Wake Up America

[wonderwench]

In response to the Oil tax - the proponents of world government are continually seeking some way to create a permanent tax base to fund the bureaucracy. Such a tax would do nothing but provide permanent employment for the world government types.

Given the disastrous administration the UN provided for Saddam's Food for Oil program, we don't need another experiment in this area.

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by Bry

"Socialism is a very big idea, with many possibilities for realization. What the 20th century has demonstrated is that ONE of those possibilities leads to totalitarianism. "

Actually it would be two forms if you count the protectionist NASDP. Socialism as a big idea will always require authoritarianism to come about. And then it will fail because it is blind. To say that the USSR is invalid because of Stalin neglects to mention Kruschev. Hmm, and communist China. NK?

As for small idea socialism... France and Germany are doing very well meeting their budgets, even though they haven't engaged in war yet. /tongue in cheek

One of the greatest blunders of of the 20th century has been to separate normally functioning governments into socialism or capitalism. An efficient government contains elements of both but swears to neither.

Welcome to the board Sitarro

 

[sitarro]

Thanks all , for the welcome ,
I've been reading you guys for awhile now and I have to compliment almost all for the intelligence and etiquette shown most of the time on this board . It's vastly superior to the other boards I have visited .
Being a guy that is approaching the half century mark very soon , I remember a time in the sixties and early seventies when like minded people gathered to live in collectives , mostly on the left coast . They called these groups communes . Most didn't last for more than a few months before the people that did most of the work threw out the bums that sat around getting stoned and or drunk all of the time. What I have never understood about the typical utopian is how they could be so naive as to believe that a country could operate under these same ideas when a small collective or even a family has a hard time maintaining this life style . I find it easier to understand when it comes from a young idealist but anyone over twenty should know better . "Can't we all just get along ?" , no we can't , it not in our nature . I come from a family of eight highly educated people . We argue all of the time , at any given moment at least two brothers aren't talking to each other , and I consider us a close knit family . How can anyone with any sense believe that all races and cultures could agree on anything without the threat of violence from the more powerfiul of the planet .

 

[kcmcdonald]

couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Bry]

Just a brief reply to this disheartening turn of the dialogue toward unsupported and unsupportable populistic diatribe and allegation. Sitarro, you can stick your offer to buy me a ticket out of the US up your ass. You have single handedly invented a false enemy and demonstrated how tough you can talk to it. I guess that does merit the applause it received.

If you go back and read my posts (the only ones in this thread that might conceivably be misconstrued as "utopian") you will realize that I did not recommend any particular system but only suggested that the current state of the capitalist hegemony leaves some things to be desired and it is only a fool that would dismiss theoretical tradition on the propagandistic grounds of Socialism=Communism = Soviet Union = Utopianism=Evil. In fact, you practically conflate "utopianism" with anything that is not the status quo in the USA which, coming from such a highly educated family of eight, I would expect you to realize is patently absurd. Anytime you feel like you might spare us your substitution of thoughtful and knowledgable argument for an analysis of your dysfunctional family and aggressive invitations to get in line or leave, let me know.

nbdysfu: including the NASDP among socialist projects is like including Cuba in capitalist projects. Kruschev is, rather obviously, a product of the system organized by Stalin, therefore not a new example. China and NK fall under previously discussed versions of totalitarianism. As for your insightful tongue and cheek analysis of small socialism, the almighty dollar is currently the Euro's bitch, even as the already pathetic trade deficit carried for decades by the US WORSENS. Yet you do manage to salvage something of your "argument":

One of the greatest blunders of of the 20th century has been to separate normally functioning governments into socialism or capitalism. An efficient government contains elements of both but swears to neither.

I think that was my point: it is stupid to dismiss any and all theory than might be described even remotely as "socialist" by saying that the Soviet Union didn't work. Nothing more, nothing less.

