When did Junk Plans become Junk Plans

[The Rabbi]

Using an absolute like "ever" is misleading.

Fact is, the non-sick won't sign up until the last minute. This is exactly how it played out with RomneyCare, and how it will probably play out here.

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.

If you dont count the enormous expenses you might be right.

 

[boedicca]

In all the debate over Obamadon'tcare, I don't recall much discussion about "Junk Plans". It was always about "you could keep your insurance if you like it".

Period.

Then our Affirmative Action Non-Hero gets has skinny ass caught in a wringer and all of sudden, these became junk plans.

I am sure there might have been a few statements about this prior to the BIG LIE being exposed, but I don't recall hearing it at all.

If the left can't produce 1000 clips of this, then they have to admit that this is nothing more than a scorched earth effort to divert from the fact that our incompetent president is also an incompetent liar.

ALL OF A SUDDEN THE LEFT BECOMES CONCERNED about our junk plans.

And Ed Shultz has the moxy and the dead brain cells to push this pile of horseshyt.

If you are from the left, don't bother posting about what the plans did and did not cover, that is just more smoke. It really does not matter if you think they are junk or not.

You were pretty quiet on the whole topic prior to the BIG LIE. That is what this is about. Negs to anyone who compares plans.

And maybe I am wrong about this. But I just don't recall seeing it.

All I heard was the may plan (good or bad) and doctor were safe from any issues because of Obamacare.

Let's see it.

I want to know when any plan became anything better than a junk plan. All insurance is junk. You pay the insurance company, they pay the doctor. They're not paying the doctor out of the kindness of their heart. They're in it for profit. That means that, in the long run, you're always paying more than they're paying the doctor. Get rid of Obamacare, and just ban insurance. That way the market can deal with costs the way that markets are meant to deal with them. If the services are too expensive for people to afford, the providers will have to adjust their prices on their own accord if they want to stay in business.

I get your point and I believe the private sector and free market system runs better without government calling the shots.

Health insurance, like auto insurance, was intended to help people in the event of a catastrophic accident or illness. It was government tying it to people's jobs and interfering with what companies had to provide that messed things up. Government wouldn't allow them to compete across state lines and the lack of competition and government control increased prices. Health care suppliers and big pharms also learned to take advantage of insurers by raising their prices. The insurance companies, along with government regulations kept a fountain of money flowing and everyone was ready to grab what they could. Medicare fraud was a huge problem for the last 20 years.

My brother had a lengthy hospital stay due to a serious illness. The final bill was well over 1 million. The amount he was responsible for was around $10,000. Not bad. Without insurance, he would never have been able to pay. The money insurance paid for his hospital stay was waaaay more than he ever paid in.

When government insists that insurance pay for every doctor visit and every pill we take, the costs go up. It would be insane to expect auto insurance to pay for oil changes and other minor things. If the government forced auto insurance companies to follow the same rules they set for health insurers, no one would be able to afford it.

Insurance was a brilliant idea. You make small payments, they invest it along with other payments and make money. Then they are prepared to make a large payout in the event of a serious illness or injury. The amount people paid in would be a small fraction of what the insurance company would pay out.

Leave it to government to get involved and decide that employers must provide it and that insurance must cover damn near everything. Between increased obligations for the insurance companies and no competition, it is any wonder that costs went up?

Yes, they want to make money. It would be downright stupid to start a business that was designed to lose money. It was government run insurance, like Medicare, that caused hikes in medical care and insurance costs because they only paid a small fraction of the bill, leaving other insurance companies to pick up the slack. Hospitals and doctors do need to stay in business, so the cost gets passed on.

Government has a tendency to take a good thing and turn it into a disaster by making volumes of regulations in an effort to micromanage the country.

BINGO. And the free market solution would be to decouple Service Contracts (paying for routine stuff) from Castrophic Care Insurance (real insurance).

 

[Listening]

In all the debate over Obamadon'tcare, I don't recall much discussion about "Junk Plans". It was always about "you could keep your insurance if you like it".

Period.

Then our Affirmative Action Non-Hero gets has skinny ass caught in a wringer and all of sudden, these became junk plans.

I am sure there might have been a few statements about this prior to the BIG LIE being exposed, but I don't recall hearing it at all.

.

You don't?

