What if Roe Vs. Wade was Overturned?

[Zhukov]

If Roe v. Wade was overturned doctors in states like New York, Illinois, and California would be able to perform abortions while doctors in states like Utah, Kansas, and Georgia would not. Or at least that's how the legislatures of those states would most likely decide, which is the way it is supposed to be.

 

[alien21010]

If Roe v. Wade was overturned doctors in states like New York, Illinois, and California would be able to perform abortions while doctors in states like Utah, Kansas, and Georgia would not. Or at least that's how the legislatures of those states would most likely decide, which is the way it is supposed to be.

Agreed... And as long as states don't prohibit people from crossing state lines to receive safe, legal abortions... Then they should be able to legislate it per the United States Constitution.

 

[Zhukov]

If only our superiors, those black cloaked men and women of 'the Court', those people of LAW, those arbiters or CORRECT, knew how reasonable and logical we, the scum, the sheep, the people, really were, surely they would let us decide our own fate....

Maybe, someday, they will....

 

[deaddude]

Abortion should be restricted. Not banned.
It should be restricted to instances where carrying the child to term will kill the mother, or instances of rape.

However Rape victims should be strongly ecouraged to adopt.

 

[manu1959]

Abortion should be restricted. Not banned.
It should be restricted to instances where carrying the child to term will kill the mother, or instances of rape.

However Rape victims should be strongly ecouraged to adopt.

killing stupid people should be restricted. Not banned.

it should be restricted to instances where allowing the person to continue living will place a burden on society .... however, really stupid people should be encouraged to blow their own brains out...

 

[deaddude]

So you are saying that one lifes worth outweighs another?

 

[Gunny]

Hydra,

Did you read the article or simply see that it was about overturning Roe Vs. Wade and quickly click to put your two cents in?

The reason I am asking is because if you HAD read the article...you would have seen that the author's point was that if Roe Vs. Wade WAS overturned, the availability of abortions would remain just about the same.
The only difference would be that "the people" would be the ones deciding these important matters, rather than a handful of lawyers in black robes.

I understand your feelings on the matter...however your point simply proved the author's main point...that so many people are so wrapped up in being Pro-Choice...that they haven't examined what overturning Roe Vs. Wade would really mean...or wouldn't mean. And what it WOULD'NT mean, is the abolition of abortion.


Nucular, I understand your point...however the Founding Fathers were wise enough to envision Federal Government run wild (take a look...we're pretty much there), and the individual rule of the States was their solution to that.

Perhaps you should have posted the simple version with the original? :scratch:

And I agree. Roe v Wade being overturned would not have a significant impact on abortion. Abortion is too ingrained in our National cuture as a means of escaping one's irresponsible behavior.

 

[Gunny]

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm totally ignorant. But what is the validity of "states rights" in the modern era? Maybe when this country started there were differences between the states. But now there are none. Mississippi has Walmart, Office Depot and MacDonalds. So does Alaska. And every state in between. There is very little regional culture in America and absolutely no "State" culture, excepting cheese in Wisconsin and lobster in Maine. What is the BFD about "states rights"? Isn't this a ridiculous anachronism?

:wank: :wank: :wank:

You may be "totally ignorant."

I don't know how many different regions of the US you have lived in, but I have lived in most of them at one time or another and there is a HUGE cultural difference between most of them.

 

[elephant]

There was a war in the US from 1861 to 1865 called the Civil War. When a group of states, the Confederate states, tried to secede from US, the Union states, who, for the record, were fighting against “states rights”, tried to kill all the Confederate citizens, and thus, they, the Confederate states, were stopped from seceding. POOF – no more “states rights”. The right to secede, or, “vote with your feet”, was what kept groups of like minded people living and working together. When the “state” tried to impose taxes or laws with which the people disagreed, they, the citizens, simply left and started a new “state”. Even northern states formally announced their intentions to secede until concessions were made. Enough on history.

HEADLINE, “CIVIL WAR OVER IN 1865 – STATES RIGHTS LOST”

What will really happen when Roe vs. Wade is overturned?

One state, pick any one, will make abortion illegal. A citizen of that state will want an abortion and with the help of some lawyers get a case heard by the Supreme Court. The court will rule in favor of the state. Now there will be federal precedent for the illegality of abortion. Other citizens in states where abortion is legal will bring cases before every court in the land, and either by using the Supreme Court precedent, or by eventually having the case heard by the Supreme Court, the cases will be ruled in favor of whoever wants to stop abortion. Basically this means no legal abortion.