WW: it would be nice if you would share some of your monopoly on common sense evaluation. Regardless, capitalism has claimed more than its fair share of victims, and "centralizing political power and economic decisions" is precisely what I was criticizing as I said that "socialism" is not exhausted by the totalitarian "communist" regimes of the 20th century. Conversely, in the US, political and economic power IS centralized in big corporations and that centralization is increasing.

Meanwhile, disparity of wealth is growing in the US. Jobs are being exported. Power, already concentrated in Corporate (profit) interests, is currently being reinforced rather than checked. While anyone would agree that economic interests must be considered, profit motive does not deserve the priveleged position in policy creation that it currently enjoys in the US. Anyone can see that this trend increases tensions between the upper class and the masses, and such tension is always the precondition for violent confrontation, a phenomenon which can already be seen increasingly in the streets and cities of the US. You want solutions? I've offered a few. Rethink this imbalanced system, take a few hints from Marx (whose seminal analysis of economic forces most of you quite obviously aren't the slightest bit familiar with), and put a leash on the corporations.
In so doing, you will force Marx to be wrong. You will alter what he saw as the inalterable march of history. And that, in the end, is what I am arguing for.

Sorry if anyone finds this response insulting. I feel that what I offered politely as a sincere and thoughtful contribution and observation was not only rudely and contemptuously dismissed, but was taken as an opportunity by some for a good bit of jocular back slapping and self congratulation. It's fine to disagree, but at least have the decency of presenting arguments and spare me the insults of "waste of space", etc. I'm not the only one here that thinks the board benefits from open and respectful dialogue and loses in as much as it resembles just another site for the right to slap each other on the back and say "why don't those liberals just leave".

 

[sitarro]

Gee Wiz Bry ,
Your right , you are the all knowing all seeing expert on this board .
I'm curious Bry , have you ever gone outside ? Have you ever actually conversed with another human being or do you just speak at us , the unwashed masses . You display all of the classic signs of the "book smart" asshole that doesn't have the common sense to close his mouth when he stares up at the rain (Bill Clinton ?).
Unlike you and Algore , I live in the real world with my feet firmly placed in reality . Because I have spent the last fifty years "doing" instead of studying what others feel we should do , I think I have a better idea of how humans really are than some pseudointellectual jerk that feels a need to waste everyone's time pushing philosophy 101. I get it Bry , you can read , is your next stroke of genius going to be the proclamation that all guns should be banned in this country ? How about the banning of the personal use of the internal combustion engine , Algore in his infinite wisdom pushed that . He would have us all riding buses .
We are not robots Bry . You and superior beings like yourself can't program the human race to act the way you want us to . I don't want to act the way you want us to . I like my life and my country . Our poorest poor would be rich in a large portion of this world .
I have an idea for you Bry . Instead of reading about how this world should be , step outside and do something . Start a business and find out what it is like to interview and hire people to work for you . Get a feeling what it is like to see people you are paying , sitting at a computer you pay for , on the internet service you provide , writing bullshit on message boards instead of performing the job they are being payed to do . Pay all of the payroll taxes , deal with the minutia of government forms and regulations . Find out how much fun it is to participate in our economy .
You remind me of most of the tenured college professors I was unlucky enough to be forced to endure . A gaggle of windbags that had never "done", only taught how, according to some book . Not quite the same as "doing".
My best friend is from France and majored in Philosophy and even he understands that it is mostly masturbation of the mind with very little use in the real world. That is why he left France and is working on becoming a citizen here in the USA . He saw three years ago the opportunity that exists here and never wanted to go back to the semisocialist country he is from , one that is filled with intellectuals that are sure they know how things should be .
But you know better don't you Bry?










the

 

[freeandfun1]

Hey, Sitarro......

Was the picture in your AVATAR taken at the IWCE in Las Vegas a couple of years back???? I think it was......

LOL funny!

