When Tuition is INSANELY HIGH, UNAFFORDABLE, why is the conversation...

[blastoff]

Not at all surprising that the same people that advocate a health care system that pays twice as much for inferior results also believe that making higher education unafffordable to a high percentage of American citizens is also a good thing.

Can you please quote someone who has said making higher education unafffordable to a high percentage of American citizens is a good thing.

Not really any of my business but I think it was the same guy who blabbed that all Republicans want dirty air and water for everyone in the world to consume.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

My daughter has now went 3 1/2 years and will just begin her actual degree work this fall. After attending summer classes of course...just like last year..and the year before that.
She goes to a well respected school that ranks 3rd in the country for what she is going for.
But there is a little number that the school doesn't like to talk about. A number shared by universities country-wide.
35% graduation rate.

Let's get into how this happened. What school is she attending and what is her major? I'd like to see the catalog entry as most have a 4 year plan in place if you're graduating with a BS or a BA.

EDIT: That sounds meaner than I meant to sound. Let me clarify:

If you'd told me 2 years ago that it was taking a student 5+ years to get a BS or BA, I'd have been very sympathetic. I've seen some truly stupid degree plans in the past years.

However, in the last 2 years the problem of time to graduation has become a HUGE focus in a lot places. I know that in our State we were told in no uncertain terms to get the 4 year degree plan down to 120 hours or else. There are exceptions for degree plans that needed more to satisfy an accrediting body (which is a whole other issue), but I've seen the 4 year degree plans slashed down to 120.

Since that's happened, I've been less sympathetic. 120 in four years is completely do-able. You can easily get some AP credit in Math and English with a decent SAT and ACT score. Many schools offer advanced placement foreign language testing if a student has had a foreign language in high school. Smart, well prepared kids can effectively start the first day of college with a whole semester's worth of credit easily.

The problem consistently comes from students who aren't prepared or don't take college seriously. If at the end of your first year you have less than 24 earned credits, you're doomed. And realistically, if that happens you have no one to blame but yourself for that.

 

[uscitizen]

Its interesting to note that public funding in many states for the Universities is being cut off or drastically reduced. Over the last 5 years my University has lost around 5-7 million dollars of funding from the State.

We've cute just about everything that can be cut, frozen salaries for the last 5 years (no cost of living raises even), and we'll start firing faculty and staff and closing programs. Yet if we raise tuition to cover the lost funding, people go ABSOLUTELY F'ING CRAZY!

The math is pretty simple. If the States refuse to fund the schools, the schools will have to find a way to raise money. That means increased tuition.

Yep Ironic isn't it that the very ones that complain about govt spending are now complaining about the effects of reducing that spending.

Idjits cannot see beyond the top layer.

 

[catzmeow]

This comes from the mindset of a father who has 3 kids and one on the way. The rising cost of college keeps me up most nights!

I think you're including housing, meals, books, and fees in to your figure. Tuition at any of the state universities in Florida is around $6k for a full-time student for in-state tuition, per year. However, when you add in the other costs (housing, meals, books, fees), it comes closer to $20k a year.

 

[WorldWatcher]

4 Year Degree??? There is no such thing as a four year degree any more.

Yes, but not for the reason you think. Check the college catalogs. Every program is required to submit to the catalog a 4 year plan for every single BS or BA I've seen.

The problem is that students are coming in needing more an more remedial classes, and many programs are assuming that a student who will graduate in 4 years will start at the very least in Pre-Calculus, if not Calculus. On top of that, to graduate in 4 years a student needs to average at least 15 credits a semester. Many students simply won't rack up that many credits due to poor study habits, outside time commitments, athletics, etc.

I do see many students take longer than 4 years sadly, but most of the time if that happens I can look at their transcripts and see they came in under prepared or did not take early semesters seriously.

Yep, my daughter will be graduating with a Mathematics degree next year. She prep'ed for college in high school with honors classes and AP classes for science, history, government, math (including Calculus AB and BC??? IIRC).