Then, Canada and Mexico will setup private abortion clinics and bring Americans over for abortions. They will trade their abortion stocks on NYSE and become rich. Everyone is happy.

 

[Hobbit]

There was a war in the US from 1861 to 1865 called the Civil War. When a group of states, the Confederate states, tried to secede from US, the Union states, who, for the record, were fighting against “states rights”, tried to kill all the Confederate citizens, and thus, they, the Confederate states, were stopped from seceding. POOF – no more “states rights”. The right to secede, or, “vote with your feet”, was what kept groups of like minded people living and working together. When the “state” tried to impose taxes or laws with which the people disagreed, they, the citizens, simply left and started a new “state”. Even northern states formally announced their intentions to secede until concessions were made. Enough on history.

HEADLINE, “CIVIL WAR OVER IN 1865 – STATES RIGHTS LOST”

What will really happen when Roe vs. Wade is overturned?

One state, pick any one, will make abortion illegal. A citizen of that state will want an abortion and with the help of some lawyers get a case heard by the Supreme Court. The court will rule in favor of the state. Now there will be federal precedent for the illegality of abortion. Other citizens in states where abortion is legal will bring cases before every court in the land, and either by using the Supreme Court precedent, or by eventually having the case heard by the Supreme Court, the cases will be ruled in favor of whoever wants to stop abortion. Basically this means no legal abortion.

Then, Canada and Mexico will setup private abortion clinics and bring Americans over for abortions. They will trade their abortion stocks on NYSE and become rich. Everyone is happy.

No, becuase the precedent will not be "against abortion," it will be in favor of the state. If the Supreme Court rules that it's up to the states to decide abortion laws, then it won't reverse itself when somebody wants to ban abortion in a state. This is not a pure black and white issue. Roe vs. Wade did not change abortion from illegal to legal, it overrode the states' authority to decide their own laws. If Roe vs. Wade was overturned, then the states would decide abortion laws, like it was before the decision.

As far as this fairy tale about the Supreme Court ruling against abortion in all cases if they overturn Roe vs. Wade, either you're not very knowledgable about legal proceedings, or you think I'm stupid. Seeing as how one is insulting and the other is perfectly reasonable, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[elephant]

No, becuase the precedent will not be "against abortion," it will be in favor of the state. If the Supreme Court rules that it's up to the states to decide abortion laws, then it won't reverse itself when somebody wants to ban abortion in a state. This is not a pure black and white issue. Roe vs. Wade did not change abortion from illegal to legal, it overrode the states' authority to decide their own laws. If Roe vs. Wade was overturned, then the states would decide abortion laws, like it was before the decision.

As far as this fairy tale about the Supreme Court ruling against abortion in all cases if they overturn Roe vs. Wade, either you're not very knowledgable about legal proceedings, or you think I'm stupid. Seeing as how one is insulting and the other is perfectly reasonable, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

For the record, when you mention that I think you are stupid (and now I might), it tells me you are weak and you have a severe inferiority complex. Apparently, you try to make up for it with a falsely inflated ego – I do not think about you or consider your level of stupidity when I write posts. Sorry – I never mentioned you nor did I reply to one of your posts in this thread.

Obviously you are just trying to argue with me because you hope to find some debate you feel you can win – I had no idea you could not handle debate or the idea you might be wrong, so poorly. Good luck with your personal problems. Maybe you should start a thread asking for help.

OK “genius” – The overturning of Roe vs. Wade will not DIRECTLY make abortion illegal because the court does make laws – DUH! In the future (apparently I must be exact for you), after Roe vs. Wade has been overturned and when a case regarding the constitutionality of abortion law is being heard by the court, the court they will decide in favor of the constitutionality of the law – no mention of states rights (again they do not exist anyway). Eventually, the court will simply say abortion is unconstitutional and this will supersede any (non-existent) "states rights". This will have NOTHING to do with “states rights”. It will be a court decision about abortion. The first step will be overturning Roe vs. Wade. I hope this is clear enough for you. I do not have time to detail a complete version of the future that includes all the hypothetical cases and decisions and how this leads to abortion being illegal.

Here is a quick summary:

Overturn Roe vs. Wade --> one state formally legalizes abortion (could be many) --> Supreme Court case about this law (could be many) --> courts says abortion is unconstitutional (could take a little while) --> no more abortion (not claiming it will happen tomorrow)

Back to my post:

Like you said, "it overrode the states' authority to decide their own laws." And to repeat myself this actually happened in 1865. The federal government will NOT 'give back' the right to tell states what to do. The fetuses will be given the same rights as you and I – murdering them will be a violation of the law. No state will be allowed to make murder legal no matter how many “states rights” you think they have.