Because the "underinsured" has been part of this discussion all along.

How Many Are Underinsured? Trends Among U.S. Adults, 2003 and 2007 - The Commonwealth Fund

The number of underinsured U.S. adults—that is, people who have health coverage that does not adequately protect them from high medical expenses—has risen dramatically, a Commonwealth Fund study finds. As of 2007, there were an estimated 25 million underinsured adults in the United States, up 60 percent from 2003.

Much of this growth comes from the ranks of the middle class. While low-income people remain vulnerable, middle-income families have been hit hardest. For adults with incomes above 200 percent of the federal poverty level (about $40,000 per year for a family), the underinsured rates nearly tripled since 2003.

No, this was rarely brought up by any of the Obamaslaves.

It is a germane topic for discussion relative to health care.

The point of the OP which you have helped derail is that you never heard the term Junk Plan spouted off by Pelosi, Biden or Obama......you never heard those senators say that (well, I say never...I am sure someone has a clip of somone saying something once or twice), but that not with the frequency that you heard you can keep your plan.

What you heard after the AAM got caught in the BIG LIE was Junk Plan...after he told everyone they could keep their plans.

I had two plans that were good for me...they are both gone and the replacements bring me no value but cost me a lot of more.

These plans suddenly became junk plans when it was convenient for them to become junk plans.

There were bad plans out there...this, I know. But that wasn't all of them.

And more to the point, this administration out-and-out lied.

 

[Ame®icano]

If these were junk or sub standard plans simple question why didn't Obama and the Democrats tell the public over and over and over they would be losing their junk/substandard plan and getting a better one in return instead of if you like your plan you can keep it period?

Probably because they had no idea that so many people had purchased junk plans in the first place. I have seen people at my doctor's office who have been turned away because the office staff knew that the plan they had would not cover the cost of services.

Doctor will not turn you away. They will tell you if is covered or not, although you should know what coverage you have before you go to the doctor. You can still accept doctor service, and he will send you a bill.

 

[Amelia]

My last post for the evening Obama never said if you like your plan you can keep unless it's a junk plan he never said you can keep any plan except a junk plan he said if you like your current plan and doctor you can keep them period. The term junk, garbage, and sub standard plan did not come into play until millions of people got cancellation notices and everybody started asking Obama about the thirty something times he said if you like your plan and doctor you can keep them period. Something else that has been forgotten here was it not HHS and Kathleen Sebelius who rewrote the rules that made it all but impossible for the people to keep those plans?

The White House set up an email for people to report to when they heard dissenters telling the truth about how you won't be able to keep your insurance. They made a public service announcement saying what liars people who contradicted the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" mantra. They spent tax payer dollars to harass and vilify people who told the truth.

 

[Listening]

My last post for the evening Obama never said if you like your plan you can keep unless it's a junk plan he never said you can keep any plan except a junk plan he said if you like your current plan and doctor you can keep them period. The term junk, garbage, and sub standard plan did not come into play until millions of people got cancellation notices and everybody started asking Obama about the thirty something times he said if you like your plan and doctor you can keep them period. Something else that has been forgotten here was it not HHS and Kathleen Sebelius who rewrote the rules that made it all but impossible for the people to keep those plans?

The White House set up an email for people to report to when they heard dissenters telling the truth about how you won't be able to keep your insurance. They made a public service announcement saying what liars people who contradicted the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" mantra. They spent tax payer dollars to harass and vilify people who told the truth.

I am skeptical.....

But if you have a link, I'd sure like to have it.

This would be akin to the SS Youth of Hitler's time.

 

[Ame®icano]

Obviously you have no clue what you are speaking about. When people go to a doctor's office they are asked to provide identification and their insurance cards. If the person presents a card that only provides junk insurance the doctor's often turn down providing service. I have seen it happen and I have talked to my doctor about junk insurance. They know that the insurance company will not pay the claim and the person requesting service cannot pay for the service. In other words, they know that they will not be paid for their services so they refuse to provide them to avoid the hassle.
Get back to us when you know what a junk policy is.

We know what it is. It's what Obama never mentioned until he got his ass caught in the BIG LIE.