She'll finish in 4-years without a problem class wise. With ROTC and Debate she often finds herself short on time but stays focused and works hard. I think her GPA right now is like 3.95.


>>>>

 

[Claudette]

Can you please quote someone who has said making higher education unafffordable to a high percentage of American citizens is a good thing.

I can quote one of your party representatives that said, "President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob."

No you can't.

Says a lot, doesn't it?

I don't think that makes Obama a snob, but I do disagree with the president's view. Everybody in America going to college would be foolish. Everyone going to college would result in a massive surplus of college degrees that would render them utterly useless, thus negating the whole point of going in the first place.

What we need is to get more people into vocational and trade schools because that is what we are facing a shortage of right now.

Gotta agree.

All those college educated folks, except for the very best, would be unemployed. Too many college degrees and not enough jobs.

Trade school, plumbers, electricians, mechanics and any other trades you can learn are the way to go. Good money and jobs that are always in demand.

Had a plumber or electrician at your house lately?? What did he charge for his services??

 

[Flopper]

...birth control costs??? The cheapest (meaning least expensive) IL STATE college costs minimum $30K a year! Most schools are well beyond that. Four years equals up tp $120K at the MINIMUM! This is a 2nd first mortgage! Going to college is becoming essential to landing a decent job, but going to college is becoming unaffordable to everyone except the upper middle class or upper class!

Yet people want to talk about the affordable birth control options. First, NO plan covers condoms and condoms are the only form of birth control that prevents STDs. If you are sleeping around in college, or anywhere for that matter, then condoms should be used not the pills (or just the pill). Even if the person a has boyfriend (or girlfriend) in college they should use condoms. You don't know what your partner is doing. Be honest how many of you were loyal to your college (or even highschool), girl or boyfriends? I can honestly say I wasn't loyal to any of them! I guarantee I wasn't the only one! The pill might prevent you from getting knocked up (or knocking someone up), but it won't prevent you from getting AIDS, HERPS etc. Second, what is $9 a month, when tuition costs $3K-$5K a month! Where are the priorities. Maybe this spoiled girl should get, I don't know, a job in college!

This comes from the mindset of a father who has 3 kids and one on the way. The rising cost of college keeps me up most nights!

Walk through any of the wealthier university’s athletic departments and you’ll see what money can buy. State-of-the-art everything: pools, gyms, stadiums, the whole gamut. Plus all those luxurious dorm rooms, media facilities, lecture halls, eating amenities, etc. They all want to draw in customers and what better way to do it than with lots of eye-popping candy that shines and sparkles. Then there's the large salaries for big name talent who spend most of their time in research and writing, not in the classroom. Education is becoming a sideline in many of our schools. All that's needed is a classroom and a good teacher. Universities and colleges need to wake up and get back to the business of teaching.

IMHO, a better choice is two years in a good community college and a transfer to a 4 year school. In my job, I have hired many college graduates over the years. I've found that the name of school you graduate from is most important with your first job. After that, your experience, skills, and contacts are far more important than where you got your degree. Of course there's snob appeal for graduates of a few schools such as Harvard or Yale, but those are the exceptions not the rule.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but two points

Then there's the large salaries for big name talent who spend most of their time in research and writing, not in the classroom.

The "big name talent" usually is hired with the expectation of bringing in sufficient grant money to offset salary. I know that at the R1 (Research heavy) institutions, you do NOT get tenure these days if you do not bring in grant money amounts larger than your salary.

So, the big name talent is typically "free" in a sense. The advantage to having the big names is that even if they can't or don't teach, they typically take on graduate students or mentor students interested in their area of expertise.

Where I went to grad school, there was a brilliant Math professor that was a notoriously bad teacher. I took a class from him and learned almost nothing. However, if you worked with him his expertise in cryptology and modern encoding methods typically meant a six figure salary after graduation with one of the many firms that hired him as a consultant. For the University, he was worth his weight in gold as a professor.

IMHO, a better choice is two years in a good community college and a transfer to a 4 year school.

