What do we agree upon?

[Lonestar_logic]

I am an "individual" American, that happens to believe

In "personal" responsibility, ie for my own success or lack thereof

If I choose to wait tables for a lving or become a CEO of a fortune 500 company, that is my choice, both can be hard work and rewarding in different ways

I believe in "hope". That is why I am a conservative. I believe people can be happy if they are "poor". I also believe the opposite

I believe the lefts ideals steal away hope and dreams. That is simply unAmerican

It takes all kinds of people and personalities to make the world go around. but the leftists believe we should all be "uniform" in all our hopes dreams and endeavors. I reject that on it's face

I think that's what everyone strives for, but when people are stuck in the CYCLE of poverty, it's far more difficult when they are unable to even have the choices you speak of. If a baby is born today of an uneducated, already poor mother, perhaps addicted to drugs or alcohol because that's what SHE was born into, that baby isn't going to know any other way of life except what s/he sees eventually on television from the outside looking in. So then the the child 'wants' what he sees but can't have it any other way than to steal it. And round and round it goes. There needs to be much, much more community involvement in parental education as well as forced academic education. Whatever happened to truant officers?

Stuck in a cycle of poverty you say. how does one get unstuck?

I can name you dozens of examples where people who were born into poverty overcame that obstacle and are now wealthy people. As a matter of fact almost two-thirds of the world's 946 billionaires made their fortunes from scratch, relying on grit and determination, and not good genes.

Fifty of these self-made tycoons are college or high school dropouts. The most famous billionaire dropout is Microsoft's Bill Gates, who finally got his honorary degree from Harvard University in June, 30 years after quitting the prestigious school to sell software. ''I did the best of everyone who failed,'' joked the world's richest man in his official graduation address. With failure like that, who needs success?

Other billionaires, such as media maven Oprah Winfrey, made their fortunes against far greater odds. Born in rural Mississippi, she spent her early years living in poverty on her grandmother's farm. Wanting a way out, she moved to Wisconsin to be with her mother, but was sexually molested by her male relatives. At age 14, she reportedly gave birth to a premature baby who died. Only after moving to Nashville to be with her father did her luck finally start to turn.

Liberals such as yourself Maggie always play the "they were born into it" card and that is a very bigoted and close-minded point of view. As I've shown with the example of Oprah, everyone has the opportunities to overcome poverty, it takes hard work and determination, for you to say that people born poor are not capable of being determined or aquiring a strong work ethic is saying that those people are inferior to those that are born into middle or upper class families. And that is wrong.

I myself was born into poverty, dropped out of school at 15, sent to prison at 17, released at 19 and thankfully was granted a full pardon at 25. A few years after my release I found work with Red Adair and through his kindness and generosity, I was able to forge a career for myself. I bought some land, some of which I've sold at a tremendous profit, raised a family and I've never once asked for any govt. assistance. So I beleive if I can make it and all these now billionaires can make it, then any one can.

Those of your ilk seem to condemn them to a life of poverty, as your statement suggest that those "born into (poverty) " don't " know any other way of life". And that is sad.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Hopefully I can get this thread back to where I wanted it. The point here is to let us know if there are any views that you hold that are contrary to your political leanings.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I can name you dozens of examples where people who were born into poverty overcame that obstacle and are now wealthy people. As a matter of fact almost two-thirds of the world's 946 billionaires made their fortunes from scratch, relying on grit and determination, and not good genes.



Could you provide proof of your claim about two-thirds of billionaires making it on their own merit?

 

[nodoginnafight]

I hope you are successful in that attempt cold - there really should be room for at least one thread that is not hijacked by vulgar flameouts.

So this may be a bit redundant, but I'll try to contribute to the spirit of the thread.

I am anti abortion and anti death penalty.
I am in favor of personal responsibility but against "every man for himself"
I am fiscally conservative but believe gay marriage is no one's business other than the couple's.
I favor more gun control but I don't favor doing away with a law-abiding citizens right to own a reasonable gun.
I think a small deficit is nothing to worry about, but I think our current deficits are too big.
I am a Christian who is a steadfast supporter of the seperation of church and state
(I'm not against abortion because I think God is against abortion, I am against abortion because I believe a fetus is a human being that deserves protection under our legal system)

Good luck cold!

