what determines whether a person goes to heaven or not?

[koshergrl]

Except you haven't read the text. You don't know if the text alone can convict you because you haven't read it. To say "I determined that it's not believable based on the text alone" is at worst, disengenuous, at best, just ignorant, when you ADMITTEDLY haven't read the text.

 

[KevinWestern]

Except you haven't read the text. You don't know if the text alone can convict you because you haven't read it. To say "I determined that it's not believable based on the text alone" is at worst, disengenuous, at best, just ignorant, when you ADMITTEDLY haven't read the text.

Kosh, at least try here, lol.

Give me some examples of proof. This is a debate forum. My stance is that the Bible is a text filled with stories, and there is no way outside of the Bible (which is essentially a collection of word of mouth stories) to prove the validity of many of those more miraculous events.

I posed a question; if I were to tell you that 25 years someone jumped over my house with magic shoes, and had a nicely written story about it - would you just take my word for it and consider it true?

If not, why? What's holding you back from taking the plunge into full belief?

Irish went the prophecy route, which is interesting and can be somewhat convincing. However, I think that approach is flawed because many religions have presented to us accurate prophecies.

 

[Avatar4321]

Just so that we have this in context KG is the "expert" on the "spiritual persons" who will be appointed to be "judges" since she "knows" that she is "qualified" to be one of them. Your "spiritual superiority" overrides the "intellect" of everyone else, right KG?

If God exists, it is more plausible that someone who believes in Him, follows Him and calls themselves His children have more of a right to speak about Him than those who don't. Wouldn't you agree?

By what basis do you think you are an expert over people who read His words in Church, get advanced degrees in Bible education, write large volumes and dedicate their whole lives to the study of the Bible?

I have over 70 feet of academic Christian books and have been a Christian studying the Bible every day verse by verse for over 30 years. I stopped counting the megabytes of articles that I have written over the last 12 years. What chance does a non-Christian have over a full time Christian? I have a friend who has at least two years of Greek and his understanding of what the Bible words and verses mean is uncanny.

I suppose if I put up a pastor's test on the Bible and asked you to write 500 words on different topics, you would have more Biblical things to say than the pastors, right?

Since you say you're so knowledgeable, tell us, what proof do you have that the bible isn't anything more than the word of the men who wrote it? And if god is so great, why do we need a book to find it? Does that mean that people and cultures that don't read, can't find god?

Cultures that don't read, not that there are many left in the world, become literate when they recieve the Word of God.

 

[Bumberclyde]

If God exists, it is more plausible that someone who believes in Him, follows Him and calls themselves His children have more of a right to speak about Him than those who don't. Wouldn't you agree?

By what basis do you think you are an expert over people who read His words in Church, get advanced degrees in Bible education, write large volumes and dedicate their whole lives to the study of the Bible?

I have over 70 feet of academic Christian books and have been a Christian studying the Bible every day verse by verse for over 30 years. I stopped counting the megabytes of articles that I have written over the last 12 years. What chance does a non-Christian have over a full time Christian? I have a friend who has at least two years of Greek and his understanding of what the Bible words and verses mean is uncanny.

I suppose if I put up a pastor's test on the Bible and asked you to write 500 words on different topics, you would have more Biblical things to say than the pastors, right?

Since you say you're so knowledgeable, tell us, what proof do you have that the bible isn't anything more than the word of the men who wrote it? And if god is so great, why do we need a book to find it? Does that mean that people and cultures that don't read, can't find god?

Cultures that don't read, not that there are many left in the world, become literate when they recieve the Word of God.

So what happens if someone doesn't read and can't figure out the bible? Do they automatically go to hell?All illiterate peeps go to hell?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Just so that we have this in context KG is the "expert" on the "spiritual persons" who will be appointed to be "judges" since she "knows" that she is "qualified" to be one of them. Your "spiritual superiority" overrides the "intellect" of everyone else, right KG?

If God exists, it is more plausible that someone who believes in Him, follows Him and calls themselves His children have more of a right to speak about Him than those who don't. Wouldn't you agree?

By what basis do you think you are an expert over people who read His words in Church, get advanced degrees in Bible education, write large volumes and dedicate their whole lives to the study of the Bible?

I have over 70 feet of academic Christian books and have been a Christian studying the Bible every day verse by verse for over 30 years. I stopped counting the megabytes of articles that I have written over the last 12 years. What chance does a non-Christian have over a full time Christian? I have a friend who has at least two years of Greek and his understanding of what the Bible words and verses mean is uncanny.

I suppose if I put up a pastor's test on the Bible and asked you to write 500 words on different topics, you would have more Biblical things to say than the pastors, right?

