What logical solution can there be?

[kcmcdonald]

If were on the topic of books,
try
"radical son" by david howarwitz
"letters to a young conservative" by Dinesh D'Souza

 

[montyfowler]

Originally posted by kcmcdonald
We belive that it is america's responsibility to the world(even though they won't admit it)to ensure that peace and prosparity flourish, and that no govt. go byond it's boders to create instabiltiy. And to ensure that WMDs do not become a have all in the world of dictators and Barbaric regimes.

You have hit the nail on the head! This is why France, Germany, and Russia are opposed to virtually everything the U.S. has done in the past 2 years. They would say that we have violated our own conservative principles by projecting our power around the world, and that we have prosecuted two illegal wars: Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is an important dimension to the Bush Doctrine that they have completely missed. It is that the U.S. has finally recognized and stepped up to its' responsibility as the only remaining superpower. Like it or not, we are indeed the world's policeman. It is unfortunate that it took 9/11 to bring us to this realization, but since then, we have acted accordingly.

Could we have done Iraq better...sure, but as RWA and KCM have so mercilessly reminded me, hindsight is 20/20. But the short-term effect of our actions in Iraq are more freedom for the people of Iraq, and a credible presence for us in the region. The long-term effect will be a free, strong, and secure democracy in Iraq. They will be a beacon of freedom to the other oppressed nations of the Arabian peninsula.

The only aspect of the Bush Doctrine that our "friends" across the ocean focus on is our right to conduct preemptive defensive operations against any threat, anywhere in the world. What the "troica of hiprocracy" (that's my term for the coalition of the stupid: Germany, France and Russia) doesn't want to admit is that the vast majority of nations have cooperated with us in this new era, and actively support our actions. Even the Saudis, Yemen, Bahrain, Pakistan, and Libya have helped us fight the War on Terror. What part of the Bush Doctrine is bad for the world?

Oh yeah, the part where Germany, France and Russia are marginalized to the extent that they become irrelevant on the world stage. Just drink your beer, eat your cheese, and wait in line for toilet paper and keep your collective yappers shut. We'll do the rest and send you the bill.

This ends my rant for Wednesday.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The thing is Monty, everyone wants our projected power, when it benefits them, or their security is threatened. But they abandon us only when our security is also threatened, even though our security by extension is their security. They depend on our power, but don't even want to be our allies when the chips are down. It's disgustingly hypocritical.

Look monty, we are already effectively a global empire, we're just asking for a little honesty.

 

[montyfowler]

I laughed out loud when GWB instructed the State Department to exclude France, Russia, and Germany from bidding on reconstruction projects in Iraq. I thought Koffi Anan's head was going to explode over that one! Hee, hee!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You're good monty. You say what you know is true to get us on board, then you tried an appeal to christianity somehow to cover the blatant hypocrisy of our "allies". I called you on it. Now you're back on board. Interesting.

 

[montyfowler]

And this is where I get conflicted.

As a person, and American, I can very angry when our "allies" do not support us, especially when we are at war with terrorists.

But as a Christian, I must forgive them for their ignorance and even their open betrayal. The litmus test I use is simple: if Christ can forgive me for my sins, then who am I to withhold forgiveness from my neighbor?

The way I deal with the natural anger I feel toward our allies, is to try to understand what drives them to make such decisions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I think it is important for us (Americans) to realize that other countries do have the right to agree or disagree with our actions and policies, insomuch as they impact those countries. But we (the U.S.) also has the right and responsibility to have a long memory of such things, and to hold other countries accountable for their choices. And GWB understands this implicitly.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Monty, your eyes have mesmerized me! Nice Pic.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by montyfowler
And this is where I get conflicted.

As a person, and American, I can very angry when our "allies" do not support us, especially when we are at war with terrorists.

But as a Christian, I must forgive them for their ignorance and even their open betrayal. The litmus test I use is simple: if Christ can forgive me for my sins, then who am I to withhold forgiveness from my neighbor?

The way I deal with the natural anger I feel toward our allies, is to try to understand what drives them to make such decisions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I think it is important for us (Americans) to realize that other countries do have the right to agree or disagree with our actions and policies, insomuch as they impact those countries. But we (the U.S.) also has the right and responsibility to have a long memory of such things, and to hold other countries accountable for their choices. And GWB understands this implicitly.

Ponder this one. I fully believe the Protestant work ethic, which built up this country through history, is now becoming a liability to those who learn a trade, work hard, but then find their jobs disappearing. Being from middle america, I understand this all too well. Many midwesterners grow up being taught to work hard and that all will be well. Starting a business is still seen a little bit as something that greedy, bad, people who don't want to work do.

In a globalized environment, our dumb repetitive labor is too expensive. All we have left is our brains. We must work smarter, not harder. According to the Protestant work ethic, this is something a little bit shady, a shortcut, if you will. We must evolve past the limitations of christianity. Though christianity is still very valuable in many of it's pro social, profamily, pro-accountability messages.

 

[montyfowler]

RWA...

This would be a great topic for the general usa chat room. Do you want to start the thread or should I?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by montyfowler
RWA...

This would be a great topic for the general usa chat room. Do you want to start the thread or should I?

You go ahead. Feel free to cut and paste anything I wrote. I have to take a shower now. See you in a few.

 

[kcmcdonald]

RWA,KCM, and Monty geting along.
The sky is Falling!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL

 

[Barbarossa]

There is no logical compromise for the Israel/palestine problem. The two groups have been fighting since basically the beginning of recorded history. Thats over 2000 year, they won't compromise.

 

[William Joyce]

"For over 4,000 years the entire world has castigated the jews for various reason, most of which boil down to racism, plain and simple."