 

[nodoginnafight]

I can name several hundred exaples of people who have climbed Mt. Everest - that doesn't mean it is reasonable to expect EVERYONE to be able to do it.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I beleive in a woman's right to CHOOSE what happenes with her own body.....

I am against the death penalty because if we kill only ONE innocent person we are ALL complicent in a MURDER....

I am against any further gun control laws and we should enforce the laws on the books rather than make any more laws......

I am for securing ALL FOUR boarders and YES there are FOUR boarders......Our Coast Guard is WOEFULLY under funded with out dated fleet....

I am agnostic but I respect people of FAITH but detest those who wish to FORCE their religion down other people's throats.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I beleive in a woman's right to CHOOSE what happenes with her own body.....

I do too - until it negatively impacts another human being.

I am agnostic but I respect people of FAITH but detest those who wish to FORCE their religion down other people's throats.

I am a CHRISTIAN who detests those who wish to force their religion down other people's throats.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I like you nodog because you present your views in a fair and calm manner. Like I said I do respect people of FAITH and you seem like a person who understands the diff between FAITH and RELIGION.

 

[MaggieMae]

I am an "individual" American, that happens to believe

In "personal" responsibility, ie for my own success or lack thereof

If I choose to wait tables for a lving or become a CEO of a fortune 500 company, that is my choice, both can be hard work and rewarding in different ways

I believe in "hope". That is why I am a conservative. I believe people can be happy if they are "poor". I also believe the opposite

I believe the lefts ideals steal away hope and dreams. That is simply unAmerican

It takes all kinds of people and personalities to make the world go around. but the leftists believe we should all be "uniform" in all our hopes dreams and endeavors. I reject that on it's face

I think that's what everyone strives for, but when people are stuck in the CYCLE of poverty, it's far more difficult when they are unable to even have the choices you speak of. If a baby is born today of an uneducated, already poor mother, perhaps addicted to drugs or alcohol because that's what SHE was born into, that baby isn't going to know any other way of life except what s/he sees eventually on television from the outside looking in. So then the the child 'wants' what he sees but can't have it any other way than to steal it. And round and round it goes. There needs to be much, much more community involvement in parental education as well as forced academic education. Whatever happened to truant officers?

Stuck in a cycle of poverty you say. how does one get unstuck?

I can name you dozens of examples where people who were born into poverty overcame that obstacle and are now wealthy people. As a matter of fact almost two-thirds of the world's 946 billionaires made their fortunes from scratch, relying on grit and determination, and not good genes.

Fifty of these self-made tycoons are college or high school dropouts. The most famous billionaire dropout is Microsoft's Bill Gates, who finally got his honorary degree from Harvard University in June, 30 years after quitting the prestigious school to sell software. ''I did the best of everyone who failed,'' joked the world's richest man in his official graduation address. With failure like that, who needs success?

Other billionaires, such as media maven Oprah Winfrey, made their fortunes against far greater odds. Born in rural Mississippi, she spent her early years living in poverty on her grandmother's farm. Wanting a way out, she moved to Wisconsin to be with her mother, but was sexually molested by her male relatives. At age 14, she reportedly gave birth to a premature baby who died. Only after moving to Nashville to be with her father did her luck finally start to turn.

Liberals such as yourself Maggie always play the "they were born into it" card and that is a very bigoted and close-minded point of view. As I've shown with the example of Oprah, everyone has the opportunities to overcome poverty, it takes hard work and determination, for you to say that people born poor are not capable of being determined or aquiring a strong work ethic is saying that those people are inferior to those that are born into middle or upper class families. And that is wrong.

I myself was born into poverty, dropped out of school at 15, sent to prison at 17, released at 19 and thankfully was granted a full pardon at 25. A few years after my release I found work with Red Adair and through his kindness and generosity, I was able to forge a career for myself. I bought some land, some of which I've sold at a tremendous profit, raised a family and I've never once asked for any govt. assistance. So I beleive if I can make it and all these now billionaires can make it, then any one can.

Those of your ilk seem to condemn them to a life of poverty, as your statement suggest that those "born into (poverty) " don't " know any other way of life". And that is sad.