If you know what a junk plan is then you know that the plan is pretty much not worth the paper it is printed on. Junk plans are a scam and are NOT intended to provide insurance. They are intended to make money for the insurance company by selling a worthless plan to gullible idiots. The truth of the matter is that it is probably better NOT to have a junk insurance plan. A junk plan gives people a false sense of security. They think they are covered for serious problems but the truth of the matter is that they are not. For example, a junk plan may offer $600 per day for hospital care for a week. It sounds wonderful but the problem is the average cost for one night in the hospital is around $1800 per day. That means that every day they spend in the hospital they will have to pay $1200 out of their pocket. At the end of the week it becomes $1800 out of pocket. It does not take long to build up a huge debt with those types of charges.
The main reason for filing for personal bankrupcy in this country is for medical reasons. That number is around 2,000,000 a year. It would be my guess many of those had the junk policies you are defending.

Really?

If people chose plan like that, isn't that their responsibility?

And tell me, why should I pay for coverage that I simply don't need?

 

[Amelia]

Junk plans were made possible by a health care industry which invested trillions of dollars into the elections of our politicians. They did this in order to create a state protected monopoly.

This meant that a handful of companies could divide the country into fixed no-compete zones which allowed them to raise rates and decrease services without fear of losing customers.

It also meant they could offer plans with terrible coverage and deductibles people couldn't pay . . . because there were no alternatives being offered by other market competitors (who didn't exist because the existing players divided the country up into fixed markets where many people only had one option).

This was the opposite of what was promised in 1980 when we began deregulating everything. We were told that if we got government out of health care and allowed corporations to make higher profits, than we would see competitive pricing and expanded covered. But we saw the exact opposite. We saw a profusion of junk plans along with an increasing number of good plans that became too expensive for average workers. We saw the kind of price inflation that only occurs with government protected monopolies.

ObamaCare created regulations that targeted junk plans with the hope of replacing them with good plans. The idea was that if enough people joined the state and federal exchanges, the sheer volume would bring the cost curve down so that the corporations could offer better plans at more competitive premiums. Problem is: one of our two political parties is heavily invested in the failure of the exchanges. To the degree that the Republicans can obstruct the exchanges, they can prevent the volume needed by health insurance companies to bring down premiums and offer good policies to those who lost junk policies.

My guess is that the demand for health care is so large, that ObamaCare will slowly spread to the point where it will be hard to take it away. This means that more and more people will be able to trade their junk policy for something much better. However, Republicans are trying awfully hard to prevent this. Their goal is to make sure that the system cannot offer better alternatives to those who lose junk policies. If they succeed, they have a chance at killing ObamaCare and restoring the health care monopoly that funds their elections.

The ACA really didn't change this. In fact, in some areas it made it worse. The deductibles for plans in the exchange are outrageous; there's no way a middle class family will be able to afford reaching the deductible. Add on to that the fact that some of the "extra coverage" you get from the ACA are in areas a lot of people don't want or need. I do not need maternity coverage, or psychological coverage, or substance abuse coverage. But I'm now forced to pay for those things that I will never use. If I buy a car without built in GPS or bluetooth, I didn't just buy a junk car. It was a car that has only what I need, and I was able to pay less for it.

The only upside to the ACA cost wise, is that people who are poor will pay less for the plan. They'll pay more for nearly everything else related to their health care, but not their premiums.

It's okay. They just need to make sure they don't sprain their ankles or break their arms or catch the flu.

 

[tap4154]

My last post for the evening Obama never said if you like your plan you can keep unless it's a junk plan he never said you can keep any plan except a junk plan he said if you like your current plan and doctor you can keep them period. The term junk, garbage, and sub standard plan did not come into play until millions of people got cancellation notices and everybody started asking Obama about the thirty something times he said if you like your plan and doctor you can keep them period. Something else that has been forgotten here was it not HHS and Kathleen Sebelius who rewrote the rules that made it all but impossible for the people to keep those plans?

The White House set up an email for people to report to when they heard dissenters telling the truth about how you won't be able to keep your insurance. They made a public service announcement saying what liars people who contradicted the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" mantra. They spent tax payer dollars to harass and vilify people who told the truth.

I am skeptical.....

But if you have a link, I'd sure like to have it.

This would be akin to the SS Youth of Hitler's time.

