests, etc., then yes, govt intervention worsened the plight of blacks in the south.

 

[Andylusion]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

So the fact that x number of people are white in a given position proves white privilege?

How many people applied for those positions? How many of those who applied were black? How many of those blacks were as qualified, or more qualified than the people in those positions?

This is like miners underground, being mostly men. Must be male privilege. How many women even applied for a job as a miner 10 miles underground? Zero. But clearly it proves male privilege.

We have to go find some women, force them to be miners, and only then can we rid ourselves of the fictional injustice of male privilege.

Again, this reminds me of this radio show, where a caller, we assume black, called in and said he could prove the show host was racist. Just tell me how many on your staff are black? Zero, now ask how many black people applied for a job working for me.

At which point the caller said "It's your job to make sure you hire blacks!"

As if the show host was going to run around asking random black people if they could work for him, just so he could convince others that there wasn't 'white privilege' at his radio show.

I'm sorry, but white privilege is just made up crap.

I make $23,000 a year. If I'm lucky. Please explain to me how I have white privilege, and how I'm better off because of it? It certainly hasn't granted to me any benefits that I can see. Where's my new car? Where my silver spoon? Where's all my stuff?

 

[Andylusion]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

 

[Foxfyre]

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

Nope. But it could have been if the government had stayed out of it once they put down segregation and the Jim Crow laws.

Actually it was the federal government LEAVING the south that truly contributed to the decline of the treatment of black people in the south between 1870 and the 1930s. Rutherford B Hayes took the last of the federal troops out and a black person in the south wasn't elected to congress for another 120 years.

But if you are referring to government intervention in the form of Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, voter literacy tests, etc., then yes, govt intervention worsened the plight of blacks in the south.

No, that was not what I was referring to. Read the OP again. Read McWhorter's essay. THAT is what I am commenting on.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

 

[Andylusion]

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

 

[Correll]

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

Pretty much PERFECTLY said.

 

[GaryDog]

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

For the most part, that is true for those born in America. Or sometimes it involves the choices your parents made. But the white privilege McWhorter cites as referenced and linked in the OP:

Excerpted from the OP:

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else.​

But assigning black people to a 'victim class' no matter how many decades they have to go back to do it, is cruel and insensitive IMO because no matter how much a black person excels, he/she can never quite shake being set apart because he/she is 'black'.

Again, "privilege" implies that there is some sort of special advantage.

"freedom not easily available to others"

Name it? Where is this magical freedom I have, that no one else does? I'd like to know. Because I've have not found it in my life.

By the way, the Asians that come here, and out perform, and have higher incomes, and higher standards of living than white Americans routinely..... if we have white privilege, and all this freedom they don't.... how are they out performing us by every measure?

"You can under perform without it being ascribed to your race"

So what? When I was working at the dealership, I sucked as a mechanic. It wasn't ascribe to my race. True. Do tell... how did that help when I was paid less than any other mechanic, including the black mechanics? Where was this privilege? It surely didn't show up in my pay check. Nor did it show up in promotions. Where was it hiding? By the way, two white guys were fired for not performing well, and the black mechanics were still there when I left. Where was their white privilege?

"And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it."

So what? We have an IT specialists hired by our company that does all the networking repairs across the entire district. Maybe someone thinks it's Affirmative Action, or not... I don't know. But what difference does that make, when he earn as much in one month, as I do in a year? How could my white privilege allow that to happen? Where is my magic better income?

"Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence"

Again.... so what?? How does this help me? I was trained by a Mexican who makes more money than I do, and I'm white as a sheet, and so is the boss who hired me. Yet the Mexican makes a ton more money than I do. Not only that, but he found a new job, making more, than the more he was already making where I work. Where is my privilege? Where's my advantage?

"No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else."

Class discussion? Are we even talking about real life? I haven't had a "class discussion" about anything, in 20 years. And even if they did expect you to represent your race or whatever..... that would an advantage. People actually want to know your opinion, and value your input, as opposed to another random white guy. No one asks my opinion on anything. The value of my opinion is zero. The value of the black guys opinion, is high, because he's black.