You speak of only a few success stories, including your own, out of millions of horror stories. I never mean to imply that those people should not TRY to pull themselves out of poverty; I simply state the facts that there are far too many to just ignore and hope the problem will go away on its own if they just straightened out. How we deal with those millions is THE PROBLEM, not the fact that they are individually, as human beings, fully capable of achieving loftier goals if given the opportunity. And if you re-read what I said, I didn't once mention "government assistance." Success stories in inner-city ghettos often result from community action, a whole lot of volunteer effort, and allocation of LOCAL funds to support basic educational tools necessary for very poor people to have better lives.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I like you nodog because you present your views in a fair and calm manner. Like I said I do respect people of FAITH and you seem like a person who understands the diff between FAITH and RELIGION.

darn cold, I'm blushing - but thanks seriously. I know this just sounds like reciprocal BS, but seriously - I enjoy reading your posts and kicking it around with you - we disagree on some stuff, but you are always articulate and well-reasoned.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I can name you dozens of examples where people who were born into poverty overcame that obstacle and are now wealthy people. As a matter of fact almost two-thirds of the world's 946 billionaires made their fortunes from scratch, relying on grit and determination, and not good genes.



Could you provide proof of your claim about two-thirds of billionaires making it on their own merit?

Sure.

Self-made Billionaires - AOL Money & Finance

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Thanks nodog.....I have to go to work try to keep this thread going in the way in which I posted it. Have a great day all and do try to treat each other well.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I can name several hundred exaples of people who have climbed Mt. Everest - that doesn't mean it is reasonable to expect EVERYONE to be able to do it.

Why can't everyone do it? If they're physically fit, they work hard and remain determined why couldn't they climb Mt. Everest?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Sweet Lone good site.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well I myself am hoping to turn my finacial life around......Back to school after 20 years. Oh and working full time to support myself and pay my mortgage.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Thanks nodog.....I have to go to work try to keep this thread going in the way in which I posted it. Have a great day all and do try to treat each other well.

I'll try to help in my own humble way (sometimes that may mean my best effort is to just keep my mouth shut).

But I really like the premise of this thread. I think when we can sit down and do an honest inventory, we find that NOBODY really matches up exactly with the pigeon holes we try to cram each other into. Discussing and accepting this helps us relate to each other as individuals and not as "pure examples" of political stereotypes that really do not exist in the real world.

 

[MaggieMae]

Thanks nodog.....I have to go to work try to keep this thread going in the way in which I posted it. Have a great day all and do try to treat each other well.

I'll try to help in my own humble way (sometimes that may mean my best effort is to just keep my mouth shut).

But I really like the premise of this thread. I think when we can sit down and do an honest inventory, we find that NOBODY really matches up exactly with the pigeon holes we try to cram each other into. Discussing and accepting this helps us relate to each other as individuals and not as "pure examples" of political stereotypes that really do not exist in the real world.

I agree. I even noticed that a few of those who jumped right into typical rants toned it down and offered up some good debatable points. [Winking at LoneStar...]

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I think that's what everyone strives for, but when people are stuck in the CYCLE of poverty, it's far more difficult when they are unable to even have the choices you speak of. If a baby is born today of an uneducated, already poor mother, perhaps addicted to drugs or alcohol because that's what SHE was born into, that baby isn't going to know any other way of life except what s/he sees eventually on television from the outside looking in. So then the the child 'wants' what he sees but can't have it any other way than to steal it. And round and round it goes. There needs to be much, much more community involvement in parental education as well as forced academic education. Whatever happened to truant officers?

Stuck in a cycle of poverty you say. how does one get unstuck?

I can name you dozens of examples where people who were born into poverty overcame that obstacle and are now wealthy people. As a matter of fact almost two-thirds of the world's 946 billionaires made their fortunes from scratch, relying on grit and determination, and not good genes.

Fifty of these self-made tycoons are college or high school dropouts. The most famous billionaire dropout is Microsoft's Bill Gates, who finally got his honorary degree from Harvard University in June, 30 years after quitting the prestigious school to sell software. ''I did the best of everyone who failed,'' joked the world's richest man in his official graduation address. With failure like that, who needs success?