Cancer Patient Bill Elliott Audited By IRS After ObamaCare Drops Insurance - Investors.com

A cancer patient who spoke out against the cancellation of his insurance by ObamaCare now faces an IRS audit he may not live to see, and says he'll pay the fine rather than burden his family.

Bill Elliott knows the meaning of the adage that the only two things that are certain are death and taxes, for he is now staring both in the face.

Like the Tea Party before him, Elliott faces an IRS audit for speaking out against the ObamaCare that canceled his insurance coverage he liked and was promised he could keep.

He appeared recently on Charleston, S.C.'s WQSC and was told by the radio host that "you stood up and spoke out about how ObamaCare screwed over your insurance and probably would kill you, and what's the next thing that happened? You get audited by the IRS. That is not a coincidence."

Elliott responded, "No, it's not."

"I like my doctor. I love my insurance," Elliott told Fox News anchor Megyn Kelly last Thursday night. "They were paying just about everything, including medication and medical devices."

Then he got the letter that told him that his cancer was considered "beyond a catastrophic pre-existing condition" and his plan was being canceled because of new regulations.

Elliott says he was given the option of a new $1,500-per-month plan, up from the $180 per month or so that he'd been paying.

"Now with ObamaCare, the man that I've got looked into it, they are not going to pay for pharmaceuticals or medical devices. MRI that I had last month before I got canceled was $3,000. Now, if I have to have another one, it costs me out of my pocket $3,000," Elliott told Kelly on Nov. 7.

"I've thought about this long and hard," Elliott said. "When my insurance comes out, just for me, it will be $1,500 a month with a $13,500 deductible. I'm not going to pay that. If I make it that long, I will pay the $95 fine and let nature take its course."

Elliott told Kelly he actually voted for Obama over Mitt Romney last year specifically because he liked what Obama had promised about being able to keep your doctors and your insurance plans.

 

[tap4154]

Even the insurance broker who helped Elliot keep his HC plan got audit notice!

IRS goes after ObamaCare critic C. Steven Tucker, and South Carolina cancer patient - Illinois Review

CHICAGO - One afternoon a few weeks ago, Chicago insurance broker and ObamaCare critic C. Steven Tucker happened to see a cancer patient tell Fox News' Megyn Kelly about losing his health care insurance policy. Tucker looked up the South Carolina resident on Facebook and offered to help him find health care coverage immediately, so his badly-needed cancer treatments could continue.

Tucker and cancer patient Bill Elliott connected and Tucker was able to find Elliott the help he needed. Elliott publicly thanked Tucker for his life-saving assistance, but little did either know they would soon be fighting another battle - this one with the Internal Revenue Service.

Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, both Tucker and Elliott received official notifications that they were being audited by the Internal Revenue Service.

Elliott, who is a retired government worker, was told he would be facing audit in 2014. Tucker says the IRS letter to him demands $4000 from 2003 and $2000 from 2010 be paid before December 26, 2013.

The seeming coincidence of two vaguely connected persons getting notice they are being investigated by the federal government is sending shock waves throughout the web. A growing number is wondering if the message is "Don't publicly embarrass or challenge ObamaCare, or you could face the IRS."

The IRS has been used in the past by at least one presidential administration to intimidate political enemies. President Richard Nixon faced impeachment for using the IRS. Article 2, Section 1 of Nixon's impeachment charges says:

 

[BluesMistress]

Obviously you have no clue what you are speaking about. When people go to a doctor's office they are asked to provide identification and their insurance cards. If the person presents a card that only provides junk insurance the doctor's often turn down providing service. I have seen it happen and I have talked to my doctor about junk insurance. They know that the insurance company will not pay the claim and the person requesting service cannot pay for the service. In other words, they know that they will not be paid for their services so they refuse to provide them to avoid the hassle.
Get back to us when you know what a junk policy is.

We know what it is. It's what Obama never mentioned until he got his ass caught in the BIG LIE.

