White House, Dems Finalize Deal for Automaker Bailout

[WillowTree]

That was perfect .. and if the automakers are allowed to fail, those words will become a mantra throughout this country.

thanks

what the hell is this "allowed to fail" shit? what if they fail?? how many times you gonna bail theirs asses out?? you can't force people to buy your shitty products. allowed to fail my ass. typical buzz words and talking points

 

[editec]

This whole depression scenario is nothing more that a scare tactic. What happens if GM don’t survive AFTER we loan them this money and they can’t pay it back?

Now THAT is an excellent question, in my never humble opinion.

And it is an excellent question because the likelihood that simply saving GM and Chrysler is going to dramtically change the economic climate is rather remote.

Thos companies are going down because the economic climate is killing them.

Yes, they have their own problems, but they were not going broke until the economy collapsed.

So fixing them, but not fixing the root source of the economic collapse probably won't help much.

Of course if they went down, then the economy would get much much worse much more quickly, but saving them doesn't do jackshit about the REAL problems that are plaguing this nation.

Once I built a railroad, I made it run,
made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad; now it's done.
Brother, can you spare a dime?

Once I built a tower, up to the sun,
brick, and rivet, and lime;
Once I built a tower, now it's done.
Brother, can you spare a dime?

Brother, Can You Spare a Dime," lyrics by Yip Harburg, music by Jay Gorney (1931)

 

[WillowTree]

A right-winger .. "stop using fear tactics"



Damn this board is funny.

You mean millions of American workers suddenly out of work facing an environment where there is little work to be had .. that's "fear tactics?"

OK

OK is right,, it dosen't matter how much money you throw at this fucked up problem,, the unions have priced your asses right outta work,, that's not the taxpayers problem it's your's if you've been stupid enough to pay union dues all these years..

 

[WillowTree]

Sharing this with Willow is a waste of time so I thought I'd share it with you. See, GOP is evil!!!!

Congress Bails Out Those Who Shower before Work, but Not Those Who Shower after Work
Right-wing Republicans and conservative pundits have made it clear they want Federal aid denied to the Big Three so that the firms go bankrupt. Then the companies can renege on pensions they guaranteed to retirees and can break salary and benefit promises to workers in current contracts.
They want the unions broken. They want retirees’ benefits slashed and union workers’ wages and benefits cut, which, of course, will enable the foreign auto makers — whose U.S. plants are non-union — to reduce their wages. It’ll be an all-American race to the bottom, rather than the preferable opposite, where workers and retirees are treated with dignity and respect for their hard labor.
None of those conservatives, however, is calling for Citigroup’s Charles O. Prince III, who took down Citigroup at a cost of untold billions to taxpayers, to return his $1.7 million pension, office and car and driver.
Sen. Richard Shelby, the ranking Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, said, for example, “I do not support the use of U.S. taxpayer dollars to reward the mismanagement of Detroit-based auto manufacturers.”
Shelby, of course, has a lot to lose if Michigan does well. His home state of Alabama gave HUGE tax breaks to foreign car companies Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Hyundai to locate factories there — hardly a free market approach.
When the representatives of blue collars went to Congress hat in hand, lawmakers insisted that to get loans automakers would have to present viable business plans. Congress didn’t impose similar conditions, however, when Bernanke and Paulson went to Congress seeking grants for reckless white collar firms.

For the whole thing go to:
The Hill Blog» Blog Archive » Congress Bails Out Those Who Shower before Work, but Not Those Who Shower after Work

If Michigan does well??? Why the hell hasn't Michigan done well? doyathink???

 

[WillowTree]

I'll answer that for ya... most of America's work force is doing exactly what you guys are doing.. frittering away your work time on a message board and charging your employee's for work not done.. cry me a river. and you want dignity..

 

[xsited1]

Here's a Libertarian perspective if anyone is interested:

Say No to the Auto Bailout

General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and the United Auto Workers union are pouring millions of dollars into a lobbying campaign for a taxpayer bailout.

The money devoted to influence peddling in Washington would be better spent on improving quality and finding ways to reduce a bloated cost structure, but both management and UAW have decided that fleecing taxpayers is a better option.

A taxpayer bailout would be a terrible mistake. It would subsidize the shoddy management practices of the corporate bureaucrats at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, and it would reward the intransigent union bosses who have made the UAW synonymous with inflexible and anti-competitive work rules.

Perhaps most important, though, is that a bailout would be bad for the long-term health of the American auto industry. It would discriminate against the 113,000 Americans who have highly-coveted jobs building cars for Nissan, BMW and other auto companies that happen to be headquartered in other nations.

...

A bailout will hurt the overall economy by misallocating resources
A bailout will encourage other industries to seek taxpayer handouts
A bailout is a perverse transfer from poor taxpayers to rich taxpayers

More Here

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Now THAT is an excellent question, in my never humble opinion.

And it is an excellent question because the likelihood that simply saving GM and Chrysler is going to dramtically change the economic climate is rather remote.

Thos companies are going down because the economic climate is killing them.

Yes, they have their own problems, but they were not going broke until the economy collapsed.

So fixing them, but not fixing the root source of the economic collapse probably won't help much.