Other billionaires, such as media maven Oprah Winfrey, made their fortunes against far greater odds. Born in rural Mississippi, she spent her early years living in poverty on her grandmother's farm. Wanting a way out, she moved to Wisconsin to be with her mother, but was sexually molested by her male relatives. At age 14, she reportedly gave birth to a premature baby who died. Only after moving to Nashville to be with her father did her luck finally start to turn.

Liberals such as yourself Maggie always play the "they were born into it" card and that is a very bigoted and close-minded point of view. As I've shown with the example of Oprah, everyone has the opportunities to overcome poverty, it takes hard work and determination, for you to say that people born poor are not capable of being determined or aquiring a strong work ethic is saying that those people are inferior to those that are born into middle or upper class families. And that is wrong.

I myself was born into poverty, dropped out of school at 15, sent to prison at 17, released at 19 and thankfully was granted a full pardon at 25. A few years after my release I found work with Red Adair and through his kindness and generosity, I was able to forge a career for myself. I bought some land, some of which I've sold at a tremendous profit, raised a family and I've never once asked for any govt. assistance. So I beleive if I can make it and all these now billionaires can make it, then any one can.

Those of your ilk seem to condemn them to a life of poverty, as your statement suggest that those "born into (poverty) " don't " know any other way of life". And that is sad.

You speak of only a few success stories, including your own, out of millions of horror stories. I never mean to imply that those people should not TRY to pull themselves out of poverty; I simply state the facts that there are far too many to just ignore and hope the problem will go away on its own if they just straightened out. How we deal with those millions is THE PROBLEM, not the fact that they are individually, as human beings, fully capable of achieving loftier goals if given the opportunity. And if you re-read what I said, I didn't once mention "government assistance." Success stories in inner-city ghettos often result from community action, a whole lot of volunteer effort, and allocation of LOCAL funds to support basic educational tools necessary for very poor people to have better lives.

The problem is thinking you can eradicate poverty, it will never happen. There is always going to be those people that just don't want to put forth the effort it takes to get an education, get a job and lead productive lives. The only possible way to minimize the numbers of people living in poverty is to try and break the cycle with the newest generation and it has to start in the schools.

Personally I would stop every welfare program that exist because I feel these programs do nothing but enable the poor to remain poor. And the system is probably the most abused system we have. When I see people buying groceries with food stamps, then driving away in a brand new Escalade, something isn't right. Without a govt. handout these people would be forced to go to work and stop relying on the govt. to assist them.

 

[VaYank5150]

Personally I would stop every welfare program that exist because I feel these programs do nothing but enable the poor to remain poor. And the system is probably the most abused system we have. When I see people buying groceries with food stamps, then driving away in a brand new Escalade, something isn't right. Without a govt. handout these people would be forced to go to work and stop relying on the govt. to assist them.

While I completely agree that these programs are the most abused in the country, unlike yourself, I do have a heart and know that there truly are people in our country who rely on them. Shamefully, many of our Veterans do. To shut these people out because our government is too big to properly control the program is, IMHO, simply wrong.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I can name several hundred exaples of people who have climbed Mt. Everest - that doesn't mean it is reasonable to expect EVERYONE to be able to do it.

Why can't everyone do it? If they're physically fit, they work hard and remain determined why couldn't they climb Mt. Everest?

Lonestar, we have gotten off on the wrong foot (imho) on these boards and I will accept my share of the blame for that. If I agree to disagree with you respectfully (but sometimes ardently) will you make the same effort?

As to the "why can't everyone do it" question you ask of my Mt. Everest analogy, I would have to respond that some people are just not equipped to climb Mt. Everest no matter how hard they try. Maybe they've had a leg amputated or they have some other physical limitation that prevents them from doing it.

That same principle applies (imho) to many people who are trying to climb social and economic mountains. I believe that there are many contributing factors that make achieveing these goals unrealistic or impossible for some. I'll acknowledge that pure and simple laziness is a contributing factor for some, but I think we have to recognize that sometimes laziness is NOT the issue.

And for these folks - the ones who are willing to do the work but who need a higher level of support - well .... it's THEIR government too and I see absolutely no problem when we, as a society, decide that we want to help them with a higher level of support.

It's a matter of degrees. Personally, I like to teach a guy to fish rather than just giving him a few fish every day. But I cannot advocate "every man for himself." My opinion is that when mankind becomes nothing more than sharks with legs, then maybe we don't deserve the blessings we have been given.