If you know what a junk plan is then you know that the plan is pretty much not worth the paper it is printed on. Junk plans are a scam and are NOT intended to provide insurance. They are intended to make money for the insurance company by selling a worthless plan to gullible idiots. The truth of the matter is that it is probably better NOT to have a junk insurance plan. A junk plan gives people a false sense of security. They think they are covered for serious problems but the truth of the matter is that they are not. For example, a junk plan may offer $600 per day for hospital care for a week. It sounds wonderful but the problem is the average cost for one night in the hospital is around $1800 per day. That means that every day they spend in the hospital they will have to pay $1200 out of their pocket. At the end of the week it becomes $1800 out of pocket. It does not take long to build up a huge debt with those types of charges.
The main reason for filing for personal bankrupcy in this country is for medical reasons. That number is around 2,000,000 a year. It would be my guess many of those had the junk policies you are defending.

Junk Plans?? All Plans are overseen and regulated by each state. You are being untruthful and lying when you say you've seen people being turned away by staff because they already know that they don't/won't pay. You're an Idiot that knows absolutely nothing about how a medical office works ~ Sheeeesh...I don't have time to go over all of your Misconceptions, misrepresentation and outright lies.
The patient is not responsible for $1200. they are usually responsible for 20-30% of the $600 that was agreed upon...The group plan hpo/ppo has already set a limit as to what it will pay, much like obamacare. The Ins co & provider have already set the terms. It's called a Contract!! Those so called junk plans paid or they would be put out of business by the STATE Insurance commission. The difference is obamacare is costing a whole lot more and paying a whole lot less. If there is a so called "Junk Plan" it most certainly is Obamacare!!!

A Big Difference between romneycare & obamacare is that if anyone chose not to participant they had the choice to move to another state!!! It doesn't hide and lie about what it is. Don't like it Move. We Could have easily bought nice "Junk Plans" for all the uninsured for many years just for the price of a fucked up website! Think about that!!

 

[Listening]

We know what it is. It's what Obama never mentioned until he got his ass caught in the BIG LIE.

If you know what a junk plan is then you know that the plan is pretty much not worth the paper it is printed on. Junk plans are a scam and are NOT intended to provide insurance. They are intended to make money for the insurance company by selling a worthless plan to gullible idiots. The truth of the matter is that it is probably better NOT to have a junk insurance plan. A junk plan gives people a false sense of security. They think they are covered for serious problems but the truth of the matter is that they are not. For example, a junk plan may offer $600 per day for hospital care for a week. It sounds wonderful but the problem is the average cost for one night in the hospital is around $1800 per day. That means that every day they spend in the hospital they will have to pay $1200 out of their pocket. At the end of the week it becomes $1800 out of pocket. It does not take long to build up a huge debt with those types of charges.
The main reason for filing for personal bankrupcy in this country is for medical reasons. That number is around 2,000,000 a year. It would be my guess many of those had the junk policies you are defending.

Junk Plans?? All Plans are overseen and regulated by each state. You are being untruthful and lying when you say you've seen people being turned away by staff because they already know that they don't/won't pay. You're an Idiot that knows absolutely nothing about how a medical office works ~ Sheeeesh...I don't have time to go over all of your Misconceptions, misrepresentation and outright lies.
The patient is not responsible for $1200....The group plan hpo/ppo has already set a limit as to what it will pay, much like obamacare. The Ins co & provider have already set the terms. It's called a Contract!! Those so called junk plans paid or they would be put out of business by the STATE Insurance commission. The difference is obamacare is costing a whole lot more and paying a whole lot less. If there is a so called "Junk Plan" it most certainly is Obamacare!!!

A Big Difference between romneycare & obamacare is that if anyone chose not to participant they had the choice to move to another state!!! It doesn't hide and lie about what it is. Don't like it Move. We Could have easily bought nice "Junk Pilicies" policies for all the uninsured for many years just for the price of a fucked up website! Think about that!!

A most excellent post.

Rep on the way.

But, again I would remind people that what I am looking for is clips where the left callled these things junk plans in advance of the Big Lie (oh, and told people they would NOT be able to keep them).

 

[Ame®icano]

FYI, The Rainmaker is about a lawyer who who sues an insurance company for not paying an insurance claim. It is a straight up case of insurance fraud, and has less to do with junk plans than the many plans that Obama currently hates for exposing his lies.

His proof comes from a Hollywood movie. What does that say about the veracity of the rest of his post?
How many policies sold were actually scams? Yeah, not a lot. Because if they were that bad people would cancel them.
It is the leftist world view that unless gov't is there to "help" people are just too damn stupid to figure it out for themselves.