Claims of expertise are meaningless without substantiation. Since verification is next to impossible via the internet anyone can essentially claim to have advanced academic education on any subject whatsoever. All that counts is what they actually post and how credible they are judged to be by their peers in this forum. So with all due respect your claim to have "over 70 feet of academic Christian books" just comes across as bragging in my opinion. Furthermore I have made no claims as to my own "expertise" either. I was simply exposing the claims of your fellow believer. Now if there is anyone who could make use of your services it would be her. Perhaps you might try following up that lead and see where it gets you. Have a nice day.

 

[koshergrl]

What on earth are you yammering about?

You are comfortable with the fact that you don't make any sense, I take it.

 

[koshergrl]

And why do you keep saying that I've laid any claim of expertise? I haven't. I can speak to what I know...if you see that as a *claim of expertise* I guess that's your problem.

Wow. Deja vous. I believe I have said that to you about 3 times so far in this thread. Stop attributing your insecurities to me, loon. It's not my fault that you view me as an expert.

 

[KevinWestern]

Sort of funny that in a thread regarding "how to get to heaven", folks are insulting one another in a mean spirited way, lol.

Regardless of belief, I'm sure the path to heaven does not begin in that way.

Ironic?

 

[koshergrl]

No, not really ironic at all. There's nothing mean spirited in pointing out (repeatedly) that statements that I never made are being attributed to me, and then criticized.

What is ironic is that people claim there's nothing in a book they haven't read that will justify belief.

THAT'S ironic.

 

[KevinWestern]

No, not really ironic at all. There's nothing mean spirited in pointing out (repeatedly) that statements that I never made are being attributed to me, and then criticized.

What is ironic is that people claim there's nothing in a book they haven't read that will justify belief.

THAT'S ironic.

Kosh... I'm all ears and have an open mind. I also never asked for anyone to justify belief; belief is up to the individual.

I was curious about examples of proof that Jesus is God's Son and could walk on water, etc.

 

[Chuckt]

Since you say you're so knowledgeable, tell us, what proof do you have that the bible isn't anything more than the word of the men who wrote it? And if god is so great, why do we need a book to find it? Does that mean that people and cultures that don't read, can't find god?

If you are concerned about truth then why don't you pay me for my work?

Why? Did Jesus need to be paid as well to explain himself? Or just you?

If you weren't just going to say, "no" to my evidence then why did you just ask for evidence? I've been on message boards with people claiming the opposite of the Bible for 27 years. Words are cheap because people can make up everything but I searched the Christian book catalog and found scholars and books that support the truth and I have a whole library that has refuted what they say. I paid for the truth because sometimes you have to pay people for their expertise and their knowledge. If you were concerned about truth then why don't you put your money into it? The rational is that people won't pay for a lie unless they really have a problem. So I'm asking you why you don't pay for truth?

You can get a Bible for free on the internet and you can get Christian information for free on the internet and other places. My information isn't cheap. My information came from the blood of the martyrs and since it ins't cheap, I should make you and all the skeptics pay me for it because it is valuable.

I gave an educated person a book of Christian evidences. She said,"this is crazy" and threw it in the trash. I was miffed because you can give people the truth researched by people and it gets in the way of their values so of course they will say, "no" to anyone's work so why should I work?

Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

I could get farther with Anthony Flew who was the honest atheist who converted from atheism to deism because he could deal with it more honestly:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VHUtMEru4pQ]Antony Flew on God and Atheism - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Chuckt]

Claims of expertise are meaningless without substantiation. Since verification is next to impossible via the internet anyone can essentially claim to have advanced academic education on any subject whatsoever. All that counts is what they actually post and how credible they are judged to be by their peers in this forum. So with all due respect your claim to have "over 70 feet of academic Christian books" just comes across as bragging in my opinion. Furthermore I have made no claims as to my own "expertise" either. I was simply exposing the claims of your fellow believer. Now if there is anyone who could make use of your services it would be her. Perhaps you might try following up that lead and see where it gets you. Have a nice day.

But you were claiming intellect:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...son-goes-to-heaven-or-not-22.html#post7673257

Can intellect alone write papers on what they did not study? If I gave you a pastor's test where I asked you to write 500 words on the deity of Christ, 500 words on the Holy Spirit, and so on and so on, do you think at the end of the day, your intellect would know more than someone who put the years in and studied? Intellect that just makes arguments is not that impressive in my opinion. For example, Dr. Robert Bowman wrote a paper on the Trinity that has 800 Bible references and it is free online at blueletterbible among other places. Intellect that just argues without knowing anything is a problem because it supposes, just causes work for those who wish to refute and neither knows any better about the truth and there is no incentive to pay for the truth because it isn't worth paying for things that are made up because it isn't logical.

 

[koshergrl]

No, not really ironic at all. There's nothing mean spirited in pointing out (repeatedly) that statements that I never made are being attributed to me, and then criticized.

What is ironic is that people claim there's nothing in a book they haven't read that will justify belief.