When push comes to shove and the (theoretical majority republican appointed court that will hypothetically overturn Roe vs. Wade) Supreme Court is required to make decisions about the constitutionality of abortion related laws they will eventually find all abortion to be unconstitutional.

I am proposing what I THINK will happen given that all these other things happen. I personally will open an abortion clinic in Canada and a bus service to get my customers there.

P.S. You still ROCK!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

No such thing as state rights? You're trippin. The constitution specifically states any right not explicity granted to the fed is reserved for the states. Get educated, nub.

 

[Hobbit]

For the record, when you mention that I think you are stupid (and now I might), it tells me you are weak and you have a severe inferiority complex. Apparently, you try to make up for it with a falsely inflated ego – I do not think about you or consider your level of stupidity when I write posts. Sorry – I never mentioned you nor did I reply to one of your posts in this thread.

Obviously you are just trying to argue with me because you hope to find some debate you feel you can win – I had no idea you could not handle debate or the idea you might be wrong, so poorly. Good luck with your personal problems. Maybe you should start a thread asking for help.

OK “genius” – The overturning of Roe vs. Wade will not DIRECTLY make abortion illegal because the court does make laws – DUH! In the future (apparently I must be exact for you), after Roe vs. Wade has been overturned and when a case regarding the constitutionality of abortion law is being heard by the court, the court they will decide in favor of the constitutionality of the law – no mention of states rights (again they do not exist anyway). Eventually, the court will simply say abortion is unconstitutional and this will supersede any (non-existent) "states rights". This will have NOTHING to do with “states rights”. It will be a court decision about abortion. The first step will be overturning Roe vs. Wade. I hope this is clear enough for you. I do not have time to detail a complete version of the future that includes all the hypothetical cases and decisions and how this leads to abortion being illegal.

Here is a quick summary:

Overturn Roe vs. Wade --> one state formally legalizes abortion (could be many) --> Supreme Court case about this law (could be many) --> courts says abortion is unconstitutional (could take a little while) --> no more abortion (not claiming it will happen tomorrow)

Back to my post:

Like you said, "it overrode the states' authority to decide their own laws." And to repeat myself this actually happened in 1865. The federal government will NOT 'give back' the right to tell states what to do. The fetuses will be given the same rights as you and I – murdering them will be a violation of the law. No state will be allowed to make murder legal no matter how many “states rights” you think they have.

When push comes to shove and the (theoretical majority republican appointed court that will hypothetically overturn Roe vs. Wade) Supreme Court is required to make decisions about the constitutionality of abortion related laws they will eventually find all abortion to be unconstitutional.

I am proposing what I THINK will happen given that all these other things happen. I personally will open an abortion clinic in Canada and a bus service to get my customers there.

P.S. You still ROCK!

The bolded portion is where you're getting fuzzy. For what reason would the Supreme Court decide abortion unconstitutional? Why couldn't they just leave it to the states, like they have with gay marriage, fireworks laws, firearm laws, age of consent, penalities for most crimes, and an enormous list of other things that are still left to the states? Just look at any criminal trial record, unless it involves a federal oranization, the military, or takes place in multiple states, it's tried under state statutes and will read something like "The State of Georgia versus [insert name]."

The War Between the States didn't take away ALL state rights, as you seem to think, just the right to secede and the right to decide the slavery issue themselves.

 

[elephant]

The bolded portion is where you're getting fuzzy. For what reason would the Supreme Court decide abortion unconstitutional? Why couldn't they just leave it to the states, like they have with gay marriage, fireworks laws, firearm laws, age of consent, penalities for most crimes, and an enormous list of other things that are still left to the states? Just look at any criminal trial record, unless it involves a federal oranization, the military, or takes place in multiple states, it's tried under state statutes and will read something like "The State of Georgia versus [insert name]."

The War Between the States didn't take away ALL state rights, as you seem to think, just the right to secede and the right to decide the slavery issue themselves.

The federal government has made clear it wants to control abortion and I believe it will not give rights back to the states. The federal government would like to outlaw gay marriage and they will as soon as they get the chance. One state cannot establish 3 as the age of consent or ban all firearms or legalize drunk driving. Eventually the federal courts would be asked to decide if these types of laws are OK. The states would be forced to step back in line with the federal position, whatever it may be at the time.