First of all, my proof is not based on a Hollywood movie. However, the movie gives an excellent example of how the junk insurance plans cheat Americans. As you are apparently not smart enough to read or understand what is going on I thought a visual aid may be a help to you.
And as for people cancelling their plans when the find out they are trash, THEY DO NOT FIND OUT THEY ARE TRASH UNTIL THEY FILE A CLAIM. Then when they do file a claim and find out their plan WILL NOT help them it is to late to do anything about it. The primary reason given for filing for personnal bankrupcy in this country is the inability to pay medical expenses. Almost 2,000,000 people file for bankrupcy due to medical costs in this country each year. Most of them probably have junk plans that have declined their claims.
Oh, and as for that village in Kenya that is missing its idiot, it sounds like a real opportunity for you. Have you applied? You should.

So you watch the Hollywood movie from activist like Damon, and you assume that all industry is like that.
Beside of all, why should anyone care about idiots that buys something and don't know what they bought. Try to understand that government can't protect anyone from being stupid.

 

[Ame®icano]

.

Yes, there are shitty, "junk" policies out there. I've seen 'em, I've spoken with billing departments of doctors offices on behalf of my clients about them.

But they represent a very small portion of the policies that have been taken away. The rest were plans that were more personalized, working just fine, or didn't include stuff the gods of the ACA deem are "essential", like maternity coverage for a 50-year old guy.

One of two things is happening here: The apologists don't know this and/or don't care, but they're gonna defend this pig of a law for purely political reasons, or the apologists DO know this and are simply lying.

It really is that simple.

.

It strikes me that if these plans were so good, big insurance wouldn't have had a problem modifying them to comply.

I mean, you can whine about the 50 year old's maternity coverage all day, but really, if there is never a payout for that, what is the expense, exactly?

Fact is, simple solution. No more 8 figure salaries for Insurance CEO's and no dividends paid to Insurance Company stockholders until they create policies that comply.

Easy-peasy.

Pay out for that coverage is not a problem. Pay in is.

 

[Ame®icano]

Guy, I've been hearing that shit from the "Oh my god, the Black guy stole Romney's Plan" crowd for the last four years. ObamaCare is going to eat your babies and shit. It's tiresome.

Do I think ObamaCare made too many comprimises in order to get passed? Yup.

Do I think it's needlessly bureaucratic? Absolutely.

Is it still a damn sight better than what we had? Yes, yes it is.

A damn sight better?

The name of the law should be changed to fit what it does.

It makes health care less affordable, so the name doesn't fit. That is what it does. That, contrary to what you claim, is what it's designed to do.

Actually, it insures more people than we had insured before.

In teh process, it eliminates plans that were garbage that insurance companies sold with a straight face.

What's the number of people that got coverage under ACA and how many people lost insurance because of ACA?

And please remind everyone here, under ACA how many people will still be uninsured when it's all implemented?

 

[g5000]

What makes Obama's lie so insidious is that "you can keep your plan if you like it" carries with it a very strong implication of protecting your personal freedom.

The truth is that ObamaCare is the obverse. It is a removal of personal liberty.


The father of ObamaCare also removed personal liberty. It also required people to get insurance that met the State's minimum standards. Of course, I am talking about RomneyCare.

And the GOP rewarded Romney by trying to make him President. Twice.


Sooner or later, you will all realize your own party sold you down the river to the liberals. Don't let your judgment be overridden by all their smoke you are inhaling.

 

[Ame®icano]

[

See to Joe anything that sticks it to people and gives government more control is a damn sight better.
Obamacare has raised medical costs, including insurance premiums, tremendously for the average person. It has caused more people to be uninsured than to be insured.
In all Obamacare has failed every promise that was made for it. Every single one.
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Period.
Obamacare will not add one thin dime to the deficit
Obamacare will bend the cost curve down.
Every one of these statements was a lie. And the people saying it knew it was a lie.

Guy, my insurance costs the same next year as it does this year. And the same is the case for most of the 130 million people who get their insurance through their employers or unions.

It also costs the same for the 100 million who are already getting care through government programs.

So most "average" people, no change.

46 million people who weren't covered before are getting an improvement.

The people who are having a problem are about 5 million who bought cut-rate plans that didn't cover anything.