THAT'S ironic.

Kosh... I'm all ears and have an open mind. I also never asked for anyone to justify belief; belief is up to the individual.

I was curious about examples of proof that Jesus is God's Son and could walk on water, etc.

There's no "proof". It took place more than 2000 years ago. You either believe it, or you don't. There's no "proof" that Queen Elizabeth made a great speech when the Spanish Armada was parked off the coast of England, either. You either believe what the recorders wrote down..or you don't. Same with Alexander the Great's conquest of the known world. You either believe what people wrote about it...or you don't.

But the way you determine whether or not it is believable is to study the text itself, and history. And you have stated you haven't studied the text. To come to a conclusion about the material without actually having read the material is not open minded, it's just foolish. If you require proof PRIOR to reading it, well then obviously, you're never going to read it.

 

[KevinWestern]

There's no "proof". It took place more than 2000 years ago. You either believe it, or you don't. There's no "proof" that Queen Elizabeth made a great speech when the Spanish Armada was parked off the coast of England, either. You either believe what the recorders wrote down..or you don't. Same with Alexander the Great's conquest of the known world. You either believe what people wrote about it...or you don't.

But the way you determine whether or not it is believable is to study the text itself, and history. And you have stated you haven't studied the text. To come to a conclusion about the material without actually having read the material is not open minded, it's just foolish. If you require proof PRIOR to reading it, well then obviously, you're never going to read it.

Well, just a few comments regarding your statement above.

I tend to take the historian's word that the Queen gave a great speech because folks give great speeches all of the time; it is not an uncommon occurrence. If you told me that 25 years ago you saw a man smoking a cigarette at a bar I'd probably believe that too, as is not too far-fetched a story either.

However, if you were to tell me that 25 years ago a friend levitated for 15 minutes and then cured a man of a terminal disease by waving his hand over his forehead, I would probably not believe you in the absence of additional evidence. Why? Because it's an impossible, unlikely occurrence.

Would you take my word and believe that second story? If no, why do you treat the Bible differently?

Just picking your brain..
.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm convicted in my heart..it's something that comes of being exposed to the bible and actually reading it.

I don't like trying to "convince" people who are admittedly skeptical and not interested enough to read the text themselves. Generally speaking, people who haven't read the bible and who want reams of *evidence* really aren't interested in the bible at all. They typically are primarily interested in ridiculing and mocking those who do hold it dear and believe it. When people are sincerely interested, they show it by, well, showing an interest. Not by simply challenging the believability of the bible.

I believe it because I'm convicted in my heart, and because I can tell when I read ad research the bible that it is beyond the ken of men. Man could not perpetrate such an amazing hoax down through the centuries. Man could not be so consistently right and accurate as the bible is, or so enduring, or so true. Books written by completely different people in different places in a time when communication was so primitive, writing unheard of among the common people, could not ring true with each other and with what history we can verify without the hand of God.

I believe the Messiah and the disciples performed miracles because nobody exposed them as frauds at the time, and thousands of people witnessed their miracles. People died willingly, and still die willingly, rather than recant, including most of christ's disciples, and that speaks to me of THEIR conviction, and tells me the miracles they witnessed were true and real. And the more I read the bible, the more the bible reveals itself to me, and the more convinced I am.

But when someone says up front, "I haven't read it all and I don't see anything there that compels me" well, I know it's pretty much a lost cause. If you were a child, I would direct you to read. But you aren't (presumably) a child. If you think you will serve your *curiosity* without reading the book itself, you're sadly mistaken, and unless you read it yourself, given your attitude, you aren't going to understand why others believe.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Claims of expertise are meaningless without substantiation. Since verification is next to impossible via the internet anyone can essentially claim to have advanced academic education on any subject whatsoever. All that counts is what they actually post and how credible they are judged to be by their peers in this forum. So with all due respect your claim to have "over 70 feet of academic Christian books" just comes across as bragging in my opinion. Furthermore I have made no claims as to my own "expertise" either. I was simply exposing the claims of your fellow believer. Now if there is anyone who could make use of your services it would be her. Perhaps you might try following up that lead and see where it gets you. Have a nice day.

But you were claiming intellect:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...son-goes-to-heaven-or-not-22.html#post7673257

Can intellect alone write papers on what they did not study? If I gave you a pastor's test where I asked you to write 500 words on the deity of Christ, 500 words on the Holy Spirit, and so on and so on, do you think at the end of the day, your intellect would know more than someone who put the years in and studied? Intellect that just makes arguments is not that impressive in my opinion. For example, Dr. Robert Bowman wrote a paper on the Trinity that has 800 Bible references and it is free online at blueletterbible among other places. Intellect that just argues without knowing anything is a problem because it supposes, just causes work for those who wish to refute and neither knows any better about the truth and there is no incentive to pay for the truth because it isn't worth paying for things that are made up because it isn't logical.