This is what Jews would like us to believe. The truth is that Jews are hated because they persistently do things that piss us all off. That is, they're hated because they are HATABLE! Why doesn't the world hate, say, Finns?

"Let's try to keep the antisemitic comments out of the mix. Besides offending people, it only serves to destroy the credibility of your arguments."

In other words, let's analyze this from every possible perspective but the ones that may put (gasp!) some of the blame on Jews. Jews, always blameless. The rest of us (ignorant Muslim masses, nativist white people, Mel Gibson, etc.) are always to be blamed. I get sick of this shit. Doesn't anyone else? Talk about destroying credibility.

Look, I don't see Jews as the source of all the world's problems. But there is something really, really freakin' weird about how they can lock out all criticism of themselves. I think this, more than "racism" or "anti-Semitism," contributes to the belief that they DO run the world.

 

[Zhukov]

Jews, always blameless.

Jews never get blamed for anything?

Except for that whole deicide thing, right?

 

[montyfowler]

Originally posted by William Joyce
In other words, let's analyze this from every possible perspective but the ones that may put (gasp!) some of the blame on Jews. Jews, always blameless. The rest of us (ignorant Muslim masses, nativist white people, Mel Gibson, etc.) are always to be blamed. I get sick of this shit. Doesn't anyone else? Talk about destroying credibility.

Look, I don't see Jews as the source of all the world's problems. But there is something really, really freakin' weird about how they can lock out all criticism of themselves. I think this, more than "racism" or "anti-Semitism," contributes to the belief that they DO run the world.

There is a world of difference between legitimate criticism of Jews or the Israeli government, and open antisemitic or racist remarks. You're a smart guy and you know the difference.

I would never stop anyone from discussing true criticism of any group...that's the whole point of debate. But you do destroy your credibility when you engage in meanspirited vicious hate speech.

I will be the first one to criticize the Israeli government for their stubborn conduct over the past three years. The massacre at Jenin was criminal and the people in the Israeli government responsible for giving the orders should be prosecuted. The wanton assassination of PLO, Hammas, and other Palestinian leaders is as bad as the suicide bombings. Notice though...there is a difference between the Israeli government and "the Jews". About half of the Israeli executive branch and Knesset are nonreligious. They are no more Jewish than an Italian atheist is Catholic.

Let's get back to the topic of this thread and stop all the moronic hate speech.

 

[William Joyce]

Notice though...there is a difference between the Israeli government and "the Jews". About half of the Israeli executive branch and Knesset are nonreligious. They are no more Jewish than an Italian atheist is Catholic.

If you are interested, there is a psychology professer at the University of California, Long Beach, who has demonstrated that Jews identify as Jews regardless of their level of religiousness --- and sometimes, the less religious a Jew is, the MORE they identify as a Jew. His name is Kevin MacDonald, and his book, Culture of Critique, lays out this viewpoint. He has shown that Jews are essentially an ethnicity, not a religion, but that they have skillfully manipulated their host societies into thinking of them as "just another religion," i.e., of no more significance than the difference between a Lutheran and a Catholic. Genetic testing reveals that Jews are biologically related, however. Their "religion," like them as a people, is NOT open to outsiders. This is quite unlike Christianity.

I don't consider this "moronic hate speech." I consider it crucial to any understanding of solutions to the problems in the Middle East.

 

[montyfowler]

So now we are to believe that the "Jews" are a genetically distinct ethnic group? Never mind the great Diaspora that scattered the semitic Jews across Europe and Central Asia over the past 1,400 years. Never mind the 70+ generations of ethnic mixing with the populations of Western Europe, the Balkans, and Russia.

Your last post sounds alot like some of the psuedo-science practiced in the 30's in Germany. What's next? Are you going to point to some research that compares cranial meaurements of Jews with other ethinic groups?

Again...what does any of this have to do with the topic? Show me, Herr Joyce, how any of this trash relates to the problem of peace in the Middle East. I beg of you...please make a point! Even a lame point would be welcome.

 

[William Joyce]

So now we are to believe that the "Jews" are a genetically distinct ethnic group?

Absolutely. A point of MacDonald's work is that despite the diaspora, Jews have maintained very, very tight intra-ethnic connections, even to the point of inbreeding. They have done this by heavy discouragement of marrying outside the ethnicity. And, the genetic research cannot be refuted. You can take a self-identified American Jew and find close genetic relations with German Jews, French Jews, etc.

The point being: what's going on in the Middle East is a RACE WAR. Plain and simple. It's not about "freedom" versus other, or about "Judaism" versus "Islam." Just listen to what the Jews themselves say about it, in moments of honesty.

 

[montyfowler]

And, the genetic research cannot be refuted. You can take a self-identified American Jew and find close genetic relations with German Jews, French Jews, etc.

Sure it can. What genetic research are you (Mac Donald) referencing? What was the sample population size? What genetic markers have been determined to be indicative of "Jewish" ethnicity? Since we do not have an archetypical Jewish genetic sample (100% Jewish - whatever that means) how can any scientist make a meaningful comparison?

Oh...and by the way. Mac Donald and his "scholarly" writings are widely viewed by his peers to be nothing but well-written racist rubbish.

Nice try.

And for a third time...I invite you to post something relevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[William Joyce]

Nobody has actually taken issue with the substance of what MacDonald has said. Most folks have simply screamed and said, "You can't say that about the precious Jews!"

But he did. Here:

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759672229/qid=1078798509/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8502695-4961438?v=glance&s=books[/ame]

You are insisting that my posts are not relevant to the topic. I am insisting that they are. Readers will be the judge. Understanding the middle east situation involves an accurate understanding of the competing parties.