Of course if they went down, then the economy would get much much worse much more quickly, but saving them doesn't do jackshit about the REAL problems that are plaguing this nation.



Brother, Can You Spare a Dime," lyrics by Yip Harburg, music by Jay Gorney (1931)

I agree with that as well .. but then again, that's true of the American business model in general.

Perhaps it's time to consider nationalized industries.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

OK is right,, it dosen't matter how much money you throw at this fucked up problem,, the unions have priced your asses right outta work,, that's not the taxpayers problem it's your's if you've been stupid enough to pay union dues all these years..

"OK" meant, it's OK if you believe that bullshit .. not OK you're right.

Does AIG have unions?

Merrill/Lynch .. they have unions?

How are their products doing?

... you funny.

 

[xsited1]

...
Thos companies are going down because the economic climate is killing them.
...

There's a lot more to it than that.

"In the year 2007, GM sold 9.3 million automobiles and lost $38 Billion dollars. In 2007 Toyota sold 9.3 million automobiles and made a profit of $17 Billion dollars. Seems to me that throwing more money at the situation or creating a "Car Czar" isn't the answer. Only Chapter 11 re-organization will save GM. Everyone from the top to the bottom is going to have to re-group, would you rather have 70% of something or 100% of nothing, pretty tough choices need to be made, by everyone."
Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma

 

[BlackAsCoal]

I'll answer that for ya... most of America's work force is doing exactly what you guys are doing.. frittering away your work time on a message board and charging your employee's for work not done.. cry me a river. and you want dignity..

Some of us get to do both things at the same time .. and the empolyers don't care .. in fact, they encourage it.

.. sue me

 

[NOBama]

Some of us get to do both things at the same time .. and the empolyers don't care .. in fact, they encourage it.

.. sue me

UNBELIEVABLE

 

[WillowTree]

Some of us get to do both things at the same time .. and the empolyers don't care .. in fact, they encourage it.

.. sue me

nope! no sue you,, but no sympathy to your plight either..

 

[Southpaw]

Irrespective of your flawed comment .. a depression WILL be the taxpayers problem.

I would rather have one depression now that establish a pattern of government bailing out wasteful and bloated companies who need to be left to die.

A bailout now just ensures that this problem will endure and grow.

Letting them die now means we will go through a rough patch and afterward, we will have a level playing field for competitive and decent companies to rise.

 

[sealybobo]

IMO, the country isn’t going to go into a depression if GM goes into chapter 11, although that’s what many a DC insider would like us to believe. The fact of the matter is, chapter 11 was designed specifically for the purpose of corporate reorganization.

I’ve not heard one valid argument as to why DC wants to abandon current laws and procedures. Could it be that a lot of politicians are indebted to the company or even the UAW? Ya think?

“Loaning” money to save jobs is the most ridiculous thing I’ve even heard of and to date, I’ve not heard one valid argument as to why GM can’t take the Chapter 11 route, which was designed for this purpose. I heard a good one on the news yesterday; some senator (don’t recall who) reasoned that “other countries are doing it”. Simply outrageous.

Loaning money to GM in order for them to become solvent any time soon is akin to believing in clean coal technology, IMO.

This whole depression scenario is nothing more that a scare tactic. What happens if GM don’t survive AFTER we loan them this money and they can’t pay it back? The way I see it, he risk of lending it to them by far exceeds the risk of NOT lending it to them.

Why is it ok to give Toyota 6 Billion dollars in federal tax dollars to come to Alabama and set up shop to compete with the American car companies?

The only reason we don't boot Toyota and Honda out of the country is that they employ thousands of people.

The same reason we won't let the Big 3 fail. They employ even more Americans.

You have heard valid arguments. YOu just don't believe them.

I don't beleive we needed to bail out the banks either. But we did. $750 billion. So now you want to get tight with the purse strings? They only want $25 million. And the Big 3 definately can take down the economy. Your tiny little brain just can't understand it.

 

[sealybobo]

If Michigan does well??? Why the hell hasn't Michigan done well? doyathink???

Ford had huge profits in 1999. What happened in 2000? Bush stole the White House.

And 43 other states are hurting badly. Why?

Bushanomics. You know that.

 

[editec]

There's a lot more to it than that.

"In the year 2007, GM sold 9.3 million automobiles and lost $38 Billion dollars. In 2007 Toyota sold 9.3 million automobiles and made a profit of $17 Billion dollars. Seems to me that throwing more money at the situation or creating a "Car Czar" isn't the answer. Only Chapter 11 re-organization will save GM. Everyone from the top to the bottom is going to have to re-group, would you rather have 70% of something or 100% of nothing, pretty tough choices need to be made, by everyone."
Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma

Yeah, understood.

You realize, don't you, that the UAW has already given up those super high salaries, right?

Look, I personally believe that the USA taxpayer should be BUYING these companies outright, and then remachining them to become the producers of GREENER autos that their bloated managment failed to do in the last thirty years.

Their capitalization values is less than what they need to keep going so why the hell shouldn't we just nationalize them if we're going to pay to keep them alive?

But the problem iwht this discussion is that we cannot just parce out the problems of the auto industry from all the other systemic problems we have allowed to develop.