 

[sitarro]

Free ,
It was shot in Vegas , but it was at least 12 years ago at the National Art Materials Trade Association meeting at the Hilton Convention Center . Good eye . lol

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by Bry
WW: it would be nice if you would share some of your monopoly on common sense evaluation. Regardless, capitalism has claimed more than its fair share of victims, and "centralizing political power and economic decisions" is precisely what I was criticizing as I said that "socialism" is not exhausted by the totalitarian "communist" regimes of the 20th century. Conversely, in the US, political and economic power IS centralized in big corporations and that centralization is increasing.

It is not capitalism which has claimed victims - it is those who abuse the system by engaging in fraud and coercion that have done the harm.

You are incorrect about "socialism" not being exhausted. Througout the 20th century, one can find failure after failure after failure - the body count is astronomical.

Suggested reading:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM


The most lethal regimes ever shared one thing in common - collectivism favored over individualism.

 

[freeandfun1]

Sitarro...

For a minute there, I thought I was busted! lol

About three or four years ago we hired two show girls to work our booth in Las Vegas.... I live there, and our company is based there, so I thought maybe you were in the wireless biz also...

Take care...

 

[Bry]

Sitarro:
Thanks for the palm read, dick. If only you could tear yourself away from your curious fascination with character assassination of ME (really, I'm flattered) mixed with sordid confessions about you and your best French friend....

I get it man, you're a short guy. It's all right.


WW:

It is not capitalism which has claimed victims - it is those who abuse the system by engaging in fraud and coercion that have done the harm.

You are incorrect about "socialism" not being exhausted. Througout the 20th century, one can find failure after failure after failure - the body count is astronomical.

Suggested reading:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

Thanks for the reading recomendation, I'm on it. the thesis of the book is that democracies are less directly violent than other systems. Ever heard of socialist democracy? Socialism, as I have pointed out elsewhere on this board, is a system of economics, not a system of government. The Bolschevic and Maoist schools, predicated on the assumption that the class struggles could be dramatically accelerated through revolution, evidently got something wrong, but they were just two schools.

Meanwhile, to say that capitalism has not claimed victims, but rather the victims belong to those that would abuse the system is disingenuous. Was the testing of nuclear bombs on civilian populations in Japan an abuse? The chemical leak in Bhopal? Support of dictators around the world? The toll of self-interested pragmatism is incalculable not just because of it's secrecy, but because it is usually not direct.

You say I'm incorrect about "socialism" not being exhausted. I'm convinced that you continue to equate "socialism" with a handful of it's most spectacular cases in spite of the fact that , evidently, I have been at pains to separate socialist theory from a handful of totalitarian regimes that claimed socialist underpinnings. The proof? All current systems of government have socialist policies. How then can you say that "socialism" is exhausted? Why do you insist on misrepresenting my case?

Your response and the response of others is reminiscent of McCarthyism. The mere mention of the word "socialism" is enough to set off the defenders of the American way, regardless of how innocuous the context. Meanwhile corporations are racing to incorporate philosophies based on socialism into their internal structure, with employee retreats trying to foster a sense of community within the corporation. Not surprisingly, these innovations yield good results for the bottom line. Capitalism is capable of bending even socialism (though, of course, they don't call it that) to its profit crusade. Too bad even the left in the USA cringes at the mere mention of the word.

 

[sitarro]

Bry,
Ouch , you hit me with the short quip , that is just soooo original . And the innuendo about my friend and I , first rate! I really don't need to do any character assassination , you commit character suicide everytime you throw up on your keyboard , Bry .
How very predictable , a socialist cheerleader who brings out the Mccarthy card . I am curious about one thing . If you live in Madrid , why the hell are you so concerned that America follows Europe's lead in social and economic destruction ? Keep your utopian bullshit in the EU where it belongs . It is nice to know that we don't need to waste money on an airline ticket to France for you , you can just take one of those high tech jackasses that are so plentiful in Spain . If you play your cards right , you might even get lucky .
One other suggestion Bry , close your mouth when it rains , you could drown.

 

[Bry]

but I think I have an internet stalker.

I really don't need to do any character assassination , you commit character suicide everytime you throw up on your keyboard , Bry .