Wouldn't that be the opposite of white privilege?

Again... there is no white privilege. A white stoner, who doesn't show up to work on time, and is lousy at his job, will not magically have an advantage over the black guy, because he's black.

A black guy that shows up on time, all the time, works, and works effectively and with skill... will absolutely be rewarded, and paid accordingly. White privilege is a moronic myth.

Yeah, maybe you get the whole "well he only got the job because he's black".... that does happen. But that has absolutely no effect whatsoever on your ability to succeed. If you are good, moral, ethical, and skilled at what you do, you'll be successful.

Every man that shows up at the job, has to prove himself useful to everyone. I have had that to. At this job, people were extremely skeptical of me. My being white, didn't give me a free pass, or immunity.

The only difference between me, and a black guy is.... I understand they are simply skeptical of new people. An American black guy would start crying and whining about "white privilege".

And I mention American intentionally, because when you get black guys from other countries, they don't have this attitude. When people are skeptical of them, they simply say "I'll prove myself to them" and then do so.

We have this tiny little brown girl from Napal right now. And I absolutely adore her, not because she cute (she married anyway), but simply because of her attitude. She comes in "I don't know nothing, but you show me, I'll learn" in her broken English. AND SHE DOES.

You get one of these Americans, and you try and show them something and they give you this "You are making me do lame stuff because I'm black!". No, you are new, don't know jack, and I'm training you on the easy crap first.

I'm sorry. I completely 100% reject this BS white privilege notion. There's an attitude privilege. A work ethic privilege. A morality, and honesty privilege. There's a learning how to speak without cursing privilege even. But there is no white privilege. It is a myth. A fabrication. If not an outright intentional LIE. Period.

Indeed, few people of color probably applied for such jobs because white privilege goes all the way back to the womb. Thanks to centuries of institutional racism, black people are less likely to receive prenatal care, more likely to be born poor, more likely to be born to a single parent, more likely to end up in foster care, more likely to die young from violence, more likely to go hungry, more likely to go to underperforming schools, more likely to have no support at home during the school years, more likely to have unstable home life resulting in changing schools frequently and resulting in poor performance, more likely to have less access to reproductive/sex education and thus become a parent young, and also more likely to be incarcerated for nonviolent drug crimes even though whites commit such crimes at just as high a rate. Then at that point, blacks have almost no shot at obtaining gainful employment, affording higher education, or even graduating high school (which makes them unqualified for CEO jobs, university admisssion, etc).

You assign it to traits of the black race. Cussing more? Lazy? No morality? Bad attitude? And you expect me not to call that racism? Please.

So, yes, the fact that few apply is representative of your privilege. The fact that you appear to be dissatisfied with your own life could be a result of any number of factors. Sure, some white people suffer from all these same things. But it's definitely not their whiteness holding them back. You make $23k per year? My guess is you're not terribly educated. HS diploma at best? Maybe some community college? I'm not surprised you're ignorant of white privilege. It's not supposed to be read as "white people dont suffer". Fact is, they don't suffer BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE.

 

[GaryDog]

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

Nope. But it could have been if the government had stayed out of it once they put down segregation and the Jim Crow laws.

Actually it was the federal government LEAVING the south that truly contributed to the decline of the treatment of black people in the south between 1870 and the 1930s. Rutherford B Hayes took the last of the federal troops out and a black person in the south wasn't elected to congress for another 120 years.

But if you are referring to government intervention in the form of Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, voter literacy tests, etc., then yes, govt intervention worsened the plight of blacks in the south.

No, that was not what I was referring to. Read the OP again. Read McWhorter's essay. THAT is what I am commenting on.

I read the essay. I'm giving you historical reference. This goes back to the south disenfranchising blacks from 1700 until 1965. That's far more impactful than 25 or so years of HUD.

 

[GaryDog]

Not sure if this completely derailed from White Privilege or not, but I think the first mistake any colleges make is in labeling their classes "white privilege 101" or some iteration.