As a Professor, this is not my experience. You get some good kids from the Community College, but for a variety of reasons the majority are under prepared for actual college work. I've seen a whole lot more grade inflation at the community college level than anywhere else. My personal pet peeve is the students that are so numerically illiterate that they can barely add who fail College Algebra on campus semester after semester "magically" getting an A when they head out to the community college. Sure. I believe that. Especially when they come back for their next math course and do worse.

 

[Unkotare]

Plenty of students still complete an undergraduate degree in four years, just as plenty of students still enroll in college because they are 'supposed to,' and then drop out after a year or two.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

4 Year Degree??? There is no such thing as a four year degree any more.

Yes, but not for the reason you think. Check the college catalogs. Every program is required to submit to the catalog a 4 year plan for every single BS or BA I've seen.

The problem is that students are coming in needing more an more remedial classes, and many programs are assuming that a student who will graduate in 4 years will start at the very least in Pre-Calculus, if not Calculus. On top of that, to graduate in 4 years a student needs to average at least 15 credits a semester. Many students simply won't rack up that many credits due to poor study habits, outside time commitments, athletics, etc.

I do see many students take longer than 4 years sadly, but most of the time if that happens I can look at their transcripts and see they came in under prepared or did not take early semesters seriously.

No.
My daughter was a 3.8 high school student.
She is seeking a degree for Respiratory Specialist.
Classes she was/is required to take:
Calculus
Finite Math
Computer Basics
Computer 1 (where they are teaching Microsoft Access...EVERYONE knows respiratory therapist build databases every day)
Physics 1
Chemistry 1
Public Speaking
Psychiatry 1

I know I am forgetting some.
This is horse shit.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

4 Year Degree??? There is no such thing as a four year degree any more.

Yes, but not for the reason you think. Check the college catalogs. Every program is required to submit to the catalog a 4 year plan for every single BS or BA I've seen.

The problem is that students are coming in needing more an more remedial classes, and many programs are assuming that a student who will graduate in 4 years will start at the very least in Pre-Calculus, if not Calculus. On top of that, to graduate in 4 years a student needs to average at least 15 credits a semester. Many students simply won't rack up that many credits due to poor study habits, outside time commitments, athletics, etc.

I do see many students take longer than 4 years sadly, but most of the time if that happens I can look at their transcripts and see they came in under prepared or did not take early semesters seriously.

No.
My daughter was a 3.8 high school student.
She is seeking a degree for Respiratory Specialist.
Classes she was/is required to take:
Calculus
Finite Math
Computer Basics
Computer 1 (where they are teaching Microsoft Access...EVERYONE knows respiratory therapist build databases every day)
Physics 1
Chemistry 1
Public Speaking
Psychiatry 1

I know I am forgetting some.
This is horse shit.

Where? Like I said, I'd like to see the academic catalog, which usually contains a degree plan. If she's getting a degree that's more advanced than a BS or BA, then yeah, it'll take more than 4 years. It sounds like she may be in a pre-Professional program.

The Courses you listed shouldn't be more than 30 credits total by the way. You're missing the English Lit and Comp course that most students have to take, unless she tested out, and her History course. Even with that, you're talking about 1.5 years (3 semesters) or so if she took a reasonable load of 15 credits.

 

[Flopper]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but two points

Then there's the large salaries for big name talent who spend most of their time in research and writing, not in the classroom.

The "big name talent" usually is hired with the expectation of bringing in sufficient grant money to offset salary. I know that at the R1 (Research heavy) institutions, you do NOT get tenure these days if you do not bring in grant money amounts larger than your salary.

So, the big name talent is typically "free" in a sense. The advantage to having the big names is that even if they can't or don't teach, they typically take on graduate students or mentor students interested in their area of expertise.

Where I went to grad school, there was a brilliant Math professor that was a notoriously bad teacher. I took a class from him and learned almost nothing. However, if you worked with him his expertise in cryptology and modern encoding methods typically meant a six figure salary after graduation with one of the many firms that hired him as a consultant. For the University, he was worth his weight in gold as a professor.