Considering that you've done little more than make speculations about and personal attacks on me since you started posting here, I take the above commentary to be less than self-evident.

The last word is yours, sir. I have no intention of continuing this exchange.

-Bry

 

[sitarro]

It's all about you isn't Bry?
My original post was actually directed at the simplistic utopian ideas that David was throwing out . International oil taxes to fund an International Department of Peace ? The constant self loathing of everything American , like this country has ever come close to doing anything that approaches the vile garbage done for centuries by most of the socalled civilized societies of the world . I am proud of my country , the worst we have done is truely insignificant in comparison, but the greatness we have contributed to the planet overshadows most other nations significantly .
My post was also directed at the utopian stylings of modman , another poster who is constantly having to extract his feet from his mouth .
You Bry , you decided I was talking to you because it is after all , all about you. I hadn't even paid attention to your boorish attempts to push socialism , It has all been pushed before .
It was you who decided to make it personal . . . "Sitarro, you can stick your offer to buy me a ticket out of the US up your ass. " "dysfunctional family" "Thanks for the palm read, dick." "sordid confessions about you and your best French friend" "I get it man, you're a short guy. It's all right."

I may not have posted here before , but I have been reading the posts for six months . I have a better idea of what you are about than you think . It is typical of your type , you go from slinging arrows to playing the victim .
I'm finished with you also Bry , you have nothing to offer .

 

[Ralph Wiggums]

Apparently some people’s vision of the ‘real’ world is where everyone is arrogant and rude to each other. Where they cannot talk to someone they disagree with without attempting to degrade them. If that is truly how you treat people in your real world, I am glad that we do not know each other in mine. I'm sure you reciprocate.

There is a difference between being worldly, and acting like you own it.

 

[sitarro]

Ralph ,
I assume that when you refer to the arrogant and rude , condesending and fabricating people who crucify anyone they disagree with , you are speaking about the clowns that have gone on and on adnauseam in their tyrades against President Bush and all of the neocons that voted for him . The very special people from the left that have repeated the lie that President Bush stole the election . Or the very creative left wingers that refer to our President as a chimp , Nazi , dumb ass , ignorant , uneducated , retarded , war monger , etc. etc. etc. . These "progressives" that push silly , stale ideas and berate you if you can't stay awake while they drone on and on about the direction this country has to go in "or else".
I can't speak for anyone but myself , but I am very bored with these haters of anything American . I love my country and the wonderful things it has done for the world . We are always the first to help others in disasters , we share are scientific and medical breakthroughs , we feed billions , we have worked to control the impact we have on our environment while maintaining a lifestyle that is admired all over the world , we have explored space and the oceans unlike any others , our government doesn't take evrything we earn in taxes , our health care is second to none , we are free to criticize our government without getting thrown into a wood chipper , we are protected by an incredible army of great people in our military , police departments , and fire departments , we are free to believe and practice any religion , and we even try to help people that are our sworn enemies .
I feel sorry for the self proclaimed "progressives " that live in a world of negativety that have nothing constructive to ad to the greatness of our country . That is a world I don't care to be a part of.

 

[Ralph Wiggums]

Actually I was talking about any side that displays a lack of respect when engaged in open debate. Insulting someone with inflammatory barbs while trying to make a point, exhibits an inability of validation skills while exposing a lack of discipline and credibility.

While I agree with you that we do live in one of the best nations around, I do have to disagree with this statement,

like this country has ever come close to doing anything that approaches the vile garbage done for centuries by most of the socalled civilized societies of the world . I am proud of my country , the worst we have done is truely insignificant in comparison, but the greatness we have contributed to the planet overshadows most other nations significantly

Apart from slavery, massacring untold numbers of Native Americans while putting the remainder on undesirable land far away from everyone else, segregation, medical experiments on minorities, our own possession of and actual use of WMD’s on a population, how have we not committed atrocities like the rest of the world has? You chastised Bry for not living in the real world based on his statements that disagree with your philosophy. Passing white-washed history on as credible does not necessarily display a connection to the real world either. The point I am trying to make is very few nations have proven to be above the fray when it comes to atrocious behavior. Believing otherwise is to turn a blind eye on a history that does tend to repeat itself. At the very least I am hoping that history lives up to its reputation this election year.