To your "The State of Georgia versus [insert name]." I will not attempt to create a hypothetical situation for you to nitpick. You can think of many yourself with your genius IQ. The Supreme Court does hear cases still, doesn't it? If you can commit murder in one state and not in another, I am pretty sure the federal judicial system will get involved - you are right - I am not sure how, but they seem to get involved in significantly less important issues - Schiavo ring any bells?. Then the federal government will decide what can and cannot happen. I happen to think the Supreme Court will uphold the constitutionality of laws against murder. And to be very clear, the Supreme Court will also rule against laws that make murder legal.

Do you really believe the federal government will just hand back the right to decide abortion laws to the states and wash their hands of it forever? I simply do not believe this will happen. Like I said, overturning Roe vs. Wade will not cause all of this instantly, but I believe it is the first step towards the federal government establishing once and for all an official US position on abortion.

You are correct about not ALL states rights have been stripped away - the states still have rights that no one cares about, ones the state should not have and ones they cannot enforce. But let us stick to the topic at hand.

It seems to me we might just disagree about what the federal government might do - not what they can do, but we are discussing the can part. Am I wrong?

 

[Gunny]

There was a war in the US from 1861 to 1865 called the Civil War. When a group of states, the Confederate states, tried to secede from US, the Union states, who, for the record, were fighting against “states rights”, tried to kill all the Confederate citizens, and thus, they, the Confederate states, were stopped from seceding. POOF – no more “states rights”. The right to secede, or, “vote with your feet”, was what kept groups of like minded people living and working together. When the “state” tried to impose taxes or laws with which the people disagreed, they, the citizens, simply left and started a new “state”. Even northern states formally announced their intentions to secede until concessions were made. Enough on history.

HEADLINE, “CIVIL WAR OVER IN 1865 – STATES RIGHTS LOST”

Perhaps you should brush up on the US Consitution, AND the US Civil War. The states did not lose their indivdual right to make laws not expressly given to the Fed by the Constitution because they lost the right to seceed; which, btw, was completely legal until the US decided otherwise by military force.

What will really happen when Roe vs. Wade is overturned?

One state, pick any one, will make abortion illegal. A citizen of that state will want an abortion and with the help of some lawyers get a case heard by the Supreme Court. The court will rule in favor of the state. Now there will be federal precedent for the illegality of abortion. Other citizens in states where abortion is legal will bring cases before every court in the land, and either by using the Supreme Court precedent, or by eventually having the case heard by the Supreme Court, the cases will be ruled in favor of whoever wants to stop abortion. Basically this means no legal abortion.

Assuming much. The Supreme Court could just refuse to hear the case, in which event, the precedent would be that the Supreme Court has decided not to usurp the power delegated to the State by the US Consitution.

Then, Canada and Mexico will setup private abortion clinics and bring Americans over for abortions. They will trade their abortion stocks on NYSE and become rich. Everyone is happy.

Ummm.... yeah.

 

[elephant]

No such thing as state rights? You're trippin. The constitution specifically states any right not explicity granted to the fed is reserved for the states. Get educated, nub.

There are no "real" states rights. After the right to secede was taken away, the vertical system of checks and balances was eliminated. The rights that states still retain are essentially useless.

 

[Gunny]

There are no "real" states rights. After the right to secede was taken away, the vertical system of checks and balances was eliminated. The rights that states still retain are essentially useless.

There ARE still state's rights. They have become impotent as of late since the ACLU and like organizations make careers of circumventing them and using the judges of their choice to usurp authority guaranteed to the states by the Constitution.

Sooner or later, what's come around will go around. It always does.

 

[Annie]

There are no "real" states rights. After the right to secede was taken away, the vertical system of checks and balances was eliminated. The rights that states still retain are essentially useless.

you may disagree, but that doesn't make you correct.

 

[elephant]

Ummm.... yeah.

States have no real rights left. Without the right to secede states essentially have to accept the federal government as the final word on everything. The US is no longer a collection of states that agree to accept the federal government - it is a mass democracy bordering on socialism. The federal government is getting bigger and more authoritative - not smaller. It will not give back rights it has specifically taken from the states and when it gets the chance it will take more away. I just think you are wrong.

I am not assuming any more than the Supreme Court - the made up the right to privacy, then they gave control of this right to the federal government - not the states, and now YOU believe they will just give this made up right to the states? You are naive.

 

[elephant]

There ARE still state's rights. They have become impotent as of late since the ACLU and like organizations make careers of circumventing them and using the judges of their choice to usurp authority guaranteed to the states by the Constitution.

Sooner or later, what's come around will go around. It always does.

There are states rights on paper. The problem they are only on paper they are not exercised by any state and now they have all been assumed by the federal government - why should I think the federal government will start handing them back to the states?

The Constitution reads beautifully, but it ends there.

Do we agree on this or no?