This is about HISTORY. Awareness of white privilege is about awareness of the fact that the white race has had almost total control of all of the country's private and public institutions of power, wealth and education, and this fact has had an effect on the ability of people of color to succeed.

A lot of people will point to Ben Carson's story as proof that blacks have no hurdles. I point to it as prove that they do. When a black person from poverty makes it, it spawns a TV movie, a book, and national acclaim. Exceptions prove the rule.

That's one way to look at it. But the fact is most of the voluntary immigrants to the U.S. were from Europe and therefore some shade of white--Spanish, British, and from various countries from the contiguous European continent. Even the contentiousness of the Texans war with Mexico to achieve autonomy meant that most Mexicans in Texas went to Mexico leaving mostly people of European descent in Texas when it joined the union.

These are the people that built and settled most of the country.

So we still have the chicken/egg situation. Did white people prosper because they were mostly white? Or is the fact they happened to be mostly white immaterial to the success they had.

Nobody denies that black Americans started out at as disadvantage once they were allowed to be Americans post Civil War. But that was 151+ years ago and they were rapidly overcoming their disadvantage. They were the most rapidly advancing group economically right up to the Great society when segregation ended in 1964. And all that was more than a half century ago.
And then that began to change as government got more and more involved.

Desegregation did open a lot of doors for black people and Affirmative Action was necessary to break down the cultural barriers. But once that was accomplished, Affirmative Action should have been discontinued so that black people would be able to sink and swim on their own merit and thus be seen as full citizens rather than wards of the government.

McWhorter discusses that eloquently in the piece cited in the OP.

Ben Carson is by no means an exception. I can think of dozens of black people that have excelled in their fields right off the top of my head. And that doesn't count the people I know personally. Or the vast majority that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head.

The white privilege cited by McWhorter is real. But we sure don't need college classes that have no clue about that McWhorter identifies.

I need to correct you in your history there. The black inclusion in society after slavery actually got worse, not better, particularly in the south. True, during reconstruction many blacks were elected to congress, however after union troops left, the southern states instituted a slew of racist Jim Crow laws and voting restrictions that completely destroyed any political progress blacks had made up until that point. The nadir for race relations was closer to the 1890-1920 era. That's when it was at its worst. FDR's poverty programs helped, and the civil rights era brought blacks into full citizenship for the first time in 1965. So essentially we've had 1 or 2 generations of progress to undo over 300 years of black slavery, genocide, force-pressing, destruction of culture, and disenfranchisement in this country. That's not gonna cut it. Affirmative action programs also were not just about a head start for black people. They were for the betterment of education as a whole to diversify the student body. Per the Supreme Court anyway.

I didn't say Carson was the only success story. But he's one of the very few. statistically? Blacks are underrepresented in all areas of professional education, CEO representation, and political office. Still.

I know the history of the trouble spots and also the experience of the vast majority of black people. I just see it differently because I've read Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others who have studied it extensively and tell it like it is.

There's nothing to "see differently". There's facts, and there's opinion. It has not been 151 years of forward progress for blacks.

90% of where you are, and the situation you are in, is the choices you have made.

Really? What town were you born in? My guess is you're within 200 miles of it. What level of education do you have? My guess is it is similar to one or both of your parents. What is your income? If your parents aren't millionaires, I doubt you are, either.

According to census info, nearly 60 percent of people reside in the state in which they were born: https://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acsbr10-07.pdf

That can have a big influence on who you become. Your circumstances of birth, and yes, your race.
People born in Malaysia stay there. People born in Texas tend to live there as adults. Your life is largely predicted at birth, as a whole. Sure, there are outliers which I know you'll jump to cite, but they're called "outliers" for a reason. Most of us are born to mediocre people and live mediocre lives. That's just social science.

Do you really think Eric and Donald Trump Jr earned their $300M net worth entirely brought net worth and effort? No. They were born into riches. Let's try another one you'll agree with: you think Chelsea Clinton was a national correspondent for NBC news because of her own hard work and skill as a journalist? No, it's because of who her parents are. I could go on and on.