 

[phadras]

Geeeeeezzzzzzz. More propaganda from the Anti-American David... Hey sonny did you just pick up some Marxist mag or comic book and start spouting this garbage... You sound like a good Stalinist... You are a moron that doesn't have a freakin' CLUE what the hell makes the world work...
This sort of psuedo-intellectual Bullshit used to just come from Bolshevics but since they're all dead I guess you had to take up their ridiculous mantra... Get a cup of coffee drink it deep then apologize to your parents for being a naive dipstick...

These arguments go back to Lenin and before him the father of modern BULLSHIT Karl Marx... So let's see your hammer and sickle.. Oh and by the way you missed an attack religion as "the opiate of the masses"... Geez grow up...

 

[kcmcdonald]

Apart from slavery, massacring untold numbers of Native Americans while putting the remainder on undesirable land far away from everyone else, segregation, medical experiments on minorities, our own possession of and actual use of WMD’s on a population, how have we not committed atrocities like the rest of the world has? You chastised Bry for not living in the real world based on his statements that disagree with your philosophy. Passing white-washed history on as credible does not necessarily display a connection to the real world either. The point I am trying to make is very few nations have proven to be above the fray when it comes to atrocious behavior. Believing otherwise is to turn a blind eye on a history that does tend to repeat itself. At the very least I am hoping that history lives up to its reputation this election year

OK I get America sucks doesn't it, well guess what this great life that you live is because of the "American way" the food on your table and in the cornner store is brought to you buy the American way. Yes we've done bad, slavery, Indians, segrigation, Ect. But hey guess what those problems still go on in the world today. Slavery ended about 140 years ago, segrigation ended about 40 years ago. It took till South africa almost 30 more years than us to abbolish segrigation. WE do bad things yes, but we slove the problem quicker than any other nation in the world. And the WMD thing. Come on it was WW2 we had already lost 500,000 troops and the Japaneis(spelling?) had lost over a million. The Army did an estamite on how many lives would be lost jsut on the ivasion of Kiushu(spelling again, it's the souther most island, not even the one with any major cities) and they said that we would lose at least 1,000,000,000 american soldiers and the japanese would loss at least three times that number(civilian and military) now for one small peice of land it would have costed close to 4 million lives. The two bombs killed less than 500,000. What sounds more humane. Those two bombs ended a war that had already costed 40,000,000 lives. It was not a "barbaric and evil" act. Given time the japaneis would have used it against us. So don't use that as an excuse about how bad and evil we are. were not.
America has done wrong but it has done much better. To nit pick at the bad things we've done over our 200+ years of history and shrug off the good things does a disservice to America. We've never marched armies across the world expanding teritorry(indians aside). We've never gone on the offensive(Iraq aside) and we've never kept any teritory that we've won in a battle. We've given it all back(WW1, WW2, Cuba, Philipines,Kuwait,Iraq, ect...)
We are the Richest and most powerful country in the history of the world and were the most restrained with our power.

 

[tim_duncan2000]

If America sucks so much, then why are you still here? If I hated a place that much I sure as hell would not stay there.

I agree about the A-bomb thing. It was the right choice. Many people in Japan were ready to do whatever it took to defend their homes. Who knows how many would have died.

It does suck what happened to the Native Americans, but look at all other civilizations. Almost all of them have tried to, at one time or another, conquer some other group and they often enslaved some of them too. It doesn't make it right, but people shouldn't pretend that this was a unique situation.

I'm tired of all the people that just focus on all the bad things and spin things a certain way to paint a distorted picture of the US. I'm not saying that the US is perfect, but the US also is not as bad as you say. How would you explain how many immigrants want to come to this country? There not going to India, China, Russia, or many other places.