IMHO, a better choice is two years in a good community college and a transfer to a 4 year school.

As a Professor, this is not my experience. You get some good kids from the Community College, but for a variety of reasons the majority are under prepared for actual college work. I've seen a whole lot more grade inflation at the community college level than anywhere else. My personal pet peeve is the students that are so numerically illiterate that they can barely add who fail College Algebra on campus semester after semester "magically" getting an A when they head out to the community college. Sure. I believe that. Especially when they come back for their next math course and do worse.

In my experience, the quality of students coming from community colleges varies greatly depending on the community college. I taught in a community college in which C work was typically given an A. Latter I attended another community college in order to get undergraduate courses I needed for entry to graduate school. Those classes were as hard as any of my graduate classes and in general had better instructors.

In the two community colleges and two universities, I have attended, I have not seen any relationship between the quality of instruction and the tuition. I’m sure that’s not the case with all schools but I certainly would not pay an extra $50K or $75K to upgrade from the “good school” to the “best school”. I've seen first hand the suffering of young people being saddle with huge debt and low paying jobs.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Its interesting to note that public funding in many states for the Universities is being cut off or drastically reduced. Over the last 5 years my University has lost around 5-7 million dollars of funding from the State.

We've cute just about everything that can be cut, frozen salaries for the last 5 years (no cost of living raises even), and we'll start firing faculty and staff and closing programs. Yet if we raise tuition to cover the lost funding, people go ABSOLUTELY F'ING CRAZY!

The math is pretty simple. If the States refuse to fund the schools, the schools will have to find a way to raise money. That means increased tuition.

Yep Ironic isn't it that the very ones that complain about govt spending are now complaining about the effects of reducing that spending.

Idjits cannot see beyond the top layer.

Here's a thought... how much public funding goes into stupid shit that at the end of the day, produces graduates with zero job potential? You know, Latin Studies, Women's Studies, General Studies, etc. I see what a lot of schools are pumping out and calling "educated"... a lot of dufus' that can barely tie their shoelaces.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

4 Year Degree??? There is no such thing as a four year degree any more.

Yes, but not for the reason you think. Check the college catalogs. Every program is required to submit to the catalog a 4 year plan for every single BS or BA I've seen.

The problem is that students are coming in needing more an more remedial classes, and many programs are assuming that a student who will graduate in 4 years will start at the very least in Pre-Calculus, if not Calculus. On top of that, to graduate in 4 years a student needs to average at least 15 credits a semester. Many students simply won't rack up that many credits due to poor study habits, outside time commitments, athletics, etc.

I do see many students take longer than 4 years sadly, but most of the time if that happens I can look at their transcripts and see they came in under prepared or did not take early semesters seriously.

No.
My daughter was a 3.8 high school student.
She is seeking a degree for Respiratory Specialist.
Classes she was/is required to take:
Calculus
Finite Math
Computer Basics
Computer 1 (where they are teaching Microsoft Access...EVERYONE knows respiratory therapist build databases every day)
Physics 1
Chemistry 1
Public Speaking
Psychiatry 1

I know I am forgetting some.
This is horse shit.

Why would she need calculus? most scientists don't need calculus anymore, computers do the math. they seem to be loading up the required courses to get more money out of students. My guess is that, if people actually had to pay up front for classes, there would be a lot more questions about why some courses are required.

 

[Flopper]

I can quote one of your party representatives that said, "President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob."

No you can't.

Says a lot, doesn't it?

I don't think that makes Obama a snob, but I do disagree with the president's view. Everybody in America going to college would be foolish. Everyone going to college would result in a massive surplus of college degrees that would render them utterly useless, thus negating the whole point of going in the first place.

What we need is to get more people into vocational and trade schools because that is what we are facing a shortage of right now.

Gotta agree.

All those college educated folks, except for the very best, would be unemployed. Too many college degrees and not enough jobs.

Trade school, plumbers, electricians, mechanics and any other trades you can learn are the way to go. Good money and jobs that are always in demand.