For someone claiming to be so erudite you seem to be having a problem with basic comprehension. Try rereading this subpart of the thread again. It was KG who made the allegation about intellect.

As for your bragging about the number of "bible references" that is meaningless because anyone can add references to text. They only count if they support the argument. Unfortunately anything that is a self referencing doesn't count either. The entire bible is self referential. This is all basic academia 101.

Lastly if you cannot prove beyond any doubt that what you are saying is actually the "truth" then anyone with critical thinking skills is going to want to satisfy themselves regarding the anomalies in your position. Not one of the tens of thousands of people who have studied and written about the bible have ever managed to resolve all of the contradictions without invoking "faith". No amount of studying or writing of papers is going to get you into "heaven" if it doesn't exist. Have a nice day.

 

[Chuckt]

For someone claiming to be so erudite you seem to be having a problem with basic comprehension. Try rereading this subpart of the thread again. It was KG who made the allegation about intellect.

As for your bragging about the number of "bible references" that is meaningless because anyone can add references to text. They only count if they support the argument. Unfortunately anything that is a self referencing doesn't count either. The entire bible is self referential. This is all basic academia 101.

Lastly if you cannot prove beyond any doubt that what you are saying is actually the "truth" then anyone with critical thinking skills is going to want to satisfy themselves regarding the anomalies in your position. Not one of the tens of thousands of people who have studied and written about the bible have ever managed to resolve all of the contradictions without invoking "faith". No amount of studying or writing of papers is going to get you into "heaven" if it doesn't exist. Have a nice day.

It isn't basic comprehension because two verses can take five hours of Biblical interpretation or more. What I want you to do is choose two verses and then write down 400 observations on the text. Then tell me you have "comprehension".

You can take all of the Bible references you want and try to gather them with a rake but that doesn't mean you can correctly assemble them and if you did, I know pastors who have been doing it a while who would just stick up their nose at the work.

I took a course on Biblical interpretation and it isn't always as simple as you think.
This is why those who study have ability and those with intellect would fail and make mistakes and I have made mistakes.

I have argued one of those "hammer all he can" atheists and even with his intellect, he didn't understand basic Hebrew or Greek definitions or how to work with a passage to resolve contradictions.

Until you are a believer, the Bible wasn't exactly written for you because you can't fully understand it because it requires God's help to furnish Inspiration, Illumination and Revelation.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Bumberclyde]

If you are concerned about truth then why don't you pay me for my work?

Why? Did Jesus need to be paid as well to explain himself? Or just you?

If you weren't just going to say, "no" to my evidence then why did you just ask for evidence? I've been on message boards with people claiming the opposite of the Bible for 27 years. Words are cheap because people can make up everything but I searched the Christian book catalog and found scholars and books that support the truth and I have a whole library that has refuted what they say. I paid for the truth because sometimes you have to pay people for their expertise and their knowledge. If you were concerned about truth then why don't you put your money into it? The rational is that people won't pay for a lie unless they really have a problem. So I'm asking you why you don't pay for truth?

You can get a Bible for free on the internet and you can get Christian information for free on the internet and other places. My information isn't cheap. My information came from the blood of the martyrs and since it ins't cheap, I should make you and all the skeptics pay me for it because it is valuable.

I gave an educated person a book of Christian evidences. She said,"this is crazy" and threw it in the trash. I was miffed because you can give people the truth researched by people and it gets in the way of their values so of course they will say, "no" to anyone's work so why should I work?

Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

I could get farther with Anthony Flew who was the honest atheist who converted from atheism to deism because he could deal with it more honestly:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VHUtMEru4pQ]Antony Flew on God and Atheism - YouTube[/ame]

I asked for proof that the bible isn't just the word of the men who wrote it. So far you've given me nothing but excuses why you can't say. So you have nothing. Got it.

 

[Chuckt]

I asked for proof that the bible isn't just the word of the men who wrote it. So far you've given me nothing but excuses why you can't say. So you have nothing. Got it.

When you're willing to pay for truth, I might get an honest audience.

What point is there in making a case if I already know you are going to say, "no"?

100+ Books Exploring the Case for Christianity
100+ Books Exploring the Case for Christianity

Let me know when you're done reading

 

[Bumberclyde]

I asked for proof that the bible isn't just the word of the men who wrote it. So far you've given me nothing but excuses why you can't say. So you have nothing. Got it.

When you're willing to pay for truth, I might get an honest audience.

What point is there in making a case if I already know you are going to say, "no"?

100+ Books Exploring the Case for Christianity
100+ Books Exploring the Case for Christianity

Let me know when you're done reading

So out of all the books you've read... give me your 5 best reasons/proofs that your invisible friend exists and makes deformed babies even today.