I will take the plunge and attempt to answer, but first I want to clarify or have clarity on a few points.
This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.
The one extra rule I have chosen is that there are no Deflections allowed, the Topic is Islam and not the but but but what about Christians thing. Of course I want all Invites to be cordial with each other, no name calling etc
What exactly does Islam contribute to Western nations that is positive and constructive? We on the Right can think of many reasons why Islam is not compatible with Western values.
Do you mean Islam as an entire religion or Muslims as an immigration group?
We have Pro-Islamists who 98% are on the Left who put forward the mantra that IF Western nations do not accomodate unlimited amounts of Islamists that effectively Western nations are just going to collapse or whatever, that we literally CANNOT do without Islam and Islamists because they contribute such fundamental benefits to Western nations and that without Islam and Islamists it seems that Western nations will not be able to function anymore.
This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here.
Second thing - and this needs clarity. Are you conflating immigration of Muslims with immigration of Islamists? Those are two different things. Are we talking about Muslims or Islamists?
So what exactly are these fundamental benefits that Islam brings? What are the positive and constructive assets that Islam offers Western nations, benefits and assets that according to the Pro-Islamists we cannot do without.
Muslims come from a variety of countries - each of whom can offer benefits, whether it's in the arts, music, architecture, science, or - simply being good law abiding citizens.
Islam as a religion is harder to say, not because it's Islam but because I don't see any religions per se as offering many fundamental benefits to western, democratic governments - they often seem to be in opposition. But I can see some fundamental benefts and they tend to cross the lines of multiple faiths.
Islam offers a way of life that is based on belief in God, the giving of charity, and many codes of conduct that promote good citizenry. I'm sure at this point some one is going to bring up a gigantic post of all the war like quotes in the Koran, but if they are fair - they will also admit there are many good ones that people strive to live by. Islam, when not taken to extremes promotes community, caring for the poor, widows and unfortunate, curteous behavior, and modesty (no spandex muffin tops). How Islam is practiced depends on the culture of the immigrant group.
Islam offers art.
Art Of Iranian Immigrants Reveals The Creative Potential Of Inclusivity | HuffPost
‘A Positive Understanding of Islam’ -
The Art of Vulnerability and an Epidemic of Communal Trauma | Wisconsin Muslim Journal
Music
Cuisine
Ramadan Recipes
Architecture
"Do you mean Islam as an entire religion or Muslims as an immigration group?"
Both this considering that all Muslims adhere to Islam and so as an immigration group bring Islam with them, it is not possible to separate Muslims from Islam they go together.
"This is something I do not agree with. No one is making that claim and I hate arguing based on false premises. Immigration needs to be controlled. No country can sustain unlimited and uncontrolled immigration whether they are Muslim or some other group. I'm not making that argument and neither are any other leftists I know here."
Well 99% of Open Borders ie. NO Borders and Pro-Immigration Organisations are either Leftist or Lean Leftist, there are very few if ANY Right-Wing Conservative organisations that actively promote Open Borders ie. NO Borders and Pro-Immigration of the Muslim type, if you support Open Borders ie. NO Borders that is supporting UNLIMITED Immigration and it's the type of Immigration that seems ONLY to be advocating Non-Christian Immigration into Western nations, in actuality a lot of Syrian Christians for example are not even entertained by these Pro-Immigration Organisations.
"Second thing - and this needs clarity. Are you conflating immigration of Muslims with immigration of Islamists? Those are two different things. Are we talking about Muslims or Islamists?"
There is a difference only on paper, the problem is that as ALL Muslims adhere to Islam there is a fundamental danger they can and will develop into an Islamist, too many instances there have occur where x Muslim who sell z their newspaper for approx 10 years then suddenly is arrested as being part of an Islamist Sleeper Cell. This is the problem with Islam, that ALL Muslims adhere to the philosophy as instructed by the Prophet Mohammed, it is because of this fanatical adherence that ANY ordinary Muslim can very easily be Radicalised.
"Muslims come from a variety of countries - each of whom can offer benefits, whether it's in the arts, music, architecture, science, or - simply being good law abiding citizens."
Yes I know but the problem is you do not know who is the White Hat and who is the Black Hat or when who you thought was a White Hat has become a Black Hat eg. I know of someone who is a Neurosurgeon and for approx six years they had a colleague who happens to be a Muslim and there was NO problem and they were friends and everything was okay until one day they were arrested in a 6AM raid and this because a Sleeper Cell had been monitored and that Muslim who worked with a friend of ours they were in that Sleeper Cell. So how can you determine the White Hat, the Black Hat and the White Hat who has become a Black Hat but you do not know until they are arrested? The situation now is that many do not now trust ANY Muslims.
"Islam as a religion is harder to say, not because it's Islam but because I don't see any religions per se as offering many fundamental benefits to western, democratic governments - they often seem to be in opposition. But I can see some fundamental benefts and they tend to cross the lines of multiple faiths."
I will turn this to the opposite situation. If WE all were in an Islamic Nation, would we be tolerated issuing demands that we are given special rights, that we can wear the clothing we have in Western Nations, that we should be able to eat the foods we want to, that we should be able to drink alcohol, that we should be allowed Freedom of Expression to say Fuck Islam, Fuck the Prophet Mohammed, Death to the Prophet Mohammed etc NO we would NOT be tolerated issuing such demands.
The Muslims come to Western Nations, they issue demands that they have special rights, that their women are covered, that they have Halal foods, that NO alcohol be served in their presence, that they abuse OUR Freedom of Expression and that anyone who even criticises Islam is guilty of Hate Speech etc
"Islam offers a way of life that is based on belief in God, the giving of charity, and many codes of conduct that promote good citizenry. I'm sure at this point some one is going to bring up a gigantic post of all the war like quotes in the Koran, but if they are fair - they will also admit there are many good ones that people strive to live by. Islam, when not taken to extremes promotes community, caring for the poor, widows and unfortunate, curteous behavior, and modesty (no spandex muffin tops). How Islam is practiced depends on the culture of the immigrant group."
Which God not OUR God, their God is Allah, the same Allah they slaughter OUR peoples in the Name Of.
Yes Islam promotes community but a community ONLY for Muslims and Muslim Converts, they deliberately by CHOICE Ghettoize themselves in their own Mini Islamic Nations within Western Nations, I add I am commenting this from purely a Western European perspective, I have not studied how Muslims in America are organised in general although I have read about there in the State of Minnesota it is Somalia v2 and also I have read about what occur in Dearborn in the State of Michigan, both these examples are of huge amounts of Muslims forming their OWN Community of a Mini Islamic Nation.
"Islam offers art. Cuisine. Architecture."
This I know yes, but for multiple Centuries we have existed perfectly and adequately in Western nations with our own art, cuisine and architecture, we do not need Islam being Imported to sustain these things for us.
I have commented many times at this forum about my great admiration for Islamic Architecture and my adoration of Robert Byron's book "The Road To Oxiana" which deals SPECIFICALLY with Islamic Architecture. I have many Persian friends, I've visited Tehran and several other areas including Susa and Shiraz in Iran. I had wanted to visit Iran ever since I read for the first time Robert Byron's book, published in 1937, it's probably one of the best books about travel and Middle Eastern Architecture ever written.
The cover picture of the book, that is a 1911 photograph taken by A.T. Wilson, Shiraz in Winter through the Qur'an Gate. The Qur'an Gate is in the north of Shiraz, Iran, I can't determine from the picture which mountain that is, it's either the Baba Kouhi or the Chehel Maqam.
The Road to Oxiana - Wikipedia
