Was the US Constitution doomed from the start?

[Vastator]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

 

[rightwinger]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

 

[Vastator]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

 

[rightwinger]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

Greatest document in our history

Still holding strong

 

[Vastator]

I love it too. But to say "holding strong" might seem... "debatable".

 

[konradv]

I love it too. But to say "holding strong" might seem... "debatable".

That's why we have the USSC, to settle the debates.

 

[Vastator]

I love it too. But to say "holding strong" might seem... "debatable".

That's why we have the USSC, to settle the debates.

Anybody besides me not find that so comforting lately?

 

[Roadrunner]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

I see repeal of the 14th Amendment, which was passed at bayonet point during Reconstruction, as the solution to the main problems we face.

It has been interpreted to allow the feds to do almost anything they want.

The Great White Fathers had nothing to do with it.

 

[Roadrunner]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

Greatest document in our history

Still holding strong

Yep, despite the criminal Obama/Holder agenda.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

No, many conservatives think the same thing, and they're just as wrong as you.

 

[konradv]

I love it too. But to say "holding strong" might seem... "debatable".

That's why we have the USSC, to settle the debates.

Anybody besides me not find that so comforting lately?

You're basing your discomfort on the idea that The Founders had a "vision" for the document, that we're not following. That notion seems to mirror the "original intent" argument, which I find totally erroneous. I can't imagine and it's statistically improbable that all The Founders had the same vision/intent for the document, so your objections are based on a false premise, IMO.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

No.

Your mistake is not being aware of the fact that the Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law, interpreted by the Supreme Court, as authorized by the doctrine of judicial review and Articles III and VI of the Constitution – consequently the Founding Document is functioning as intend by the Framers, and as best as can be expected given the hyper-partisanism of the last 40 years and the faults and failings of humankind in general.

For example, gay Americans are using the principles enshrined in the Constitution to realize their comprehensive civil liberties. They still have a ways to go, of course, but that's the fault of the fear, ignorance, and hate inherent in the political process, not that of the Constitution and its case law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I love it too. But to say "holding strong" might seem... "debatable".

That's why we have the USSC, to settle the debates.

Anybody besides me not find that so comforting lately?

Yes.

Again, you and others conservatives fearful of change, diversity, and expressions of individual liberty as protected by the Constitution.

 

[Vastator]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

No, many conservatives think the same thing, and they're just as wrong as you.

So for instance had the phrase "all men are created equal", effectively abolished slavery; would the civil war have been prevented? What was plainly worded wasn't even in actual practice at the time. Slavery was.

What of matters of peacefully leaving the Union? Also absent. Surely had you been there, knowing what you know now... you'd be tempted to add maybe a tweak?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

I see repeal of the 14th Amendment, which was passed at bayonet point during Reconstruction, as the solution to the main problems we face.

It has been interpreted to allow the feds to do almost anything they want.

The Great White Fathers had nothing to do with it.

And here we have an example of the ignorance and fear common to most on the right, the ignorance and fear the Constitution prohibits being codified.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

No, many conservatives think the same thing, and they're just as wrong as you.

So for instance had the phrase "all men are created equal", effectively abolished slavery; would the civil war have been prevented? What was plainly worded wasn't even in actual practice at the time. Slavery was.

What of matters of peacefully leaving the Union? Also absent. Surely had you been there, knowing what you know now... you'd be tempted to add maybe a tweak?

“What if” is bad history, bad politics, and bad law.

 

[Vastator]

Umm... Huh?

 

[Vastator]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

No, many conservatives think the same thing, and they're just as wrong as you.

So for instance had the phrase "all men are created equal", effectively abolished slavery; would the civil war have been prevented? What was plainly worded wasn't even in actual practice at the time. Slavery was.

What of matters of peacefully leaving the Union? Also absent. Surely had you been there, knowing what you know now... you'd be tempted to add maybe a tweak?

“What if” is bad history, bad politics, and bad law.

Not if your looking to do it better the next time...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The OP is also making the mistake of perceiving the Constitution as the 'start' of American law and governance, or some sort of 'clean slate,' when in fact that is not the case.

The Constitution is the culmination of centuries of Anglo-American judicial tradition dating back to the Magna Carta and the Assizes of Henry II; it embodies English common law, the jurisprudence of the Colonial courts, and the doctrine of judicial review which form the basis of our modern legal system and this Nation's dedication to the primacy of the rule of law.

As Justice Kennedy explained in Lawrence:

“Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.”

 

[konradv]

Was watching a documentary on the life of Thurgood Marshall and it had a part that applies here. He took the case of a black man who was not admitted to the U of MD Law School solely because, as a letter from the dean stated, Negroes were barred from admission. Marshall argued that the state must enforce Plessy v Ferguson of "separate but equal" fame. Since MD didn't have a law school for blacks, the school was forced by the court to admit the plaintiff. That's the beauty of the document, as is. A good ruling can obtained from a bad precedent. My objection to changing it, by anything but amendments, is that we could easily end up with something much worse, despite the warts of the current document.l