Had a plumber or electrician at your house lately?? What did he charge for his services??

Aptitude is a key ingredient in job success. Some people love working with their hands others prefer working with their brain.

 

[Unkotare]

No.
My daughter was a 3.8 high school student.
She is seeking a degree for Respiratory Specialist.
Classes she was/is required to take:
Calculus
Finite Math
Computer Basics
Computer 1 (where they are teaching Microsoft Access...EVERYONE knows respiratory therapist build databases every day)
Physics 1
Chemistry 1
Public Speaking
Psychiatry 1

I know I am forgetting some.
This is horse shit.

Doesn't seem too outrageous.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Yes, but not for the reason you think. Check the college catalogs. Every program is required to submit to the catalog a 4 year plan for every single BS or BA I've seen.

The problem is that students are coming in needing more an more remedial classes, and many programs are assuming that a student who will graduate in 4 years will start at the very least in Pre-Calculus, if not Calculus. On top of that, to graduate in 4 years a student needs to average at least 15 credits a semester. Many students simply won't rack up that many credits due to poor study habits, outside time commitments, athletics, etc.

I do see many students take longer than 4 years sadly, but most of the time if that happens I can look at their transcripts and see they came in under prepared or did not take early semesters seriously.

No.
My daughter was a 3.8 high school student.
She is seeking a degree for Respiratory Specialist.
Classes she was/is required to take:
Calculus
Finite Math
Computer Basics
Computer 1 (where they are teaching Microsoft Access...EVERYONE knows respiratory therapist build databases every day)
Physics 1
Chemistry 1
Public Speaking
Psychiatry 1

I know I am forgetting some.
This is horse shit.

Why would she need calculus? most scientists don't need calculus anymore, computers do the math. they seem to be loading up the required courses to get more money out of students. My guess is that, if people actually had to pay up front for classes, there would be a lot more questions about why some courses are required.

I pay for her classes up front - which is why I have questions about these courses.
I found her pre-reqs...I was wrong about calculus, she took College Math 1, and now College Math II

Here is the complete list of pre-req's
Elementary Composition I
Human Anatomy (with lab)
Social/Behavioral Science
College Math I
Speech Communication
Chemistry (with lab)
Human Physiology (with lab)
College Mathematics II
Professional Writing
Physics
Ethics
Introduction to Computers
Computer I
Statistics
Introduction to Microbiology
Intro to Finite Mathematics
Lifespan/Human Development

 

[Unkotare]

In my experience, the quality of students coming from community colleges varies greatly depending on the community college.

And depending on the student.

 

[Unkotare]

In the two community colleges and two universities, I have attended, I have not seen any relationship between the quality of instruction and the tuition.

The 'name value' of a school is usually a much bigger distinction than the degree of difficulty or the work expected at reasonably comparable schools, but that name value is not an insignificant factor considering the relative benefit later on.


Two students in the same degree program at Harvard or the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign will not be called upon to do any vastly different work (and top grades are likely to be harder to come by at the latter), but upon graduation one 'name' will be significantly more valuable than the other. Consequently, it's a hell of a lot harder to get into Harvard.

 

[Flopper]

In the two community colleges and two universities, I have attended, I have not seen any relationship between the quality of instruction and the tuition.

The 'name value' of a school is usually a much bigger distinction than the degree of difficulty or the work expected at reasonably comparable schools, but that name value is not an insignificant factor considering the relative benefit later on.


Two students in the same degree program at Harvard or the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign will not be called upon to do any vastly different work (and top grades are likely to be harder to come by at the latter), but upon graduation one 'name' will be significantly more valuable than the other. Consequently, it's a hell of a lot harder to get into Harvard.

I agree name value is important, but it's most important in attaining the first job. After that, name value becomes must less important, replaced by jobs skills, experience, and contacts. The exception of course is a handful of elite schools such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the like. However, very few students have any chance of attending them. They are pretty much reserved for those with exceptional abilities and/or very deep pockets.