Free trade is a disaster for this nation as it is for EVERY nation sooner or later.

All our nation's industries will sooner or later face the same problems.

I no more want my nation to bail out these industries than I wanted them to bail out the bankers, but ....

in for apenny, in for a pound, amigo.

Since they're not going to fix the REAL problem, they're just going to keep making it worse.

But the problem we have right now is liquidity, not inflation.

The PEOPLE of the USA lost how many TRILLIONS in real estate and the market in the last years?

We are headed toward a depression and if there's suddently 2-10 million people ALSO out of work, that depression is going to effect you just as harshly as it is going to effect a machinist working for Chrysler.

We have GOT to get more money into circulation to stave off the vicious cycle of DEFLATION.

 

[sealybobo]

I would rather have one depression now that establish a pattern of government bailing out wasteful and bloated companies who need to be left to die.

A bailout now just ensures that this problem will endure and grow.

Letting them die now means we will go through a rough patch and afterward, we will have a level playing field for competitive and decent companies to rise.

See, you don't realize this was all caused by the GOP from 2000-2006. All the facts are coming out now about exactly who/how the economy got fucked. Yes Freddy & Fanny had something to do with it. Who was in charge of them from 2003-2005? If you look, you'll see it was Bush appointees/buddies.

So now the Big 3 need a loan, not a gimme, just to get them through this rough time. They wouldn't have needed it had the Bushies not raised gas to $4 and forced SUV's to become unpopular.

Or do you still doubt they were gouging us when gas went up past $4? Wake up.

Anyways, the GOP is gone. We have GOP'ers who lost in November voting on this. THey are bitter. THey want to finish ruining the American middle class.

You are just still in shock. 8 years of being mind fucked by the GOP thru the media. Relax, the Dems have it all under control. The Big 3 will be back, unfair trade will be fixed, and your job will be safe.

And again, did you bitch this much when Bush demanded $750billion or else? Probably not. Or, your dumb ass blames the Democrats for the bank bailout, doesn't it?

 

[Southpaw]

Ford had huge profits in 1999. What happened in 2000? Bush stole the White House.

And 43 other states are hurting badly. Why?

Bushanomics. You know that.

Bush has had two economic 'occurrences' on his watch. The tech bubble and the gas/credit crisis.

The tech bubble was caused by the advent of a new form of commerce in which individual investors got caught up in the 'there's always a bigger fool somewhere' philosophy of stock purchasing. Clearly not Bush's fault.

The gas/credit crisis was caused by exploding world demand for oil (China's doubled from 2000-2007) combined with a refusal on the left to drill domestically (thanks Mr. It-Will-Take-10-Years Clinton) and reduced regulations on the housing market. That, incidentally, was championed by WJC and continued by guys like Dodd and Frank. Bush tried to implement oversight on FNM and FRE in 2003 but was shot down... by the Dems.

I'll grant you that Bush has spent like a drunken sailor on leave in a whorehouse while cutting taxes which is a great way to run up the deficit. I'll grant you that some of his fiscal policies devalued the dollar which hit us even harder at the gas pumps since gas is a global economy.

However, the big factors in these two economic whatevers are clearly not tied to Bush.

 

[sealybobo]

Here's a Libertarian perspective if anyone is interested:

Say No to the Auto Bailout

General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and the United Auto Workers union are pouring millions of dollars into a lobbying campaign for a taxpayer bailout.

The money devoted to influence peddling in Washington would be better spent on improving quality and finding ways to reduce a bloated cost structure, but both management and UAW have decided that fleecing taxpayers is a better option.

A taxpayer bailout would be a terrible mistake. It would subsidize the shoddy management practices of the corporate bureaucrats at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, and it would reward the intransigent union bosses who have made the UAW synonymous with inflexible and anti-competitive work rules.

Perhaps most important, though, is that a bailout would be bad for the long-term health of the American auto industry. It would discriminate against the 113,000 Americans who have highly-coveted jobs building cars for Nissan, BMW and other auto companies that happen to be headquartered in other nations.

...

A bailout will hurt the overall economy by misallocating resources
A bailout will encourage other industries to seek taxpayer handouts
A bailout is a perverse transfer from poor taxpayers to rich taxpayers

More Here

But it's not a bailout, it's a loan. And Washington has given GM and Chrysler incentive to pay it back early. 5% interest if paid back quick, something like 8-10% if not paid back asap.

The Libertarians are too much like the GOP for me to like them. They make good points, but in the end, I'm not interested in a every man for himself society.

 

[WillowTree]

Why is it ok to give Toyota 6 Billion dollars in federal tax dollars to come to Alabama and set up shop to compete with the American car companies?

The only reason we don't boot Toyota and Honda out of the country is that they employ thousands of people.

The same reason we won't let the Big 3 fail. They employ even more Americans.

You have heard valid arguments. YOu just don't believe them.

I don't beleive we needed to bail out the banks either. But we did. $750 billion. So now you want to get tight with the purse strings? They only want $25 million. And the Big 3 definately can take down the economy. Your tiny little brain just can't understand it.

oh really? only 25 million? and you call his brain tiny?