BUt keep screaming hysterically, like you guys did with Social Security and Medicare. ObamaCare will eventually become a third rail you don't dare touch.

You know union plans were exempt, right?
The mandate for employers has not kicked in yet, thanks to Obama's illegal action. That is the only reason many more people have not been kicked on to the exchanges.
You can dismiss 5M people if you want. You don't give a shit about people anyway.

The Rabbi, they always have excuses... Union are some "special deal", just as some preferred companies (campaign donors). Take a look at penalties for not having insurance from next year.
2014 - up to $285 for family or 1% of income
2015 - up to $975 for family or 2% of income
2016 - up to $2085 for family or 2.5% of income
See the difference? Do they really care about people having insurance or it's just about money?

 

[g5000]

[

See to Joe anything that sticks it to people and gives government more control is a damn sight better.
Obamacare has raised medical costs, including insurance premiums, tremendously for the average person. It has caused more people to be uninsured than to be insured.
In all Obamacare has failed every promise that was made for it. Every single one.
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Period.
Obamacare will not add one thin dime to the deficit
Obamacare will bend the cost curve down.
Every one of these statements was a lie. And the people saying it knew it was a lie.

Guy, my insurance costs the same next year as it does this year. And the same is the case for most of the 130 million people who get their insurance through their employers or unions.

It also costs the same for the 100 million who are already getting care through government programs.

So most "average" people, no change.

46 million people who weren't covered before are getting an improvement.

The people who are having a problem are about 5 million who bought cut-rate plans that didn't cover anything.

BUt keep screaming hysterically, like you guys did with Social Security and Medicare. ObamaCare will eventually become a third rail you don't dare touch.

You know union plans were exempt, right?

Exempt from what?

They were not exempt from the minimum standards requirement.

 

[Ame®icano]

[

You dont understand the market system. Why is this surprising?
Private insurance exits because there is a need for sucha thing. It is screwedup because of tax incentives and gov't regulation.

No, private insurance exists because back in the 1940's, government froze wages to keep people from job hopping when unemployment dropped to 0 and they had to employ just about anyone to keep war production running with 16 million men in uniform. So they developed this benefit to attract good help.

And since then, they've had to do all sorts of tricks to keep the system afloat, because in the long run, you can't insure people's health the way you insure their car or their house. There is a 100% chance you are going to die, eventually.

Without incentives, no one would be able to get affordable insurance who actually needed it, and people who didn't need it wouldn't buy it.

Every time government gets involved in social engineering it backfires. You said it yourself. What makes you think it wont backfire this time?

 

[g5000]

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You dont understand the market system. Why is this surprising?
Private insurance exits because there is a need for sucha thing. It is screwedup because of tax incentives and gov't regulation.

No, private insurance exists because back in the 1940's, government froze wages to keep people from job hopping when unemployment dropped to 0 and they had to employ just about anyone to keep war production running with 16 million men in uniform. So they developed this benefit to attract good help.

And since then, they've had to do all sorts of tricks to keep the system afloat, because in the long run, you can't insure people's health the way you insure their car or their house.

What a pile of bullshit.

There is a 100% chance you are going to die, eventually.

And yet I can buy life insurance the same way I buy my auto or home insurance. Cheaply.

Without incentives, no one would be able to get affordable insurance who actually needed it, and people who didn't need it wouldn't buy it.

One of the reasons health insurance costs outpace inflation is because of employer-sponsored health insurance. That is a big labor union boondoggle.

Another reason is because the government has been in the health insurance market for a very long time and yet is allowed to write the rules its private sector competitors must follow! Is it really a surprise the private sector is hobbled?

I can pick up the phone and buy home, auto, or life insurance from any insurance company in the country. And I can choose which options I do or do not want. This nationwide competition and personal liberty of choice provide me tremendous bargaining leverage.

None of this leverage is available to me for health insurance. The reason you "can't insure people's health the way you insure their car or their house", as you stated, is precisely because the government prevents you from being able to do so.

People who are insured through their employer are in a pool which is limited by the number of employees. So a small employer has very little leverage with an insurance company. In turn, the insurance company is geographically limited by the government, and therefore has less leverage with a health care provider.

The government, on the other hand, allows itself to insure people across the entire country, thereby providing it with massive leverage with health care providers.

This is a giant pile of bullshit.