Just a brief reply to this disheartening turn of the dialogue toward unsupported and unsupportable populistic diatribe and allegation. Sitarro, you can stick your offer to buy me a ticket out of the US up your ass. You have single handedly invented a false enemy and demonstrated how tough you can talk to it. I guess that does merit the applause it received.
If you go back and read my posts (the only ones in this thread that might conceivably be misconstrued as "utopian") you will realize that I did not recommend any particular system but only suggested that the current state of the capitalist hegemony leaves some things to be desired and it is only a fool that would dismiss theoretical tradition on the propagandistic grounds of Socialism=Communism = Soviet Union = Utopianism=Evil. In fact, you practically conflate "utopianism" with anything that is not the status quo in the USA which, coming from such a highly educated family of eight, I would expect you to realize is patently absurd. Anytime you feel like you might spare us your substitution of thoughtful and knowledgable argument for an analysis of your dysfunctional family and aggressive invitations to get in line or leave, let me know.
nbdysfu: including the NASDP among socialist projects is like including Cuba in capitalist projects. Kruschev is, rather obviously, a product of the system organized by Stalin, therefore not a new example. China and NK fall under previously discussed versions of totalitarianism. As for your insightful tongue and cheek analysis of small socialism, the almighty dollar is currently the Euro's bitch, even as the already pathetic trade deficit carried for decades by the US WORSENS. Yet you do manage to salvage something of your "argument":
One of the greatest blunders of of the 20th century has been to separate normally functioning governments into socialism or capitalism. An efficient government contains elements of both but swears to neither.
I think that was my point: it is stupid to dismiss any and all theory than might be described even remotely as "socialist" by saying that the Soviet Union didn't work. Nothing more, nothing less.
WW: it would be nice if you would share some of your monopoly on common sense evaluation. Regardless, capitalism has claimed more than its fair share of victims, and "centralizing political power and economic decisions" is precisely what I was criticizing as I said that "socialism" is not exhausted by the totalitarian "communist" regimes of the 20th century. Conversely, in the US, political and economic power IS centralized in big corporations and that centralization is increasing.
Meanwhile, disparity of wealth is growing in the US. Jobs are being exported. Power, already concentrated in Corporate (profit) interests, is currently being reinforced rather than checked. While anyone would agree that economic interests must be considered, profit motive does not deserve the priveleged position in policy creation that it currently enjoys in the US. Anyone can see that this trend increases tensions between the upper class and the masses, and such tension is always the precondition for violent confrontation, a phenomenon which can already be seen increasingly in the streets and cities of the US. You want solutions? I've offered a few. Rethink this imbalanced system, take a few hints from Marx (whose seminal analysis of economic forces most of you quite obviously aren't the slightest bit familiar with), and put a leash on the corporations.
In so doing, you will force Marx to be wrong. You will alter what he saw as the inalterable march of history. And that, in the end, is what I am arguing for.
Sorry if anyone finds this response insulting. I feel that what I offered politely as a sincere and thoughtful contribution and observation was not only rudely and contemptuously dismissed, but was taken as an opportunity by some for a good bit of jocular back slapping and self congratulation. It's fine to disagree, but at least have the decency of presenting arguments and spare me the insults of "waste of space", etc. I'm not the only one here that thinks the board benefits from open and respectful dialogue and loses in as much as it resembles just another site for the right to slap each other on the back and say "why don't those liberals just leave".
